Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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24-07-2015, 10:50 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(24-07-2015 09:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 10:16 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  This might be covered in one of the videos Bucky Ball posted (I haven't had time to watch them), but I would expect you to know anyway that the consensus of Biblical scholars is that Hebrews was almost certainly not written by Paul. So you're still striking out. How about you provide me with an example from an Epistle that was actually written by Paul? I believe there are 7 of those. Hebrews is not one of them. It's not even one of the disputed ones.

I know the consensus. Did you read my post at all where I said I think Paul wrote it? Did you read my post where I made a stand for the legitimacy of quoting Hebrews as Pauline.

But here's several hundred OT verses Paul quotes, many/most of them legitimizing Jesus as the Christ:

http://www.freewebs.com/thywordis/PAUL%2...E%20OT.htm

Thanks.

Yes, I saw where you said you think Paul wrote it. It doesn't matter what you think -- the overwhelming majority of Biblical scholars are certain that Paul did not write it. I have a volume of Paul's complete writings. It contains the 7 authentic epistles and the 6 disputed ones, along with numerous other "pseudo-Pauline" writings. It does not contain Hebrews. Like I said yesterday, Hebrews is not even one of the disputed epistles. The experts are certain that it was not written by Paul. So it doesn't count.

Furthermore, you are moving the goal posts. I don't care about Paul "legitimizing Jesus as the Christ". Yes, he does that and does it a lot. That's not what I was questioning. The dispute is very specifically about him using Old Testament prophecies to do so. And I didn't ask for a long list of things that may or may not be relevant. Please give me one specific reference to a passage in one of Paul's 7 authentic epistles, in which he specifically uses an Old Testament prophecy to legitimize Jesus as Christ. The way you've been squirming and evading so far, I'm pretty sure you can't do what I'm asking, so I'm not holding my breath.
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24-07-2015, 03:22 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(24-07-2015 09:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 10:16 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  This might be covered in one of the videos Bucky Ball posted (I haven't had time to watch them), but I would expect you to know anyway that the consensus of Biblical scholars is that Hebrews was almost certainly not written by Paul. So you're still striking out. How about you provide me with an example from an Epistle that was actually written by Paul? I believe there are 7 of those. Hebrews is not one of them. It's not even one of the disputed ones.

I know the consensus. Did you read my post at all where I said I think Paul wrote it? Did you read my post where I made a stand for the legitimacy of quoting Hebrews as Pauline.

But here's several hundred OT verses Paul quotes, many/most of them legitimizing Jesus as the Christ:

http://www.freewebs.com/thywordis/PAUL%2...E%20OT.htm

Thanks.

We all agree Paul used the OT. So what?

I pressed on your link. None of the OT quotes "legitimize Jesus as the Christ." Produce one.

Also, you are yet to respond to my post about reading the Old Testament in context. I really want to see how you'll try to wiggle your way out of that argument.
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24-07-2015, 03:40 PM (This post was last modified: 25-07-2015 02:24 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(23-07-2015 09:23 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(22-07-2015 11:07 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  By the way, I'm still waiting for just one actual example of Paul basing his belief in Christ's divinity on Old Testament prophecies. And all I'm hearing is...

Crickets

First thing that comes to mind is the entire book of Hebrews! Understand that almost zero of Paul's ideas are anything but exposition of OT scriptures and prophecy. (Understand I believe Paul wrote Hebrews.)

Just from the first chapter of Hebrews:

For to which of the angels did God ever say,

“You are my Son;
today I have become your Father”?

Or again,

“I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son”?

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,

“Let all God’s angels worship him.”

7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy."

10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”

13 To which of the angels did God ever say,

“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”?

14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?

Or we could look at other epistles--but since Mark and BB try to tell me that what I think are some of Paul's letters aren't, I guess I can use Hebrews just as well!

Q, you wrote

"Understand that almost zero of Paul's ideas are anything but exposition of OT scriptures and prophecy."

I agree that Paul sources many concepts from the OT! Although I would add that Paul mixed in bits of Mithraism and other ideas sourced from his imagination. And I'm not sure that he gets his Christ from the OT either.

Now...this places the ball in your court. Please explain why Paul never mentions Jesus' miracles, sayings or parables. Why does Paul never document what Jesus said or did? Why does Paul barely talk about James, the brother of the son of God, Peter, one of Jesus' best mates, and never talks about Mary, the mother of the son of God? Why was Paul so obsessed with the (now so-called) Old Testament when your Jeebus' family and friends were still alive and living in Jerusalem?

The answer, of course, is that your Jeebus is a comic book character who hadn't been created (in the gospels) yet, ie at the time Paul wrote. The major players in the gospels had no idea there were going to play starring roles in the greatest works of fiction in the world (the gospels,) and neither did Paul, and this is made very apparent when reading Paul's works.

Has the penny dropped for you yet? Or are you going to make up some nonsense to explain these undeniable facts?
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25-07-2015, 04:10 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(08-04-2015 05:04 AM)Mage The Entertainer Wrote:  Jesus dying for our sins serves no purpose when its his daddy that requires the death penalty for though crimes and victim-less crimes in the first place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pl1AIbUois
It is true that penalty for any sin is death. It is Justice. But where is Mercy?
Because of the Atonement(Jesus dying for our sins) we can have both Justice and Mercy.

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25-07-2015, 04:20 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Alla - I declare that unless you willingly suck my dick, you must bear the death penalty. I am powerful because I have a gun. I am merciful because I give you the option to suck my dick in order to live.

You don't want to suck my dick, you say? *POW!* JUSTICE!

When the Almighty Being sets up the preconditions for the death penalty (what you call sin), and then offers a "way out of it", any way out of it, preconditioned on acceptance of its will, then it is the moral equivalent of a rapist and a murderer.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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25-07-2015, 04:51 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 04:10 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(08-04-2015 05:04 AM)Mage The Entertainer Wrote:  Jesus dying for our sins serves no purpose when its his daddy that requires the death penalty for though crimes and victim-less crimes in the first place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pl1AIbUois
It is true that penalty for any sin is death. It is Justice. But where is Mercy?
Because of the Atonement(Jesus dying for our sins) we can have both Justice and Mercy.

Thanks for asserting your deity is subject to reality, and not it's master. A real deity could provide mercy and justice by decree, and not need a price paid first. Your god is a dick, and a needy one.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-07-2015, 06:00 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 04:51 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  A real deity could provide mercy and justice by decree, and not need a price paid first. Your god is a dick, and a needy one.
How? Let's say Justice for murder is death. Period. How can you show Mercy without robbing Justice?

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25-07-2015, 06:02 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 04:20 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Alla - I declare that unless you willingly suck my dick, you must bear the death penalty.
sure, you may declare it. Yes

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25-07-2015, 06:07 PM (This post was last modified: 25-07-2015 06:12 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 06:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 04:20 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Alla - I declare that unless you willingly suck my dick, you must bear the death penalty.
sure, you may declare it. Yes





Just suck on my chocolate salty balls. Stick 'em in your mouth and suck 'em.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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25-07-2015, 06:25 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 06:07 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 06:02 PM)Alla Wrote:  sure, you may declare it. Yes





Just suck on my chocolate salty balls. Stick 'em in your mouth and suck 'em.
It calls war on women.
P.S. you are sexist. may be it is because you liberal Wink

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