Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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15-04-2015, 05:36 PM (This post was last modified: 15-04-2015 05:46 PM by Stevil.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(15-04-2015 02:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.."
Was Jesus human? Did he sin?
How can you claim "because all sinned"?
(15-04-2015 02:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I take "because all sinned" as the way "all have death through sin". That is, I don't believe being born is a sin. I believe babies are lovely people. It's the adults we need to worry about--babies tend not to rape, steal and kill other babies.
Young children need to learn how the world works. There is a stage in their young lives where it is al about them. They see a toy they want, they take it. If another kid has it they snatch it.
But what they quickly learn is that if they snatch it then the other kid hits them, they also learn that if they hit another kid, then sometimes the other kid hits back. They start to learn the limitations of what they can get away with, they start to learn not to snatch things, especially from big kids, because otherwise they end up getting hurt. They turn that concept in their minds into the ideals of fairness and sharing and caring. It's not about being born uncorrupted and becoming corrupted as an adult.
(15-04-2015 02:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. Others here ask why it has to be Jesus who pays for sin. I might as well ask:

* Why do I have to repay my credit cards with money? Can I give them a dead body as a sacrifice? Can I give them two goats?
When we pay a creditor money, the creditor gains something of value to them. They gain money that they can then use to get things that they want.
If someone is put to death for sin, what value does the god get from the death? What can the god then do with that death?
(15-04-2015 02:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  * Why do we have some criminals do community service? Can't they just give large fines to the government instead? Don't the actors who have to do community service have millions of dollars they can add to our tax rolls instead?
I really don't like the idea of justice. As a society we punish transgressors as a disincentive to other transgressions, or we remove dangerous people from society to stop them being a danger to society.
For some criminals doing community service is more of a disincentive than just paying an affordable fine.

(15-04-2015 02:25 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Is there anything that is worthy of capital punishment/death?
From a justice perspective - No.
From a safety perspective - Yes. Repeat pedophiles are a continued danger to society. Storing them in prison forever costs society lots of money. If we could put them down in a cost effective manner then society is all the better having removed the threat and having saved money that could perhaps be given to victims or to the health system.
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15-04-2015, 05:48 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(14-04-2015 01:46 PM)Dusky Wrote:  
(14-04-2015 01:36 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Jesus died to pay for the sin of man. He was innocent.
Is being born a sin?
Many Christians (Catholic especially) state that Jesus could pay for our sin with his death because he was innocent (without sin).
They also claim that us humans inherit the sins of our parents and ancestors going all the way back to original sin by Adam and Eve.
They cite that Jesus was special, living the human life but being able to achieve it without sin, showing us that it could be done.
If we inherit the sins of our parents, all the way back to Adam and Eve then even if no more sin were performed, at the very least we would inherit original sin. Thus we are not free from sin, thus we "deserve" death in the god's eye.
Jesus mother was supposedly Mary, Mary was supposedly human, a descendant of Adam and Eve. Jesus therefore was born with the stain of original sin. If somehow he didn't have that, then he was hardly human and could not attest to achieving a sinless human life.

Going by the sin = destined for death theme, if Jesus was free from sin then he was free from death. Supposedly if not put to death he would have lingered longer than the rest of us, possibly be a 2,000 year old man walking around and "preaching" on street corners. (I swear I've seen him).
But if he were human then he would have eventually died even if he weren't crucified. He would have died of some disease, like polio, leporacy, gonorrhea, cancer or if he were very lucky he would have died of old age.
If however his state of being "sin free" meant that he couldn't die this would mean that he was immune to disease, even immune to old age or even accidents etc. He could have fallen off a 100 M cliff and walked away, he could have had a sword pierce his side and walked away, he could have been nailed to a cross and walked away (once the nails were pulled out).
So how could he have died at the hands of the Romans?
Jesus could have sacrificed himself by intentionally sinning as this would have been akin to giving away his "cannot die/get out of jail free" card.
But then he would have been a sinner like the rest of us and there would have been nothing remarkable about his death.
According to the myth, Jesus died as payment for our sins. So how was this arrangement made? Who were the parties involved? It certainly wasn't me or anyone who is alive today as we weren't around when this deal was allegedly struck.
So it would have to have been a private arrangement between the god and Jesus. For this arrangement to have been made, the god was in the power seat, the god had the power to enforce death or to grant clemency. Apparently the god demanded death (and executed the punishment) of the sinner as payment from the person committing or inheriting sin from ancestors. Kings of old did this sort of thing, sentenced people to death, presumably as a show of power to disincentive would-be rebellious behavior. Or merely as a proud show of power. Kings, being mortal and hence in danger of rebellion have a perceived need to squash any rebellious thoughts from the people that might present a danger to the King. An all powerful immortal god on the other hand has no dangers, so could only be driven in this blood lust requirement for death by a proud desire to show off his power.
It is a bit ridiculous to consider that if the god and Jesus are one and the same, that the god made a deal with himself to "sacrifice" himself to appease himself of his demanded blood sacrifice for transgressions by humans against his own demands on how people are to behave.
It fails as a show of power, I mean "Don't sin otherwise I will kill myself on your behalf and then I will come back from being dead and forgive you" isn't really a knee trembling threat. It's more of a face palming, head scratching hysterical crazy laughter inspiring statement.
"Really? OK, you do that to yourself god, I don't really care, knock yourself out buddy, whatever get's you off, you know."
It's not really much of a sacrifice if he comes back, and what does the god gain from the whole thing? What value does a god get from a human sacrifice? Its madness to demand sacrifice if you gain nothing from it.

But still, the whole crucification was unimportant. If Jesus was "sacrificed" in this unholy deal then all that would be needed would be to take away Jesus death immunity card. Jesus would then have to traverse a mortal human life which would have given him a vastly different human experience. He would now be susceptible to disease and injury. His life faced with these inevitabilities would have been vastly more interesting and fruitful than a simple crucification. The crucification was just one of the may ways that humans at the time died. Unremarkable.
Was there any narrative in the bible to suggest Jesus made such a deal with himself (I mean, god)?
Was there any narrative in the bible to suggest Jesus was immortal prior to the deal but mortal afterwards?
Now, if Jesus "sacrifice" was accepted as payment for our sins and hence taken away the need for death, one has to ask, why since then do humans continue to die?
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15-04-2015, 06:18 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(15-04-2015 05:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Jesus mother was supposedly Mary, Mary was supposedly human, a descendant of Adam and Eve. Jesus therefore was born with the stain of original sin.

Mary was the result of the immaculate conception which is special pleading to have her not be tainted with original sin just to avoid that problem. There's no bit of logic that theists can't find an ad-hoc explanation for to plug the hole.

Quote:If somehow he didn't have that, then he was hardly human and could not attest to achieving a sinless human life.

I'm sure they have a way to rationalize that as well.

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15-04-2015, 06:24 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(15-04-2015 06:18 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 05:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Jesus mother was supposedly Mary, Mary was supposedly human, a descendant of Adam and Eve. Jesus therefore was born with the stain of original sin.

Mary was the result of the immaculate conception which is special pleading to have her not be tainted with original sin just to avoid that problem. There's no bit of logic that theists can't find an ad-hoc explanation for to plug the hole.
But wasn't Mary's DNA use to provide half of what became Jesus?
Does god have human DNA? How did he provide his half?
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15-04-2015, 06:27 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(15-04-2015 06:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 06:18 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Mary was the result of the immaculate conception which is special pleading to have her not be tainted with original sin just to avoid that problem. There's no bit of logic that theists can't find an ad-hoc explanation for to plug the hole.
But wasn't Mary's DNA use to provide half of what became Jesus?
Does god have human DNA? How did he provide his half?

Well, you see, god took sperm from David and saved it for centuries (it's cold up in heaven) and then performed the first IVF so Jesus was the first test tube baby.... or something like that.

I think I see your problem though; you keep trying to make sense out of total nonsense.
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15-04-2015, 06:38 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(15-04-2015 06:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 06:18 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Mary was the result of the immaculate conception which is special pleading to have her not be tainted with original sin just to avoid that problem. There's no bit of logic that theists can't find an ad-hoc explanation for to plug the hole.
But wasn't Mary's DNA use to provide half of what became Jesus?
Does god have human DNA? How did he provide his half?

I don't understand why god changed his creation technique, why not form Jesus out of dust? This resolves all of the confusing genealogy stuff.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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15-04-2015, 06:50 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(15-04-2015 06:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 06:18 PM)unfogged Wrote:  Mary was the result of the immaculate conception which is special pleading to have her not be tainted with original sin just to avoid that problem. There's no bit of logic that theists can't find an ad-hoc explanation for to plug the hole.
But wasn't Mary's DNA use to provide half of what became Jesus?
Does god have human DNA? How did he provide his half?

Maybe he did the same thing he did with Adam and Eve. He took Adam's rib to make Eve which was the very first clone. Except that that would make Eve......Steve. Nyuck, nyuck nyuck. Big Grin

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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15-04-2015, 06:55 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(15-04-2015 06:50 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 06:24 PM)Stevil Wrote:  But wasn't Mary's DNA use to provide half of what became Jesus?
Does god have human DNA? How did he provide his half?

Maybe he did the same thing he did with Adam and Eve. He took Adam's rib to make Eve which was the very first clone. Except that that would make Eve......Steve. Nyuck, nyuck nyuck. Big Grin

Since the product of a virgin birth would be a female it must mean that Jesus was actually transsexual.

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15-04-2015, 09:08 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
"It is the policy of this establishment not to accept payments in the form of a dead Jew on a stick. Please pay another way that isn't stupid and gross."

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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15-04-2015, 10:58 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(15-04-2015 05:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  An all powerful immortal god on the other hand has no dangers, so could only be driven in this blood lust requirement for death by a proud desire to show off his power.

Some time ago I decided that if any group of theists had it right (and I don't personally think any do, but if one did), it would be the Muslims.

Contrary to the nonsense floated around these days, Islam does not mean "peace." It means "submission," and that is a perfectly sensible, even rational response to a truly omniscient god, at least if your goal is to avoid torture.

In the face of a truly omniscient god, which can order things any way it pleases—up to and including the idiotic sacrifice-myself-to-myself-to-atone-for-sins-I-forced-humans-into bullshit of Christianity—the best way to survive would be utter submission. Think of it as being a slave to a cruel, murderous master. Doesn't make for much of a life, but if survival is the goal, and avoidance of terror and pain, it makes sense.

The Christian story fails in so many ways, but primary among them is the ridiculous contortions believers must go through to rectify the idea of an all-good, all-powerful, all-knowning god with rationality and common sense.

Dear Q Cunt: you remain as unpersuasive as ever.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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