Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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17-07-2015, 12:22 AM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2015 02:41 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(16-07-2015 09:20 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 06:03 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  What an excellent point that I've never thought of before.

If God revealed his son to Paul while Paul was still in the womb, Paul's son of God was obviously not Jeebus, because Jeebus hadn't done his thing yet. It was to be another 30 odd years before Jeebus died for everyone's sins. This is more evidence that Paul didn't think his Christ was Jeebus.

That's actually an important line in Paul, revealing his insanity. He's quoting Jeremiah and says it refers to himself because he was nuts. Paul changed from being a self-righteous Jew to an Apostle, because he was an insane megalomaniac, and he found a better way to express it. He invokes Jeremiah, ABOUT HIMSELF, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you". (Jeremiah 1:5, Isaiah 49:1).
"However when God who designated me before I was born, and commissioned me through his grace ..." Gal 1: 11-17.

LOL

Oh that's cool. Thumbsup Thanks for pointing it out. Paul was an asshole. This is what I have concluded about Paul's mental status...

On a personal level, Paul had hardly any redeeming qualities, but contemptible people can at times be charming. In 1 Corinthians 13, he wrote some nice prose about love, and elsewhere paid lip service to the virtues of forgiveness, humility, gentleness, compassion, and kindness. Yet it can be argued all this was nothing more than one side of his passive aggressive personality. His teachings elsewhere, and his own example, promoted the exact opposite.

( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTTwSJK_XMI )

Paul’s affectionate side was only shown to people who did exactly as they were told. Others were outside his control and a threat to his authority. He could not fathom that, and rambled on why they were so wrong and he was so right. He was a scheming, manipulative man, and I doubt he ever displayed unqualified gentleness, humility or tolerance.

He used an inordinate amount of ink writing about himself, his opinions, and his relationships with others, yet it is probable his real agenda was not once clearly admitted. Paul never admitted whom he was working for, or where his personal ambitions lay, as that would have revealed the real reasons he was so damn obsessed with preaching to people.

It is probable Paul was mildly mentally unwell. He was anxious, obsessive, insecure, a touch paranoid, quite delusional, introspective and egocentric. Paul was never quite at ease with himself, nor comfortable in a world he could not totally control. Paul was probably pretty miserable, and there was no good treatment to be had in those days. He insisted on telling others how to live their lives, yet it was he who needed the help! Paul would have been a difficult patient. A therapist would try to stop him talking, get him to put his feet up, and suggest he try just listening to the wind and birds. Paul was probably too immersed in his own delusions to follow anyone else’s advice. Paul would corner the counselor and lecture her about Christ or some other rationalization of his current obsession. There would be no peaceful moments in Paul’s presence.
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17-07-2015, 03:29 AM (This post was last modified: 17-07-2015 03:51 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(16-07-2015 09:20 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 06:03 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  What an excellent point that I've never thought of before.

If God revealed his son to Paul while Paul was still in the womb, Paul's son of God was obviously not Jeebus, because Jeebus hadn't done his thing yet. It was to be another 30 odd years before Jeebus died for everyone's sins. This is more evidence that Paul didn't think his Christ was Jeebus.

That's actually an important line in Paul, revealing his insanity. He's quoting Jeremiah and says it refers to himself because he was nuts. Paul changed from being a self-righteous Jew to an Apostle, because he was an insane megalomaniac, and he found a better way to express it. He invokes Jeremiah, ABOUT HIMSELF, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you". (Jeremiah 1:5, Isaiah 49:1).
"However when God who designated me before I was born, and commissioned me through his grace ..." Gal 1: 11-17.

LOL

Yep. He was a megalomaniac...

Paul the Cult Leader

A cult is a small group that has religious beliefs or practices regarded as strange or sinister. Traditional Jews may have regarded Paul’s proto Christian communities as parts of a cult.

Like all cult leaders, Paul did his best to bolster his personal power and prestige. His ego was partly responsible for his self-styled theology. Despite Paul’s wordy protestations that he was only working for everyone else’s welfare, his letters lay bare his burning need to browbeat the reader into believing that he, Paul, was the ultimate authority on theological and ethical issues. Paul often called his teachings

. . . my gospel,” (Rom 2; 16 and 16; 25-27)

a very apt description. His Gospel elevated him to the status of the master teacher, as no one else in his immediate circle was an authority on it.

The arrogant Paul insisted this Gospel of his was the only path to salvation:

“Brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, the gospel that you received and in which you are firmly established; because the gospel will save you only if you keep believing exactly what I preached to you - believing anything else will not lead to anything” (1 Cor. 15:1–3, NJB.)

Sophisticated men are interested in others’ opinions, but Paul could not cope with competing convictions. Magnanimous men are never overly dogmatic; they give people space to find their own paths, but Paul would have none of that. Authentic teachers do not need to threaten their students, but Paul did.

Paul wrote

“Take me for your model, as I take Christ” (1 Cor. 11:1, NJB.)

Paul thought he was the next best thing to God; that he was the personal deputy of his deity.

A few years later Paul wrote,

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me” (Gal. 2:20, KJV.)

By then God’s right hand man had himself become God. These delusions of grandeur aptly reveal one facet of Paul’s narcissistic personality. It is surprising that more of today’s Christians do not recognize this obvious flaw in Paul’s character.

Status and power were not all that Paul pursued. He needed food and shelter, items that usually needed to be bought. Money seems to have been a niggling issue:

“That is why I have thought it necessary to ask these brothers to go on to you ahead of us, and make sure in advance that the gift you promised is all ready, and that it all comes as a gift out of your generosity and not by being extorted from you. Do not forget that thin sowing means thin reaping; the more you sow, the more you reap. Each one should give what he has decided in his own mind, not grudgingly or because he is made to, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Cor. 9:5–7, NJB.)

Cult leaders trying to earn a quid love a cheerful giver too! Giving and taking money has always been part and parcel of the machinery of religion, and it still is today, and Paul’s activities were no exception.

Paul tried to justify living off the communities he visited:

“Nobody ever paid money to stay in the army, and nobody ever planted a vineyard and refused to eat the fruit of it. Who has there ever been that kept a flock and did not feed on the milk from his flock?” (1 Cor. 9:7, JB.)

Paul must have milked money from his fraternities. Anyone he clashed with was compromising not just his ego, but his income too.

Paul did not have an easy time selling his ideas, as he repeatedly wrote about his own credentials. If he had impressed more people in real life, he would not have needed to sell himself so hard in his letters.

It's amazing that after 2000 years this nasty character can elicit such an emotional response in me. I hate his guts. Maybe that says just as much about me as it does about him. He was just doing what you do if controlling people is your thing. He could not have known how much harm he was to cause the world.

Nevertheless, I think it is up to us to expose this asshole and disempower him. Fucking Christians are still using his ramblings to try to control others, even innocent kids. This must stop.
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17-07-2015, 05:30 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(17-07-2015 03:29 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 09:20 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  That's actually an important line in Paul, revealing his insanity. He's quoting Jeremiah and says it refers to himself because he was nuts. Paul changed from being a self-righteous Jew to an Apostle, because he was an insane megalomaniac, and he found a better way to express it. He invokes Jeremiah, ABOUT HIMSELF, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you". (Jeremiah 1:5, Isaiah 49:1).
"However when God who designated me before I was born, and commissioned me through his grace ..." Gal 1: 11-17.

LOL

Yep. He was a megalomaniac...

Paul the Cult Leader

A cult is a small group that has religious beliefs or practices regarded as strange or sinister. Traditional Jews may have regarded Paul’s proto Christian communities as parts of a cult.

Like all cult leaders, Paul did his best to bolster his personal power and prestige. His ego was partly responsible for his self-styled theology. Despite Paul’s wordy protestations that he was only working for everyone else’s welfare, his letters lay bare his burning need to browbeat the reader into believing that he, Paul, was the ultimate authority on theological and ethical issues. Paul often called his teachings

. . . my gospel,” (Rom 2; 16 and 16; 25-27)

a very apt description. His Gospel elevated him to the status of the master teacher, as no one else in his immediate circle was an authority on it.

The arrogant Paul insisted this Gospel of his was the only path to salvation:

“Brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, the gospel that you received and in which you are firmly established; because the gospel will save you only if you keep believing exactly what I preached to you - believing anything else will not lead to anything” (1 Cor. 15:1–3, NJB.)

Sophisticated men are interested in others’ opinions, but Paul could not cope with competing convictions. Magnanimous men are never overly dogmatic; they give people space to find their own paths, but Paul would have none of that. Authentic teachers do not need to threaten their students, but Paul did.

Paul wrote

“Take me for your model, as I take Christ” (1 Cor. 11:1, NJB.)

Paul thought he was the next best thing to God; that he was the personal deputy of his deity.

A few years later Paul wrote,

“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me” (Gal. 2:20, KJV.)

By then God’s right hand man had himself become God. These delusions of grandeur aptly reveal one facet of Paul’s narcissistic personality. It is surprising that more of today’s Christians do not recognize this obvious flaw in Paul’s character.

Status and power were not all that Paul pursued. He needed food and shelter, items that usually needed to be bought. Money seems to have been a niggling issue:

“That is why I have thought it necessary to ask these brothers to go on to you ahead of us, and make sure in advance that the gift you promised is all ready, and that it all comes as a gift out of your generosity and not by being extorted from you. Do not forget that thin sowing means thin reaping; the more you sow, the more you reap. Each one should give what he has decided in his own mind, not grudgingly or because he is made to, for God loves a cheerful giver” (2 Cor. 9:5–7, NJB.)

Cult leaders trying to earn a quid love a cheerful giver too! Giving and taking money has always been part and parcel of the machinery of religion, and it still is today, and Paul’s activities were no exception.

Paul tried to justify living off the communities he visited:

“Nobody ever paid money to stay in the army, and nobody ever planted a vineyard and refused to eat the fruit of it. Who has there ever been that kept a flock and did not feed on the milk from his flock?” (1 Cor. 9:7, JB.)

Paul must have milked money from his fraternities. Anyone he clashed with was compromising not just his ego, but his income too.

Paul did not have an easy time selling his ideas, as he repeatedly wrote about his own credentials. If he had impressed more people in real life, he would not have needed to sell himself so hard in his letters.

It's amazing that after 2000 years this nasty character can elicit such an emotional response in me. I hate his guts. Maybe that says just as much about me as it does about him. He was just doing what you do if controlling people is your thing. He could not have known how much harm he was to cause the world.

Nevertheless, I think it is up to us to expose this asshole and disempower him. Fucking Christians are still using his ramblings to try to control others, even innocent kids. This must stop.

We see his minions today, Q is one of them. They inherited Paul's nasty, controlling self-promotional attitude.

I had a friend that was interminably religious and he acted just like Paul. Everyone that didn't understand HIS Christianity was an ignorant fool, he was superior to everyone and felt free to denigrate anyone that didn't believe his version of Truth.

That's the transforming power of Jeebus, you can no longer differentiate the faithful from the fraudulent or the egomaniacs. I saw these types running around in the churches I used to attend, it was sickening.

Every church I went to seemed to be dominated by a handful of Nurse Ratcheds that had bigger issues than the inmates they were trying to control.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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17-07-2015, 09:49 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(16-07-2015 08:09 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 07:26 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Because you are simply shifting the goal posts. A five-year-old could reconcile the differences in the accounts but you don't wish them reconciled.

I'm familiar with the history of how we have received our current Bible texts and higher criticism. But you quoting two authors to say Paul didn't see what Paul saw is hardly factual or textual criticism!

There are no "facts" involved in anything here. All the various books of "acts" were created as devotional fiction. All I pointed out was that there are serious scholars (which YOU are not) that see the possibility that there are alternate ways of seeing the translated texts.

You don't know what "Paul saw". All you know is what you *think* Paul saw, based on your (probably incorrect) reading of a book of pious fraud.

I call baloney. No one can critique a text fairly without attempting to critique what the text says. As long as you keep pontificating fantasy, I will attempt to show you where the Bible differs (if you are wrong, which sometimes happens). Sometimes your fantasy actually touches Bible reality!

I would further remind you that in a court of law, the earlier document has precedent authority. The Qu'ran makes outrageous claims and changes to the Bible but the burden of proof is on it since the Bible "speaks" first.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-07-2015, 09:53 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(17-07-2015 09:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I would further remind you that in a court of law, the earlier document has precedent authority. The Qu'ran makes outrageous claims and changes to the Bible but the burden of proof is on it since the Bible "speaks" first.

In a court of law, the newer will or contract takes precedence. You really spout a lot of nonsense, Q-ball.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-07-2015, 09:54 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(16-07-2015 01:49 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 07:31 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Likewise, this post is typical...

Paul, in his own writings, never once mentioned this fabulous event.

"Paul, called to be an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and our brother Sosthenes, to the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people, together with all those everywhere who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ—their Lord and ours..." - 1 Corinthians 1:1-2

"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. 9 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God." - 1 Corinthians 15:3-9

Here you are claiming Paul never mentioned seeing Jesus Christ. Yet here is a letter from Paul in which he claims apostleship because he indeed saw Christ (one mark of an apostle was they had seen Christ as an eyewitness).

I hope that you will someday read the scriptures in addition to critiquing them, with an end result of salvation.

Thanks.

Apparently your brain works very biased or badly.

Is Paul SPECIFICALLY detailing the "road to Damascus" meeting by any criteria. That "fabulous" event as it is being labeled here? NO. That's the point being made that you don't somehow see. You jump to assume it's the type of thing you can make evidence of. He proclaims to have seen him, but doesn't describe the event that is described elsewhere and recounted as remarkable by Christians of your Paul believing ilk.

I'm not "very" biased, just biased. Hundreds of millions of Christians have long accepted Paul's conversion, because Paul, like Peter and others, rest their main case for the authenticity of Jesus Christ on fulfilled OT prophecies rather than eyewitness testimony. I can guide you to scripture references for this point (although I believe I've raised this issue two dozen times just this past month alone on various TTA threads!).

And aren't all TTA members thrilled that we can look at the facts of Bible prophecies fulfilled rather than eyewitness testimony (as hearsay)? Angel

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-07-2015, 09:55 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(16-07-2015 04:28 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 03:27 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  “Then god who had specially chosen me while I was still in my mother’s womb, called me through his grace and chose to reveal his son in me, so that I might preach the Good News about him to the pagans. (Gal. 1:15–20, NJB.)

Paul's claiming that god revealed his son in him before he was born. That would've made Jesus a toddler at that time. Facepalm

The whole thing is so contrived, Q is really a Paulistinian, not a Christian.

I'm unfamiliar with this concept. Do you have verses I can review on this?

Thanks!

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17-07-2015, 09:56 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(16-07-2015 09:20 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 06:03 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  What an excellent point that I've never thought of before.

If God revealed his son to Paul while Paul was still in the womb, Paul's son of God was obviously not Jeebus, because Jeebus hadn't done his thing yet. It was to be another 30 odd years before Jeebus died for everyone's sins. This is more evidence that Paul didn't think his Christ was Jeebus.

That's actually an important line in Paul, revealing his insanity. He's quoting Jeremiah and says it refers to himself because he was nuts. Paul changed from being a self-righteous Jew to an Apostle, because he was an insane megalomaniac, and he found a better way to express it. He invokes Jeremiah, ABOUT HIMSELF, "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you". (Jeremiah 1:5, Isaiah 49:1).
"However when God who designated me before I was born, and commissioned me through his grace ..." Gal 1: 11-17.

LOL

Ah, I see what The Inquisition might have been referring to now. Jesus is eternal and existed before His incarnation in flesh. God foreknew that Paul would trust Jesus and preach... thanks for your post.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-07-2015, 09:57 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(17-07-2015 09:54 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 01:49 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Apparently your brain works very biased or badly.

Is Paul SPECIFICALLY detailing the "road to Damascus" meeting by any criteria. That "fabulous" event as it is being labeled here? NO. That's the point being made that you don't somehow see. You jump to assume it's the type of thing you can make evidence of. He proclaims to have seen him, but doesn't describe the event that is described elsewhere and recounted as remarkable by Christians of your Paul believing ilk.

I'm not "very" biased, just biased. Hundreds of millions of Christians have long accepted Paul's conversion, because Paul, like Peter and others, rest their main case for the authenticity of Jesus Christ on fulfilled OT prophecies rather than eyewitness testimony. I can guide you to scripture references for this point (although I believe I've raised this issue two dozen times just this past month alone on various TTA threads!).

And aren't all TTA members thrilled that we can look at the facts of Bible prophecies fulfilled rather than eyewitness testimony (as hearsay)? Angel

Except that we all know that's Fundie biased bullshit. Paul never said that and you obviously know nothing of the complexities of the role of a prophet in Hebrew society. maybe someday you'll actually take a class on your cult.

We also know there were at least as many unfulfilled prophecies.
Too bad you built your entire life on shifting sands in a house of cards.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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17-07-2015, 09:59 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(17-07-2015 09:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-07-2015 08:09 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There are no "facts" involved in anything here. All the various books of "acts" were created as devotional fiction. All I pointed out was that there are serious scholars (which YOU are not) that see the possibility that there are alternate ways of seeing the translated texts.

You don't know what "Paul saw". All you know is what you *think* Paul saw, based on your (probably incorrect) reading of a book of pious fraud.

I call baloney. No one can critique a text fairly without attempting to critique what the text says. As long as you keep pontificating fantasy, I will attempt to show you where the Bible differs (if you are wrong, which sometimes happens). Sometimes your fantasy actually touches Bible reality!

I would further remind you that in a court of law, the earlier document has precedent authority. The Qu'ran makes outrageous claims and changes to the Bible but the burden of proof is on it since the Bible "speaks" first.

We're not in a court of law you idiot. Your point is utterly irrelevant. But you are no scholar, and you continually demonstrate that here day after day.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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