Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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22-07-2015, 10:43 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(22-07-2015 03:42 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 07:32 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Very good. Let's start with one of your statements above:

He simply assumes that these letters, which he lovingly fingers in his leather bound tome, have some inherent truth and wisdom.

The Christian witness is a Bible witness, rather than assume the Bible is filled with wisdom, one can do observation and inductive studies to see whether Bible statements about universals are indeed universal. As I mentioned, I began very skeptical regarding Bible claims as an adult and then was converted. I applied both deductive and inductive reasoning.

Wright fails to appreciate that we, modern people, have a far superior understanding of what is right and wrong and how the world works, than the over imaginative, narcissistic two-faced preacher called Paul.

You have given many reasons why you feel Paul is off. However, a subset of your statement:

...we, modern people, have a far superior understanding of what is right and wrong...

...belies your prejudice. You feel you are wiser than the ancient sages? You feel people today are smarter and wiser (not just having access to a bigger knowledge base) than the ancients? Be careful because you may be despising your ancestors...

...also because you will often deride my views saying they are reformed views or modernist interpretations and not what early sources believed. Be consistent.

You imagine you have a nuanced and learned understanding of the babble. Yet you are not honest and real enough to ask the big questions.

Again, even the word "learned" is telling. You have a bias towards intellectuals and intellectualism as an end in itself (common enough bias among atheists, and rightly so, since most atheists are very, very intelligent). However, you then slip in a personal attack:

...you are not honest and real enough to ask the big questions...

Ayuh. That's why I come here several times a week and post to have 2-10 atheists attack everything I propose, because I can't handle tough questions, tough ideas, or have my simple faith challenged. Sure, that must be it.

I can say the same about you. How many born agains do you rapport with, really? Really listen to them and sift their ideas and discuss? From the looks of it, you only talk to academics and read academic treatises... Christianity is a practical faith dealing with the real world. You atheists constantly bring up heaven and hell more than I hear about them in church!

How many born agains do you rapport with, really? Really listen to them and sift their ideas and discuss?

These people that you mention, I know them, they're quite lame.... I'd like to rearrange their faces, and give them all another name.

Seriously though, I live in a rather more rational part of the world than you. The "born agains" here tend to live in communes and fund their lifestyle by ripping the government off. They don't talk to me much. Christianity is not part of the real, functional world here. It is for the pathetically deluded, the mentally unwell, the desperate down and outers, and any other missfits some local guru has taken advantage of.

Do I talk to them? Yes... I make the effort. Yet 99% of the time they are intellectually vacuous, and therefore unable to hold a quality conversation. Rather like you actually... although, some credit where it's due, you do keep coming back. What a shame you have nothing to say that adds any value to the conversation. I think you haven't disappeared because...when you come here you can escape your friends... and have some real conversations with some real people.... even if we do heap shit on you.Big Grin

You missed my point utterly. We are more knowledgeable than ancients but this does not mean we are higher in IQ or wiser. Wisdom is in applying knowledge for life, health and society. Much wisdom is in the scriptures.

Where do you live where most born agains are in communes? Where I live, they are government officials running for U.S. President, in my workplace, my schools, my local shopping centers. This is getting weird, Mark...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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22-07-2015, 11:05 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(22-07-2015 10:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(22-07-2015 03:42 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  How many born agains do you rapport with, really? Really listen to them and sift their ideas and discuss?

These people that you mention, I know them, they're quite lame.... I'd like to rearrange their faces, and give them all another name.

Seriously though, I live in a rather more rational part of the world than you. The "born agains" here tend to live in communes and fund their lifestyle by ripping the government off. They don't talk to me much. Christianity is not part of the real, functional world here. It is for the pathetically deluded, the mentally unwell, the desperate down and outers, and any other missfits some local guru has taken advantage of.

Do I talk to them? Yes... I make the effort. Yet 99% of the time they are intellectually vacuous, and therefore unable to hold a quality conversation. Rather like you actually... although, some credit where it's due, you do keep coming back. What a shame you have nothing to say that adds any value to the conversation. I think you haven't disappeared because...when you come here you can escape your friends... and have some real conversations with some real people.... even if we do heap shit on you.Big Grin

You missed my point utterly. We are more knowledgeable than ancients but this does not mean we are higher in IQ or wiser. Wisdom is in applying knowledge for life, health and society. Much wisdom is in the scriptures.

Where do you live where most born agains are in communes? Where I live, they are government officials running for U.S. President, in my workplace, my schools, my local shopping centers. This is getting weird, Mark...

The US is behind most of the world in that respect. Mark lives in a more enlightened place. I think they call it Australia.

The fact that "born agains" are running for president in the US is depressing and scary. Good thing they have no chance of winning.
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22-07-2015, 11:07 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
By the way, I'm still waiting for just one actual example of Paul basing his belief in Christ's divinity on Old Testament prophecies. And all I'm hearing is...

Crickets
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22-07-2015, 11:43 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(22-07-2015 10:41 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 08:11 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  It's metaphor, you imbeclie. Ancient Near Easten literature used many literary devices. Your anal-retentive childish *need* to read then only literally exposes your ignornace of that culture, ana lack a tiotaal lack of respect and confidence for any real wisdom in that literature. If people today say "You better be prepared, large catststophes are coming" that means (as we all know) there will be earthquakes and foods, and majot disruptions. It's DOESN'T mean anyone is claiming to be predicting when they will occur or that some deity his given them special knowledge of the future. So again, you are flat out wrong.

But I get it you are into interpreting omens. Jebus no likey that shit.
Deuteronomy 18:10
"Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,

What tools are you using (other than a bias against miracles including prediction) to decide what in the Bible is metaphor and what is literal? I don't wish to argue the obvious context of Deut 18 with you, but you seem pretty sure it is literal, not metaphorical, but that several thousand prophecies are metaphors and not literal statements.

Your question betrays your ignorance of ancient Near Eastern literature, and it's literary types. Again, you REALLY need to get an education.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-07-2015, 09:05 PM (This post was last modified: 23-07-2015 01:45 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(22-07-2015 10:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(22-07-2015 03:42 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  How many born agains do you rapport with, really? Really listen to them and sift their ideas and discuss?

These people that you mention, I know them, they're quite lame.... I'd like to rearrange their faces, and give them all another name.

Seriously though, I live in a rather more rational part of the world than you. The "born agains" here tend to live in communes and fund their lifestyle by ripping the government off. They don't talk to me much. Christianity is not part of the real, functional world here. It is for the pathetically deluded, the mentally unwell, the desperate down and outers, and any other missfits some local guru has taken advantage of.

Do I talk to them? Yes... I make the effort. Yet 99% of the time they are intellectually vacuous, and therefore unable to hold a quality conversation. Rather like you actually... although, some credit where it's due, you do keep coming back. What a shame you have nothing to say that adds any value to the conversation. I think you haven't disappeared because...when you come here you can escape your friends... and have some real conversations with some real people.... even if we do heap shit on you.Big Grin

You missed my point utterly. We are more knowledgeable than ancients but this does not mean we are higher in IQ or wiser. Wisdom is in applying knowledge for life, health and society. Much wisdom is in the scriptures.

Where do you live where most born agains are in communes? Where I live, they are government officials running for U.S. President, in my workplace, my schools, my local shopping centers. This is getting weird, Mark...

No...I got it. You missed my point, which is the important one.

Nowadays we have secular law, which usually protects the rights of individuals and minorities. The law in your babble does not.

Modern societies respect women (that's half the human race.) We don't bad mouth, or kill them, for losing their virginity. We don't allow rape. We don't marry them off when they are 12 years old. We don't insist they obey their husbands. Daughters are not considered their father's property. The babble treats women like cattle and as the property of their father's and their hushand's.

We like and respect homosexuals. The Bible doesn't.

We value thinkers and scientists. The Bible doesn't.

We don't patronise people by promising then heaven and we don't threaten them with everlasting hell. The Bible does.

We treat mental illness with supplements and medications, and they work. The Bible treats mental illness with promises of miracles and prayers and that never works.

We understand and embrace human sexuality for what it is. The Bible turns it into an evil thing.

We don't say "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemies," we say respect your fellow man, but defend yourself if necessary.

Every year we make advances in chemistry, physics, biology, medicine, law, computing and communication. The babble never makes any advances, and denigrates any new thought. The battle is stuck, set in stone, unable to change or adapt.

We don't say "blessed are the poor in spirit", and "dream about heaven," and "don't worry about tomorrow." We say make your life on earth meaningful... it is the only life you will ever have.

The Bible was written to control people and to give kings and priests an income. Secular law, by and large, has been written so that all members of society get a fair go.

Most modern societies do not pander to priests and other religious authorities. We encourage people to think for themselves, and to use resources to make their lives better.

So don't give me your "much wisdom in the scriptures" bullshit. You are reading your babble with rose coloured glasses.
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22-07-2015, 09:23 PM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2015 09:35 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(22-07-2015 10:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(22-07-2015 03:42 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  How many born agains do you rapport with, really? Really listen to them and sift their ideas and discuss?

These people that you mention, I know them, they're quite lame.... I'd like to rearrange their faces, and give them all another name.

Seriously though, I live in a rather more rational part of the world than you. The "born agains" here tend to live in communes and fund their lifestyle by ripping the government off. They don't talk to me much. Christianity is not part of the real, functional world here. It is for the pathetically deluded, the mentally unwell, the desperate down and outers, and any other missfits some local guru has taken advantage of.

Do I talk to them? Yes... I make the effort. Yet 99% of the time they are intellectually vacuous, and therefore unable to hold a quality conversation. Rather like you actually... although, some credit where it's due, you do keep coming back. What a shame you have nothing to say that adds any value to the conversation. I think you haven't disappeared because...when you come here you can escape your friends... and have some real conversations with some real people.... even if we do heap shit on you.Big Grin

You missed my point utterly. We are more knowledgeable than ancients but this does not mean we are higher in IQ or wiser. Wisdom is in applying knowledge for life, health and society. Much wisdom is in the scriptures.

Where do you live where most born agains are in communes? Where I live, they are government officials running for U.S. President, in my workplace, my schools, my local shopping centers. This is getting weird, Mark...

These jokers live just up the road....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G98HpaszT5s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVw0eFmnQtM
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22-07-2015, 09:30 PM (This post was last modified: 23-07-2015 01:43 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(22-07-2015 10:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(22-07-2015 03:42 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  How many born agains do you rapport with, really? Really listen to them and sift their ideas and discuss?

These people that you mention, I know them, they're quite lame.... I'd like to rearrange their faces, and give them all another name.

Seriously though, I live in a rather more rational part of the world than you. The "born agains" here tend to live in communes and fund their lifestyle by ripping the government off. They don't talk to me much. Christianity is not part of the real, functional world here. It is for the pathetically deluded, the mentally unwell, the desperate down and outers, and any other missfits some local guru has taken advantage of.

Do I talk to them? Yes... I make the effort. Yet 99% of the time they are intellectually vacuous, and therefore unable to hold a quality conversation. Rather like you actually... although, some credit where it's due, you do keep coming back. What a shame you have nothing to say that adds any value to the conversation. I think you haven't disappeared because...when you come here you can escape your friends... and have some real conversations with some real people.... even if we do heap shit on you.Big Grin

You missed my point utterly. We are more knowledgeable than ancients but this does not mean we are higher in IQ or wiser. Wisdom is in applying knowledge for life, health and society. Much wisdom is in the scriptures.

Where do you live where most born agains are in communes? Where I live, they are government officials running for U.S. President, in my workplace, my schools, my local shopping centers. This is getting weird, Mark...

"Where I live, they are government officials running for U.S. President, in my workplace, my schools, my local shopping centers. This is getting weird, Mark..."

Yeah, I know about America. Perhaps one of the scariest things for the rest of the world was that George W Bush is a fundamentalist Christian, and he had his fingers on nuclear buttons. Thank Christopher that Obama is only a pretend Christian, and a closet atheist at heart. He's a little too smart to be in the dumb crowd.

It is fundamentalist Christian society that is "weird," a fact the rest of the world is only too well aware of.
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23-07-2015, 01:42 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(22-07-2015 11:07 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  By the way, I'm still waiting for just one actual example of Paul basing his belief in Christ's divinity on Old Testament prophecies. And all I'm hearing is...

Crickets

Me too. Mmmm...unlike Q to avoid answering a questionBig Grin
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23-07-2015, 02:01 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(20-07-2015 05:04 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(20-07-2015 10:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Again, I won't take you on in a debate where you rapid-fire post eight or nine messages. Keep it neat.

Have you heard of N.T. Wright? He has released a two-volume, 1,600-page set on Paul answering the questions you've posted above and more. Start there...

"Again, I won't take you on in a debate where you rapid-fire post eight or nine messages. Keep it neat."

Aw....come on.... please poke your nose out of the trench.... just one more time

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6AtG4pmX_Y

I can't believe nobody "liked" this.

Come on guys...I'm brilliant and really funny....didn't you know?
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23-07-2015, 05:14 AM (This post was last modified: 23-07-2015 05:19 AM by TheInquisition.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(22-07-2015 09:23 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(22-07-2015 10:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You missed my point utterly. We are more knowledgeable than ancients but this does not mean we are higher in IQ or wiser. Wisdom is in applying knowledge for life, health and society. Much wisdom is in the scriptures.

Where do you live where most born agains are in communes? Where I live, they are government officials running for U.S. President, in my workplace, my schools, my local shopping centers. This is getting weird, Mark...

These jokers live just up the road....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G98HpaszT5s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVw0eFmnQtM

He reminds me of Yahoo Serious, but not near as harmless:





Maybe Q shouldn't watch that, I think control and manipulation of people like that is his deepest fantasy.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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