Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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08-07-2015, 10:10 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(07-07-2015 10:56 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(07-07-2015 09:36 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Of course there is archaeological and documentary evidence refuting the JDEP hypothesis. Unfortunately, sometimes it takes a while for mainline scholars to align themselves with certain facts.

You can help yourself, Grasshopper, and others in this instance by recalling JDEP sticks to a much later dating for the Penteteuch then is revealed by the hundreds of place names, people names and etc. verified by documents and archaeology. One such dodge you yourself employed if memory serves (?) is the outrageous claim that "Moses is NOT an Egyptian name" as if there was never a Pharaoh named ThutMOSES.

???

Why are you calling Bucky Ball "Grasshopper"? I am Grasshopper. Bucky Ball and I are in substantial agreement on this issue, but we are two different people.

You don't seem to understand how the flow of time works. If a book refers to something that happened hundreds or thousands of years after the book was supposedly written, we can safely conclude that the book was actually written later. This is, indeed, one of the reasons behind the documentary hypothesis. There is no such restriction in the other direction. Any book is free to refer to anything that happened before the book was written -- whether 5 minutes before or 1000 years before -- with no contradiction whatsoever. I don't know why you don't get that.

By "yourself, Grasshopper and others" I meant that BB and you are distinct persons but with similar lines of argument/inquiry.

Repeating - archaeology is a modern science. Both Penteteuch and other OT books get details right from periods of time earlier than JDEP and modernists advocate for writing the OT... WHY is this vital? Because skeptics MUST have later dates for OT books to make them false prophecies... whereas earlier dating means prophecies (like those regarding Alexander the Great, Darius I, Antiochus Epiphanes IV, etc.) are TRUE prophecies.

Therefore, among some mainline scholars there is a strong confirmatory bias. But documents outside the Bible and archaeological findings help verify the accuracy of the Word of God.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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08-07-2015, 10:16 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(08-07-2015 03:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(07-07-2015 09:33 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The issues you have remain with us:

* You have no proof, textual within the Bible or historical outside the Bible, to prove your assumptions like "Jesus was a Roman"

* The weight of the text doesn't support your theory either - you seem convinced the NT was written to make the Jews obey the Romans - this despite the thousands of verses saying NOT to obey the Roman pantheon of gods and the few verses about obeying government within - this despite the Romans "tricking" the Jews by writing hundreds of doctrines you've already claimed are incompatible with the OT - your theory makes for the worst possible imagined way to "trick" the Jewish people


Q, you wrote
"you seem convinced the NT was written to make the Jews obey the Romans - this despite the thousands of verses saying NOT to obey the Roman pantheon of gods"

It is highly unlikely you're going to understand the following reply, which I write mainly for anyone else who is interested.

Generally speaking, the (usually) educated Roman rulers considered religion, of all types, including their own, a joke. Religion was merely a tool used to control the common people (just as it is today.) The government authorities only insisted the common people worship the Roman gods because that meant the people obeyed Roman rule. The Jews were an exception to the common people... they were not required to worship any Roman god.

So the Roman authors of the new Testament would've been quite relaxed about writing to Jews to not worship the Roman gods. The authors really couldn't care less...so long as the Jews obeyed Roman law and paid Roman taxes.

What is more, there are not "thousands of verses" in the New Testament telling people not to obey the Roman gods. Your imagination is running away with you. Be more careful about what you write.

Sorry, there are thousands of verses in the NT--passages, even chapters, as well as individual verses--which advocate Jesus/Father God as the one and only God, Savior, Master, teacher, total truth teller, etc.

And, your theory has gaps in it. For one thing, you wrote:

The authors really couldn't care less...so long as the Jews obeyed Roman law and paid Roman taxes.

...forgetting that a Jewish Messiah who would throw off the shackles of Roman rule as well as punish the Gentiles for their treatment of Israel and the Jews was sedition and rebellion and heresy. Think a little about what a "zealot" was...

Further, you wrote in error:

Religion was merely a tool used to control the common people (just as it is today.)

...forgetting that the Caesars contemporary to Jesus were establishing themselves as gods, setting up centuries of conflict between themselves and the Senate and people of Rome and the Empire, along with the Jews, be they the Maccabees, Bar Kochba and his followers, or Jesus and his followers...

Then again, Mark, you are the master of understatement, right? "The NT was just a book to get Jews to pay Rome's taxes" is like saying "Christianity was a religion without endurance or much adherence by followers, nations and organizations."

Christianity is alive and well and Jesus will return to judge. Be cautious!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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08-07-2015, 10:19 AM (This post was last modified: 08-07-2015 07:22 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(08-07-2015 10:10 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Repeating - archaeology is a modern science. Both Penteteuch and other OT books get details right from periods of time earlier than JDEP and modernists advocate for writing the OT...

So you CLAIM, but offer no evidence. Your sentence is a non-sequitur. You totally misunderstand Archeology. "Talking about" periods of earlier time, (some of which get the details ALL WRONG, and that has been PROVEN, over and over), is not support for earlier dating.

(08-07-2015 10:10 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  WHY is this vital? Because skeptics MUST have later dates for OT books to make them false prophecies... whereas earlier dating means prophecies (like those regarding Alexander the Great, Darius I, Antiochus Epiphanes IV, etc.) are TRUE prophecies.

"Prophecy" is not "telling the future".
Post-dictums OF COURSE got things right. You offer NO PROOF of writing dates. Claims of dates are not proven dates.

(08-07-2015 10:10 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Therefore, among some mainline scholars there is a strong confirmatory bias. But documents outside the Bible and archaeological findings help verify the accuracy of the Word of God.

They do not. They prove it was all human made-up bullshit. There is NOT ONE Archeologist that says "this proves this is the 'word of god' ".

So now you say Archaeology IS valid ? Please try to keep your crap straight.
"In the Bible itself, prophecy is a call for moral improvement, not an inexorable doom." http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Biblical_prophecies
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/proph/long.html
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/Debunki.../Page7.htm
http://infidels.org/library/modern/farre...phecy.html
http://madmikesamerica.com/2011/04/six-f...rophecies/
Ezekiel 29:8-12 “And the land of Egypt shall be desolate and waste; and they shall know that I am the Lord: because he hath said, the river is mine, and I have made it. Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years.” .... never happened.
http://whistlinginthewind.org/2014/01/15...fulfilled/

Your god's word is horseshit.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-07-2015, 11:37 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(08-07-2015 10:10 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Repeating - archaeology is a modern science. Both Penteteuch and other OT books get details right from periods of time earlier than JDEP and modernists advocate for writing the OT... WHY is this vital? Because skeptics MUST have later dates for OT books to make them false prophecies... whereas earlier dating means prophecies (like those regarding Alexander the Great, Darius I, Antiochus Epiphanes IV, etc.) are TRUE prophecies.

Therefore, among some mainline scholars there is a strong confirmatory bias. But documents outside the Bible and archaeological findings help verify the accuracy of the Word of God.

You just can't keep your argument straight, can you? The documentary hypothesis (what you keep calling JDEP) refers to the Pentateuch, and only the Pentateuch. That is not where your precious "prophecies" are, so they are totally irrelevant.

Furthermore, if anyone is biased about prophecies, it could just as well be you. I claim that you are so desperate to have your prophecies vindicated (even though they are so vague as to be meaningless) that you will do anything to make it look like these books were written much earlier than they really were. But if you're going to do that, you could at least make the claim about the correct books! I repeat -- the books of the Pentateuch have nothing to do with any prophecies!
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08-07-2015, 09:36 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2015 02:19 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(08-07-2015 10:16 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(08-07-2015 03:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Q, you wrote
"you seem convinced the NT was written to make the Jews obey the Romans - this despite the thousands of verses saying NOT to obey the Roman pantheon of gods"

It is highly unlikely you're going to understand the following reply, which I write mainly for anyone else who is interested.

Generally speaking, the (usually) educated Roman rulers considered religion, of all types, including their own, a joke. Religion was merely a tool used to control the common people (just as it is today.) The government authorities only insisted the common people worship the Roman gods because that meant the people obeyed Roman rule. The Jews were an exception to the common people... they were not required to worship any Roman god.

So the Roman authors of the new Testament would've been quite relaxed about writing to Jews to not worship the Roman gods. The authors really couldn't care less...so long as the Jews obeyed Roman law and paid Roman taxes.

What is more, there are not "thousands of verses" in the New Testament telling people not to obey the Roman gods. Your imagination is running away with you. Be more careful about what you write.

Sorry, there are thousands of verses in the NT--passages, even chapters, as well as individual verses--which advocate Jesus/Father God as the one and only God, Savior, Master, teacher, total truth teller, etc.

And, your theory has gaps in it. For one thing, you wrote:

The authors really couldn't care less...so long as the Jews obeyed Roman law and paid Roman taxes.

...forgetting that a Jewish Messiah who would throw off the shackles of Roman rule as well as punish the Gentiles for their treatment of Israel and the Jews was sedition and rebellion and heresy. Think a little about what a "zealot" was...

Further, you wrote in error:

Religion was merely a tool used to control the common people (just as it is today.)

...forgetting that the Caesars contemporary to Jesus were establishing themselves as gods, setting up centuries of conflict between themselves and the Senate and people of Rome and the Empire, along with the Jews, be they the Maccabees, Bar Kochba and his followers, or Jesus and his followers...

Then again, Mark, you are the master of understatement, right? "The NT was just a book to get Jews to pay Rome's taxes" is like saying "Christianity was a religion without endurance or much adherence by followers, nations and organizations."

Christianity is alive and well and Jesus will return to judge. Be cautious!

You don't understand the history, and you have no idea what "my" theory is. You thought I thought Jeebus was a Roman!

Here are some facts. The Roman ruling classes, as a whole, privately regarded all stories of gods, magic and miracles with derision. These concepts were useful tools to control the people, but were not, generally speaking, considered real in the upper echelons of Roman society. Consider how, in 79 CE, Vespasian, on his deathbed, remarked wittily

“Vae, puto deus fio!" (Oh dear! I think I’m becoming a god!)

( https://wuhstry.wordpress.com/2014/04/14...-becoming- a-god-vespasian-and-the-divine/ ).

You really ought to listen to this...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zlj5-iwKueQ . It's only 10 minutes, and there will be people here interested enough to press on the link, but you already know what you need to know, so you won't be bothered.

You trying to tell me what you learned in Sunday school about zealots is pathetically laughable. I've been studying real Jewish/Roman history for eight years...you've been reading your babble and comics written by people who have read the babble. You clearly know next to nothing about the political climate in the Roman empire in the first century.

Your Jeebus may well have never existed. Even if he did, he is now as dead as a dodo, he can't hear your pleas and your prayers, and he is most definitely not coming back. Your crowd has been bleating about Jeebus' imminent return for 1900 years and we've had not a peep from wonder boy. Time for you to grow up and face reality.
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09-07-2015, 09:56 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
All,

I wrote "both the Penteteuch and the other OT books" AGAIN showing the distinct lines of thought.

Consider:

* The prophets reprove people for not following the Mosaic Law, demonstrating they wrote earlier than JDEP insists the Mosaic Law/Penteteuch was written

* Archaeology verifies hundreds of Penteteuch and OTHER OT names, people, locations, design details, etc. and thus demonstrates it is God's Word, simply by accepting the earlier, conservative dates for the Penteteuch and OTHER OT books, and then recognizing that prophecies were fulfilled (example, between the Babylonian diaspora and the time of the Septuagint)

* I said Mark said Jesus was a Roman as MARK again cited (without textual or corroborative evidence) the NT as Roman fabrication theory while using the name Jesus (in error without using the words "epistle", "Paul", etc.) - wholly Mark's issue/fault

You all have word salad, simply prove the later dating of the Penteteuch OR prove the later dating of the prophets OR prove the Roman theories of NT formation and I would have to renounce Christianity. Until then... Smile

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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09-07-2015, 10:22 AM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2015 10:42 AM by Grasshopper.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(09-07-2015 09:56 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  * The prophets reprove people for not following the Mosaic Law, demonstrating they wrote earlier than JDEP insists the Mosaic Law/Penteteuch was written

?????

It "demonstrates" no such thing. The only thing it demonstrates is that the Mosaic Law existed at the time the prophetic books were written. There is absolutely no reason why it couldn't have existed for hundreds or even thousands of years before that (there is also no reason why it couldn't have existed for hundreds or even thousands of years before it was written down). Orthodox Jews still follow the Mosaic Law today. Does that mean it was formulated yesterday? Do you even logic?
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09-07-2015, 11:39 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
I would also like to remind "Q" that the documentary hypothesis does not claim that someone sat down and wrote the entire Pentateuch at "late date x". The claim is that the Pentateuch was compiled at a relatively late date from a variety of existing documents, oral traditions, etc. Some of those documents and traditions may have been in existence for many years before the eventual compilation date. In particular, the Mosaic Law probably existed in some form many years before that date. Nobody is claiming that the Hebrew priests invented the Mosaic Law out of whole cloth at the time of compilation. So please stop trying to knock down that particular straw man.
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09-07-2015, 12:01 PM (This post was last modified: 09-07-2015 07:16 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(09-07-2015 09:56 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  * The prophets reprove people for not following the Mosaic Law, demonstrating they wrote earlier than JDEP insists the Mosaic Law/Penteteuch was written

* Archaeology verifies hundreds of Penteteuch and OTHER OT names, people, locations, design details, etc. and thus demonstrates it is God's Word, simply by accepting the earlier, conservative dates for the Penteteuch and OTHER OT books, and then recognizing that prophecies were fulfilled (example, between the Babylonian diaspora and the time of the Septuagint)

Totally FALSE. ALL of it.
There was no Moses, and the "law that humans (later) created" was LABELED "Mosaic Law". The fact that ancient Near Eastern customs which were sanctioned by the priests and codified, and LATER labeled "Mosaic Law" is proof of NOTHING except they slapped a label on it to give it validity. It's like Americans calling something LATER "Jeffersonian" in the sense that the labelers THINK it is in conformity with what they THINK (an immaginary) Moses or Jefferson, might have approved of.

Archeology "verifies" no such thing. The fact that there is a site called "Abraham's tomb" in no way proves THE Biblical Abraham existed or that he is burried there. The fact that some similar names were found (such as Jerrico ... and BTW archeology PROVES the Biblical events at Jerrico did not and could not have happened the way the Bible says they did) is proof of NOTHING except that these were common names floating around and were applied to some places and LATER written into the Bible.

You have no, (as in ZERO) edication in Biblical Studies, Q.
You have NO clue what you're babbling about.
No scholar agrees with your bullshit.

My question to Q is : "If the Bible is PROVEN to be "God's word" and IF that is done by fulfilled prophecy, then what is the threshold for acceptance of this concept ? 25 %, 10 %, 5 % ? We know for a fact that many Biblical prophecies did not come true. So what is the empirical cut-off point at which the notion verifies the claim, exactly ? 55.62 % coming true ? What exactly is the threshold beyond which the notion is dismissed as false. If you HAVE no such standard, you are an intellectual fraud.

Also Q, you say that there are Bible codes. I want to know what the threshold for belief in that crap is also ? We know for a FACT, that the same sorts of "codes" are found in any work of literature, incluing Shakespeare. If that is the case, what is the standard for "codes present" that meets the standard for belief in a bullshit deity. 10 ? 15 ? 75 ? 50 ? What is the standard for coding that makes a book "divinely inspired" or not. You MUST have one or the entire enterprise is irrational. How do I decide a book is "the word" ? How many and how much BETTER must the codes be, than the codes everywhere else, that are so ubiquitous in all of literature, to constitute your "proof" ? Also please tell us, since Hebrew was written right to left with no breaks, and Greek was written with no breaks, in what language and what version EXACTLY are you taking your codes coming from, and also WHAT EXACTLY would falsify a particualar book from your canon. I want to know the EXACT standard number or percentage used to differentiate. If you have non, you're simply full of shit.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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09-07-2015, 08:14 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(09-07-2015 09:56 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

I wrote "both the Penteteuch and the other OT books" AGAIN showing the distinct lines of thought.

Consider:

* The prophets reprove people for not following the Mosaic Law, demonstrating they wrote earlier than JDEP insists the Mosaic Law/Penteteuch was written

* Archaeology verifies hundreds of Penteteuch and OTHER OT names, people, locations, design details, etc. and thus demonstrates it is God's Word, simply by accepting the earlier, conservative dates for the Penteteuch and OTHER OT books, and then recognizing that prophecies were fulfilled (example, between the Babylonian diaspora and the time of the Septuagint)

* I said Mark said Jesus was a Roman as MARK again cited (without textual or corroborative evidence) the NT as Roman fabrication theory

You all have word salad, simply prove the later dating of the Penteteuch OR prove the later dating of the prophets OR prove the Roman theories of NT formation and I would have to renounce Christianity. Until then... Smile

"Mark said Jesus was a Roman"

No I didn't. I am Mark. I know what I say. Are you going to try to prove to me that you know what I say, and I don't?

"...while using the name Jesus (in error without using the words "epistle", "Paul", etc.) - wholly Mark's issue/fault"

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. Do you?

You keep repeating the same things over and over. You somehow imagine we don't understand what you're trying to say. Yet you've failed to address the multiple issues we have bought up with your statements. We are trying to move the conversation on, but you are just repeating yourself. You didn't watch the 10 minute video I linked you to, yet you managed to claim, again, that I have no evidence for "my" theories.
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