Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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16-04-2015, 09:50 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(15-04-2015 02:36 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 02:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  All,

1. I don't believe in original sin. Original sin is circa Augustine 300 years after Jesus. He cited Romans 5 for his belief--I find rather the opposite. How would you interpret this?

"Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.."

I take "because all sinned" as the way "all have death through sin". That is, I don't believe being born is a sin. I believe babies are lovely people. It's the adults we need to worry about--babies tend not to rape, steal and kill other babies.

2. Others here ask why it has to be Jesus who pays for sin. I might as well ask:

* Why do I have to repay my credit cards with money? Can I give them a dead body as a sacrifice? Can I give them two goats?

* Why do we have some criminals do community service? Can't they just give large fines to the government instead? Don't the actors who have to do community service have millions of dollars they can add to our tax rolls instead?

etc.

First of all nobody cares what you think of original sin - you may think many things, but again it is only what you think and not know.

Secondly, you pay your credit debt because you are accountable for the balance of charges. Criminals do community service as a consequence for their crimes, which they are responsible for doing. I can pay your debts or serve time for your crimes, but it does not take away your accountability to those infractions.

Scape-goating is not moral and does not, nor ever did, take away personal accountability. The jesus myth is such that, a scape-goating myth in your cult of human sacrifice.

How then would you ask a Stalin who killed millions to pay an equal restitution for his crimes?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-04-2015, 09:53 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(15-04-2015 05:36 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 02:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.."
Was Jesus human? Did he sin?
How can you claim "because all sinned"?
(15-04-2015 02:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I take "because all sinned" as the way "all have death through sin". That is, I don't believe being born is a sin. I believe babies are lovely people. It's the adults we need to worry about--babies tend not to rape, steal and kill other babies.
Young children need to learn how the world works. There is a stage in their young lives where it is al about them. They see a toy they want, they take it. If another kid has it they snatch it.
But what they quickly learn is that if they snatch it then the other kid hits them, they also learn that if they hit another kid, then sometimes the other kid hits back. They start to learn the limitations of what they can get away with, they start to learn not to snatch things, especially from big kids, because otherwise they end up getting hurt. They turn that concept in their minds into the ideals of fairness and sharing and caring. It's not about being born uncorrupted and becoming corrupted as an adult.
(15-04-2015 02:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. Others here ask why it has to be Jesus who pays for sin. I might as well ask:

* Why do I have to repay my credit cards with money? Can I give them a dead body as a sacrifice? Can I give them two goats?
When we pay a creditor money, the creditor gains something of value to them. They gain money that they can then use to get things that they want.
If someone is put to death for sin, what value does the god get from the death? What can the god then do with that death?
(15-04-2015 02:18 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  * Why do we have some criminals do community service? Can't they just give large fines to the government instead? Don't the actors who have to do community service have millions of dollars they can add to our tax rolls instead?
I really don't like the idea of justice. As a society we punish transgressors as a disincentive to other transgressions, or we remove dangerous people from society to stop them being a danger to society.
For some criminals doing community service is more of a disincentive than just paying an affordable fine.

(15-04-2015 02:25 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Is there anything that is worthy of capital punishment/death?
From a justice perspective - No.
From a safety perspective - Yes. Repeat pedophiles are a continued danger to society. Storing them in prison forever costs society lots of money. If we could put them down in a cost effective manner then society is all the better having removed the threat and having saved money that could perhaps be given to victims or to the health system.

Good points all--you may recall that Paul in that same passage says "death reigned between Adam and Jesus... because all [of them between] sinned." Paul wasn't saying Christ sinned. However, Jesus became sin on our behalf, to save us.

Quote:If someone is put to death for sin, what value does the god get from the death?

I suppose if one person dies the payment is made for one other person. But if GOD dies... and I think that is what scripture teaches us... wow.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-04-2015, 09:56 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(15-04-2015 05:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(14-04-2015 01:46 PM)Dusky Wrote:  Is being born a sin?
Many Christians (Catholic especially) state that Jesus could pay for our sin with his death because he was innocent (without sin).
They also claim that us humans inherit the sins of our parents and ancestors going all the way back to original sin by Adam and Eve.
They cite that Jesus was special, living the human life but being able to achieve it without sin, showing us that it could be done.
If we inherit the sins of our parents, all the way back to Adam and Eve then even if no more sin were performed, at the very least we would inherit original sin. Thus we are not free from sin, thus we "deserve" death in the god's eye.
Jesus mother was supposedly Mary, Mary was supposedly human, a descendant of Adam and Eve. Jesus therefore was born with the stain of original sin. If somehow he didn't have that, then he was hardly human and could not attest to achieving a sinless human life.

Going by the sin = destined for death theme, if Jesus was free from sin then he was free from death. Supposedly if not put to death he would have lingered longer than the rest of us, possibly be a 2,000 year old man walking around and "preaching" on street corners. (I swear I've seen him).
But if he were human then he would have eventually died even if he weren't crucified. He would have died of some disease, like polio, leporacy, gonorrhea, cancer or if he were very lucky he would have died of old age.
If however his state of being "sin free" meant that he couldn't die this would mean that he was immune to disease, even immune to old age or even accidents etc. He could have fallen off a 100 M cliff and walked away, he could have had a sword pierce his side and walked away, he could have been nailed to a cross and walked away (once the nails were pulled out).
So how could he have died at the hands of the Romans?
Jesus could have sacrificed himself by intentionally sinning as this would have been akin to giving away his "cannot die/get out of jail free" card.
But then he would have been a sinner like the rest of us and there would have been nothing remarkable about his death.
According to the myth, Jesus died as payment for our sins. So how was this arrangement made? Who were the parties involved? It certainly wasn't me or anyone who is alive today as we weren't around when this deal was allegedly struck.
So it would have to have been a private arrangement between the god and Jesus. For this arrangement to have been made, the god was in the power seat, the god had the power to enforce death or to grant clemency. Apparently the god demanded death (and executed the punishment) of the sinner as payment from the person committing or inheriting sin from ancestors. Kings of old did this sort of thing, sentenced people to death, presumably as a show of power to disincentive would-be rebellious behavior. Or merely as a proud show of power. Kings, being mortal and hence in danger of rebellion have a perceived need to squash any rebellious thoughts from the people that might present a danger to the King. An all powerful immortal god on the other hand has no dangers, so could only be driven in this blood lust requirement for death by a proud desire to show off his power.
It is a bit ridiculous to consider that if the god and Jesus are one and the same, that the god made a deal with himself to "sacrifice" himself to appease himself of his demanded blood sacrifice for transgressions by humans against his own demands on how people are to behave.
It fails as a show of power, I mean "Don't sin otherwise I will kill myself on your behalf and then I will come back from being dead and forgive you" isn't really a knee trembling threat. It's more of a face palming, head scratching hysterical crazy laughter inspiring statement.
"Really? OK, you do that to yourself god, I don't really care, knock yourself out buddy, whatever get's you off, you know."
It's not really much of a sacrifice if he comes back, and what does the god gain from the whole thing? What value does a god get from a human sacrifice? Its madness to demand sacrifice if you gain nothing from it.

But still, the whole crucification was unimportant. If Jesus was "sacrificed" in this unholy deal then all that would be needed would be to take away Jesus death immunity card. Jesus would then have to traverse a mortal human life which would have given him a vastly different human experience. He would now be susceptible to disease and injury. His life faced with these inevitabilities would have been vastly more interesting and fruitful than a simple crucification. The crucification was just one of the may ways that humans at the time died. Unremarkable.
Was there any narrative in the bible to suggest Jesus made such a deal with himself (I mean, god)?
Was there any narrative in the bible to suggest Jesus was immortal prior to the deal but mortal afterwards?
Now, if Jesus "sacrifice" was accepted as payment for our sins and hence taken away the need for death, one has to ask, why since then do humans continue to die?

Good points all. My responses to you:

1. I hope I've made it clear that original sin first appeared circa three centuries after Jesus. The Bible teaches the opposite in both testaments... the OT says, "No longer will it be said the son pays for the father's sins..."

2. You have some good ideas there but wouldn't most Christians not talk about kingship appeasement and deals and so forth, but love? The love of Christ for us?

Quote:Now, if Jesus "sacrifice" was accepted as payment for our sins and hence taken away the need for death, one has to ask, why since then do humans continue to die?

3. Great question. The answer is "because there are two deaths (separations)". All inherit Adam's mortal nature since the Fall of Eden. However, all are also judged after death to be eternally separated unless they have taken refuge in Christ. Two deaths.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-04-2015, 09:59 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(15-04-2015 10:58 PM)claywise Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 05:48 PM)Stevil Wrote:  An all powerful immortal god on the other hand has no dangers, so could only be driven in this blood lust requirement for death by a proud desire to show off his power.

Some time ago I decided that if any group of theists had it right (and I don't personally think any do, but if one did), it would be the Muslims.

Contrary to the nonsense floated around these days, Islam does not mean "peace." It means "submission," and that is a perfectly sensible, even rational response to a truly omniscient god, at least if your goal is to avoid torture.

In the face of a truly omniscient god, which can order things any way it pleases—up to and including the idiotic sacrifice-myself-to-myself-to-atone-for-sins-I-forced-humans-into bullshit of Christianity—the best way to survive would be utter submission. Think of it as being a slave to a cruel, murderous master. Doesn't make for much of a life, but if survival is the goal, and avoidance of terror and pain, it makes sense.

The Christian story fails in so many ways, but primary among them is the ridiculous contortions believers must go through to rectify the idea of an all-good, all-powerful, all-knowning god with rationality and common sense.

Dear Q Cunt: you remain as unpersuasive as ever.

I'm sorry you feel my goal is to persuade you. You are the steward of your own mind and choices. However, comments like you've made above tempt me to think:

* You don't believe in free thought, only skeptical thought. There is no room at your table for Christians.

* You don't feel as though TTA - the THINKING atheist - should tolerate or welcome diversity or diverse ideas - that is to say, thinking that deviates from your party line. If your rationale is a strong as you claim, you should be able to defend it from my viewpoints without resorting to name calling.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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16-04-2015, 11:27 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(16-04-2015 09:50 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(15-04-2015 02:36 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  First of all nobody cares what you think of original sin - you may think many things, but again it is only what you think and not know.

Secondly, you pay your credit debt because you are accountable for the balance of charges. Criminals do community service as a consequence for their crimes, which they are responsible for doing. I can pay your debts or serve time for your crimes, but it does not take away your accountability to those infractions.

Scape-goating is not moral and does not, nor ever did, take away personal accountability. The jesus myth is such that, a scape-goating myth in your cult of human sacrifice.

How then would you ask a Stalin who killed millions to pay an equal restitution for his crimes?

There really is something wrong with you. The porch light is a flickering but nobody is home in Q-ville. I am not even going to explain how truly stupid you and the question are, but only say that a human sacrifice would be the last thing I would recommend as restitution for HIS crimes.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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16-04-2015, 01:24 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(16-04-2015 09:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Good points all--you may recall that Paul in that same passage says "death reigned between Adam and Jesus... because all [of them between] sinned." Paul wasn't saying Christ sinned. However, Jesus became sin on our behalf, to save us.
Because Paul said so, or because there was some kind of unholy deal between Jesus and God?

(16-04-2015 09:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
Quote:If someone is put to death for sin, what value does the god get from the death?

I suppose if one person dies the payment is made for one other person. But if GOD dies... and I think that is what scripture teaches us... wow.
Sorry, but who gains value from the death?
I mean, we pay a creditor, we pay them back their initial investment in us and we give them some profit (interest) back. They are rewarded with money which they can use to buy food for their family.

What is it that the god benefits from with the death as payment for sin thing?
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16-04-2015, 01:29 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(16-04-2015 09:50 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  How then would you ask a Stalin who killed millions to pay an equal restitution for his crimes?
Justice cannot be had. Justice is a very strange concept which may make sense to people harboring hate and vengeance, but to society we don't need justice, we need safety.

Simply removing Stalin from society provides society with safety as he can no longer kill millions. If we kill him then that might show other would-be Stalins that their own life is at risk if they try the same shit.
If we kill Stalin it is not as a sacrifice or as a payment or as justice, it is as a deterrent for others.
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16-04-2015, 03:45 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Now I feel it also should be noted that Stalin never PERSONALLY killed anyone. He knew how to get people to do his dirty work but never pulled the trigger. Just like Charles Manson who we consider a serial killer. We count the blood being on their hands. Dose this still fall under the "You shall not murder" commandment?

I'll tell you one thing thou. Had I had omnipotent power, and was omniscient maybe i would have given Stalin that fatal heart attack earlier in his life, or maybe made his father not be a drunk so he wouldn't beat him.

And if we're playing that God is real. And the Bible stories true. Then all the blood is on god's hands. Every senseless murder, ever rape, EVERY torture! How many lives did God take when he "flooded the world"? How many lives where taken when God guided those Jewish Armies? How many lives have been lost in just our life times? We see this continuous war in Israeli. Some promised land that turned out to be.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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16-04-2015, 05:41 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(16-04-2015 09:53 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But if GOD dies... and I think that is what scripture teaches us... wow.

"God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him. How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it?"

#sigh
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16-04-2015, 06:12 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(08-04-2015 10:43 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-04-2015 05:04 AM)Mage The Entertainer Wrote:  Jesus dying for our sins serves no purpose when its his daddy that requires the death penalty for though crimes and victim-less crimes in the first place.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Pl1AIbUois

Yet, we live in a world in which death holds the greatest significance. That great love, is a love that would lay down its life for a friend. We revere our martyrs, and our heroes who sacrificed their lives. Nothing that reminds us of the significance of our loved one's, of others, our causes, and the preciousness and meaning of our lives than death.

Maybe if god had sacrificed himself and not his son I would be impressed. Martyrdom by proxy doesn't count.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF

We're all mad here. The Cheshire Cat
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