Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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24-06-2015, 03:04 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(19-06-2015 05:47 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  http://www.evidenceunseen.com/authorship-of-exodus/
You are completely incompetent to even BEGIN to discuss this subject.

And, it seems, not willing to either
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24-06-2015, 06:49 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(24-06-2015 03:04 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(19-06-2015 05:47 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  http://www.evidenceunseen.com/authorship-of-exodus/
You are completely incompetent to even BEGIN to discuss this subject.

And, it seems, not willing to either

Hey! You're talking to a guy that ministers to people and shows them the way and the light!

You watch your mouth and keep that logic and reason with the rest of your atheist heathen buddies. Perhaps you could create some sort of forum website specifically for atheist and take that shit there!

Same goes for you Bucky!
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25-06-2015, 03:30 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(19-06-2015 08:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(18-06-2015 08:46 AM)Banjo Wrote:  Actually archeology has shown the bible got many things wrong. There is no evidence of the exodus. Nothing. This is but one example.

I study Rome. I have been doing so now for 35 years. (Geez I am old). There is a minor detail in the bible that always makes me smile. The Roman soldier giving evidence he left his post when Jesus went missing from the tomb.

Are you aware of the punishment for the desertion of a post by a Roman soldier? Death. And not just any death.

Here is an image.
[Image: tumblr_inline_mr4fuieOKe1qz4rgp.jpg]



It was called fustuarium. A horrible way to die. We know from historic sources that in general, Roman soldiers had little respect for the Jews. So why would this soldier give up his life in this way? For a people he despised? In an outpost that was hated?

It makes no sense. And this is but one example.

As for the bible? It'd be more useful were it to have the recipe for disinfectant. Science discovered that gem. The bible does not even instruct how to raise crops properly or have engineering advice. It has nothing but mythical worthless tales. With a few good lines here and there.

I'm a big fan of Roman and Greek studies as well.

You are understating. It was an entire group of soldiers that were reported as falling asleep on watch and whom all earned the death penalty. However, the Bible also reports the heightened, conspiratorial relations between the Jews and Pilate enhanced over the whole killing Jesus thing, and Occam's razor (and there are Bible statements along these lines) indicates they kept their mouths shut rather than risk bigger trouble from Roman authorities above Pilate.

Put another way, they would have looked stupid in a report saying things like:

* The stone was moved, which weighed tons

* The entire group passed out when angels appeared

* The entire soliders' group allowed the body to leave the tomb

* Etc.

The soldiers earned the death penalty several times over!

Again, you are understating Rome. At the time ONLY the Jews and their "Messiahs" were messing with the Pax Romana. THE TOUGHEST, NASTIEST soldiers in the empire were sent to Judea. And the law was a soldier could compel a Jew to carry his stuff for a mile. What little Nazis they were! So Jesus said, "When people ask you to go a mile, go with them two." Praise God! What a witness that would be from a Jewish Christian to a soldier!

PS. The Exodus objection makes as little sense to me. We know deserts have changed dramatically over the past centuries, new ones created and etc. We know that in a constant desert in modern times like the Sinai, an enduring desert if you will, that sands blow and shift. We know the Jews were nomads living in tents, and the Bible contains entire chapters about the wanderings in the desert, and that all the tabernacle items and personal possessions were to be carried, etc. 2 people or 2 million people, what archaeological remains are you seeking from desert sands from people who pegged tents down 3,500 years ago? That's an argument from silence that is a stretch (tent rope pun intended).

You do know the Jews didn't build ANY permanent structures, not even a temple for God, in the desert wanderings?

Further, even though revisionist try to shift the goal posts, we can see hostile takeover evidence in both ancient Egypt and Israel... how do you think those Egyptian dynasties got shifted? It could have been the Exodus disaster weakened the power base and helped destroy the army...

Overall, the problem you are having is that you are NOT lacking evidence for hundreds of places, people, etc. you are lacking archaeological evidence for miracles. Good luck with that!

"Overall, the problem you are having is that...you are lacking archaeological evidence for miracles."

That's your problem Q, not ours.Shy
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07-07-2015, 09:33 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(19-06-2015 04:59 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(19-06-2015 08:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I'm a big fan of Roman and Greek studies as well.

You are understating. It was an entire group of soldiers that were reported as falling asleep on watch and whom all earned the death penalty. However, the Bible also reports the heightened, conspiratorial relations between the Jews and Pilate enhanced over the whole killing Jesus thing, and Occam's razor (and there are Bible statements along these lines) indicates they kept their mouths shut rather than risk bigger trouble from Roman authorities above Pilate.

Put another way, they would have looked stupid in a report saying things like:

* The stone was moved, which weighed tons

* The entire group passed out when angels appeared

* The entire soliders' group allowed the body to leave the tomb

* Etc.

The soldiers earned the death penalty several times over!

Again, you are understating Rome. At the time ONLY the Jews and their "Messiahs" were messing with the Pax Romana. THE TOUGHEST, NASTIEST soldiers in the empire were sent to Judea. And the law was a soldier could compel a Jew to carry his stuff for a mile. What little Nazis they were! So Jesus said, "When people ask you to go a mile, go with them two." Praise God! What a witness that would be from a Jewish Christian to a soldier!

PS. The Exodus objection makes as little sense to me. We know deserts have changed dramatically over the past centuries, new ones created and etc. We know that in a constant desert in modern times like the Sinai, an enduring desert if you will, that sands blow and shift. We know the Jews were nomads living in tents, and the Bible contains entire chapters about the wanderings in the desert, and that all the tabernacle items and personal possessions were to be carried, etc. 2 people or 2 million people, what archaeological remains are you seeking from desert sands from people who pegged tents down 3,500 years ago? That's an argument from silence that is a stretch (tent rope pun intended).

You do know the Jews didn't build ANY permanent structures, not even a temple for God, in the desert wanderings?

Further, even though revisionist try to shift the goal posts, we can see hostile takeover evidence in both ancient Egypt and Israel... how do you think those Egyptian dynasties got shifted? It could have been the Exodus disaster weakened the power base and helped destroy the army...

Overall, the problem you are having is that you are NOT lacking evidence for hundreds of places, people, etc. you are lacking archaeological evidence for miracles. Good luck with that!

"So Jesus said, "When people ask you to go a mile, go with them two." Praise God! What a witness that would be from a Jewish Christian to a soldier!"

These words were placed in Jesus' mouth by the people who wrote the gospels... and they were linked to the Roman government. This was pure propaganda... intended to get the common Jews obeying their Roman masters. It was part of the "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy" and "dream about heaven" and "don't worry about tomorrow" and "pay your taxes" nonsense.

This spiel is still working today... people like Q... who don't understand the history...say "praise God" in response to a clearly unhistorical piece of propaganda. "God" was the Roman government then; today "he" is, effectively, the hierarchy in churches and governments. “God” keeps commoners bowing to priests, kings, and bureaucrats, the peasants paying their tithes and taxes, women submissive to men, and wayward adolescents obeying their parents. And one of the ways they control the public is by promoting the "word of God."

Q, I invite you to
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds!"
by understanding the real history

The issues you have remain with us:

* You have no proof, textual within the Bible or historical outside the Bible, to prove your assumptions like "Jesus was a Roman"

* The weight of the text doesn't support your theory either - you seem convinced the NT was written to make the Jews obey the Romans - this despite the thousands of verses saying NOT to obey the Roman pantheon of gods and the few verses about obeying government within - this despite the Romans "tricking" the Jews by writing hundreds of doctrines you've already claimed are incompatible with the OT - your theory makes for the worst possible imagined way to "trick" the Jewish people

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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07-07-2015, 09:36 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(19-06-2015 05:46 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(19-06-2015 08:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. JDEP theory is irrelevant as there are Bible codes and prophecies showing that whether teams of redactors or lone authors, the Pentateuch is the word of God. I'm more concerned with the late dates of authorship implied...

2. ...Which are the height of stupidity (not you, the mainline scholars) because the prophets REBUKE PEOPLE FOR NOT FOLLOWING Pentateuch Law. The Law HAS TO be written BEFORE the PROPHETS, ALL OF THEM. THEY ALL MENTION THE LAWS OF MOSES.

3. A quick Google found this page, since you are accusing me of passing wind in the wind... Smile

http://www.evidenceunseen.com/authorship-of-exodus/

So you actually LIED and have nothing of the archeological evidence you claimed had refuted the Documentary Hypothesis. The fact that "prophets mention the law of Moses" in NO WAY proves it was WRITTEN in the form it is today, and YOU have not a shred of evidence it was. But thanks for DEMONSTRATING you have no clue what the Documentary Hypothesis even is. It's the ASSEMBLY of sources. No one says they INVENTED the sources. Your point about Moses is a huge fail. There are no "Bible codes". There are just as many codes found in ANY written material, but thanks for demonstrating the utterly stupid level you operate on. The prophets "prove nothing". It's an utterly circular claim. You FAILED to make any link about *how* they prove what you claim is proven from your idiotic evidence. So .... you're actually reduced to "Bible codes". Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Your pathetic impotent deity is a laugh and a half.

Of course there is archaeological and documentary evidence refuting the JDEP hypothesis. Unfortunately, sometimes it takes a while for mainline scholars to align themselves with certain facts.

You can help yourself, Grasshopper, and others in this instance by recalling JDEP sticks to a much later dating for the Penteteuch then is revealed by the hundreds of place names, people names and etc. verified by documents and archaeology. One such dodge you yourself employed if memory serves (?) is the outrageous claim that "Moses is NOT an Egyptian name" as if there was never a Pharaoh named ThutMOSES.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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07-07-2015, 09:55 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(07-07-2015 09:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  * You have no proof, textual within the Bible or historical outside the Bible, to prove your assumptions like "Jesus was a Roman"

???

I believe Mark's claim is more along the lines of "Jesus was a fictional character created by the Romans".
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07-07-2015, 10:56 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(07-07-2015 09:36 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(19-06-2015 05:46 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So you actually LIED and have nothing of the archeological evidence you claimed had refuted the Documentary Hypothesis. The fact that "prophets mention the law of Moses" in NO WAY proves it was WRITTEN in the form it is today, and YOU have not a shred of evidence it was. But thanks for DEMONSTRATING you have no clue what the Documentary Hypothesis even is. It's the ASSEMBLY of sources. No one says they INVENTED the sources. Your point about Moses is a huge fail. There are no "Bible codes". There are just as many codes found in ANY written material, but thanks for demonstrating the utterly stupid level you operate on. The prophets "prove nothing". It's an utterly circular claim. You FAILED to make any link about *how* they prove what you claim is proven from your idiotic evidence. So .... you're actually reduced to "Bible codes". Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Your pathetic impotent deity is a laugh and a half.

Of course there is archaeological and documentary evidence refuting the JDEP hypothesis. Unfortunately, sometimes it takes a while for mainline scholars to align themselves with certain facts.

You can help yourself, Grasshopper, and others in this instance by recalling JDEP sticks to a much later dating for the Penteteuch then is revealed by the hundreds of place names, people names and etc. verified by documents and archaeology. One such dodge you yourself employed if memory serves (?) is the outrageous claim that "Moses is NOT an Egyptian name" as if there was never a Pharaoh named ThutMOSES.

???

Why are you calling Bucky Ball "Grasshopper"? I am Grasshopper. Bucky Ball and I are in substantial agreement on this issue, but we are two different people.

You don't seem to understand how the flow of time works. If a book refers to something that happened hundreds or thousands of years after the book was supposedly written, we can safely conclude that the book was actually written later. This is, indeed, one of the reasons behind the documentary hypothesis. There is no such restriction in the other direction. Any book is free to refer to anything that happened before the book was written -- whether 5 minutes before or 1000 years before -- with no contradiction whatsoever. I don't know why you don't get that.
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07-07-2015, 03:38 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(07-07-2015 09:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(19-06-2015 04:59 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "So Jesus said, "When people ask you to go a mile, go with them two." Praise God! What a witness that would be from a Jewish Christian to a soldier!"

These words were placed in Jesus' mouth by the people who wrote the gospels... and they were linked to the Roman government. This was pure propaganda... intended to get the common Jews obeying their Roman masters. It was part of the "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy" and "dream about heaven" and "don't worry about tomorrow" and "pay your taxes" nonsense.

This spiel is still working today... people like Q... who don't understand the history...say "praise God" in response to a clearly unhistorical piece of propaganda. "God" was the Roman government then; today "he" is, effectively, the hierarchy in churches and governments. “God” keeps commoners bowing to priests, kings, and bureaucrats, the peasants paying their tithes and taxes, women submissive to men, and wayward adolescents obeying their parents. And one of the ways they control the public is by promoting the "word of God."

Q, I invite you to
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds!"
by understanding the real history

The issues you have remain with us:

* You have no proof, textual within the Bible or historical outside the Bible, to prove your assumptions like "Jesus was a Roman"

* The weight of the text doesn't support your theory either - you seem convinced the NT was written to make the Jews obey the Romans - this despite the thousands of verses saying NOT to obey the Roman pantheon of gods and the few verses about obeying government within - this despite the Romans "tricking" the Jews by writing hundreds of doctrines you've already claimed are incompatible with the OT - your theory makes for the worst possible imagined way to "trick" the Jewish people

Now you are quoting me using a non existent quote. I never said Jesus was a Roman. In fact I've made it very clear that I think Jesus, if he even existed, was a Jewish zealot implacably opposed to Rome's rule. His story was almost certainly invented by Romans, or by people working for the Roman government.

Your lack of willingness, or inability, to understand what others have said is disturbing.

You have said that one of the reasons you are here is to learn. I have seen very little evidence of that.
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07-07-2015, 04:15 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(07-07-2015 03:38 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(07-07-2015 09:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The issues you have remain with us:

* You have no proof, textual within the Bible or historical outside the Bible, to prove your assumptions like "Jesus was a Roman"

* The weight of the text doesn't support your theory either - you seem convinced the NT was written to make the Jews obey the Romans - this despite the thousands of verses saying NOT to obey the Roman pantheon of gods and the few verses about obeying government within - this despite the Romans "tricking" the Jews by writing hundreds of doctrines you've already claimed are incompatible with the OT - your theory makes for the worst possible imagined way to "trick" the Jewish people

Now you are quoting me using a non existent quote. I never said Jesus was a Roman. In fact I've made it very clear that I think Jesus, if he even existed, was a Jewish zealot implacably opposed to Rome's rule. His story was almost certainly invented by Romans, or by people working for the Roman government.

Your lack of willingness, or inability, to understand what others have said is disturbing.

You have said that one of the reasons you are here is to learn. I have seen very little evidence of that.

Jesus's race does not seem applicable at all, unless one follows the notion 0f some form of pantomime played out by god the father (Jehovah).
Marcion held that Jehovah was a lesser ratbag god, and that Jesus was the Universal one. This of course flies in the face of all the religions of the book.
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08-07-2015, 03:34 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(07-07-2015 09:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(19-06-2015 04:59 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "So Jesus said, "When people ask you to go a mile, go with them two." Praise God! What a witness that would be from a Jewish Christian to a soldier!"

These words were placed in Jesus' mouth by the people who wrote the gospels... and they were linked to the Roman government. This was pure propaganda... intended to get the common Jews obeying their Roman masters. It was part of the "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy" and "dream about heaven" and "don't worry about tomorrow" and "pay your taxes" nonsense.

This spiel is still working today... people like Q... who don't understand the history...say "praise God" in response to a clearly unhistorical piece of propaganda. "God" was the Roman government then; today "he" is, effectively, the hierarchy in churches and governments. “God” keeps commoners bowing to priests, kings, and bureaucrats, the peasants paying their tithes and taxes, women submissive to men, and wayward adolescents obeying their parents. And one of the ways they control the public is by promoting the "word of God."

Q, I invite you to
"Emancipate yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds!"
by understanding the real history

The issues you have remain with us:

* You have no proof, textual within the Bible or historical outside the Bible, to prove your assumptions like "Jesus was a Roman"

* The weight of the text doesn't support your theory either - you seem convinced the NT was written to make the Jews obey the Romans - this despite the thousands of verses saying NOT to obey the Roman pantheon of gods and the few verses about obeying government within - this despite the Romans "tricking" the Jews by writing hundreds of doctrines you've already claimed are incompatible with the OT - your theory makes for the worst possible imagined way to "trick" the Jewish people


Q, you wrote
"you seem convinced the NT was written to make the Jews obey the Romans - this despite the thousands of verses saying NOT to obey the Roman pantheon of gods"

It is highly unlikely you're going to understand the following reply, which I write mainly for anyone else who is interested.

Generally speaking, the (usually) educated Roman rulers considered religion, of all types, including their own, a joke. Religion was merely a tool used to control the common people (just as it is today.) The government authorities only insisted the common people worship the Roman gods because that meant the people obeyed Roman rule. The Jews were an exception to the common people... they were not required to worship any Roman god.

So the Roman authors of the new Testament would've been quite relaxed about writing to Jews to not worship the Roman gods. The authors really couldn't care less...so long as the Jews obeyed Roman law and paid Roman taxes.

What is more, there are not "thousands of verses" in the New Testament telling people not to obey the Roman gods. Your imagination is running away with you. Be more careful about what you write.
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