Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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25-07-2015, 08:21 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(23-07-2015 09:27 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... the folly of rejecting God and the wisdom of trusting God! ...

I. Many reject not just god and gods but the very concept. If this is "folly" then deleterious consequences result (otherwise the "folly" is innocuous and not "folly").
A. List and describe the deleterious consequences.
B. Which of the above specified consequences could also happen to a believer?

II. Re: the "wisdom" of trusting god:
A. To do what, specifically?
B. Are there occasions where it is best to trust some agency other than a god to produce the desired outcome (e.g. trust a doctor instead of a god to remedy a serious medical malady)?
C. If there are occasions per B, how does one determine what occasions are best left to a god to handle? Would it be "folly" in a situation where there is not yet an effective non-godly agency to develop a non-godly agency (e.g. develop medical science instead of "wisely" trust a god)?
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25-07-2015, 08:28 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 08:05 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 08:03 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  I need to pee.
Why do we have to know this?
No reason. But I need to pee.

#sigh
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25-07-2015, 08:39 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Let's say I was robbed. Somebody stole from me $10 000 and spent $9 000.
Robber was caught. Perfect justice for me is to have my $10 000 back. Mercy for robber is to forgive him or to make him pay back what he has. He has only $1 000.
By forgiving him or giving me only $1 000 justice for me was robbed. It is not perfect any more.
So how can God forgive robber and give perfect justice for me at the same time?
When Adam and Eve transgressed the law justice was death. If God forgave them perfect justice would be robbed. Would God do something imperfect? The answer is no.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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25-07-2015, 08:52 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 08:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  Let's say I was robbed. Somebody stole from me $10 000 and spent $9 000.
Robber was caught. Perfect justice for me is to have my $10 000 back. Mercy for robber is to forgive him or to make him pay back what he has. He has only $1 000.
By forgiving him or giving me only $1 000 justice for me was robbed. It is not perfect any more.
So how can God forgive robber and give perfect justice for me at the same time?
When Adam and Eve transgressed the law justice was death. If God forgave them perfect justice would be robbed. Would God do something imperfect? The answer is no.

Do you need to pee?

#sigh
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25-07-2015, 08:54 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 08:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  Let's say I was robbed. Somebody stole from me $10 000 and spent $9 000.
Robber was caught. Perfect justice for me is to have my $10 000 back. Mercy for robber is to forgive him or to make him pay back what he has. He has only $1 000.
By forgiving him or giving me only $1 000 justice for me was robbed. It is not perfect any more.
So how can God forgive robber and give perfect justice for me at the same time?
When Adam and Eve transgressed the law justice was death. If God forgave them perfect justice would be robbed. Would God do something imperfect? The answer is no.

So perfect justice would be an eternity in hell?

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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25-07-2015, 09:12 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Your analogy does not hold, since whether I stole anything is the very claim one rejects, in becoming an atheist. But we'll go with your analogy for a moment, for the sake of discussion.

You keep saying that "transgressed the law" means "justice was death".

That makes your God a monster, since He made that law, in your mythology.

That's all that needs to be discussed, since it begins and ends with that fact. God made The Rules of the Universe™, and made it so that the "justice" of which you speak is revenge for transgression against this Being's will. (According to your Holy Book™, of course.) Since we apparently all "steal $10,000" by our birth and by our very nature (also according to the Book, say most traditions), we're born into this debt. And now we're told that if we don't pay this "sin-debt", we're going to be tormented for eternity in the fires of hell. Unless, of course, we accept "Mercy" in the form of servitude. God is a rapist.

In prison, many sexual predators have hit upon this tactic: They set up a situation where a friend of theirs will threaten you with danger, and if you're too afraid to fight them, then the Rescuer will swoop in, later saying "I helped you back there, so now you owe me, or I'll do worse to you than what I saved you from. Now suck my dick."

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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25-07-2015, 09:28 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 08:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  ... Somebody stole from me $10,000 and spent $9,000 ... Perfect justice for me is to have my $10,000 back.

Only per one of an infinite set of possibilities. Another possibility would make allowance for the inconvenience of being deprived of your $10,000 for the period of time you didn't have it AND calculate a compensation for your degree of emotional trauma suffered. Another would derive an algorithm to compute a mitigation factor, such as what the robber took the $10,000 for, e.g. medicine and medical treatment for his cancer-ridden 3 year old daughter, or to bribe a public official to get a waiver in order to operate an unlicensed food dispensary to feed the homeless ...

Etcetera. A full accounting of everything the robbery would impact AND assigning valuations to them would take time and money to produce (itself one of the "impacts" that would have to be accounted for), and necessarily involve subjective assessments (how much is "good intention" worth to the nearest significant dollar)?

Justice is therefore NEVER perfect nor should its perfection even be sought; instead we develop what culture determines is "close enough" and settle it and then proceed with the rest of our lives. To even imagine there'd be such a thing as "perfect" justice is to lose sight of what matters: that justice of some kind is made, not that its "perfection" is "perfected".

Any rationally operating god would recognize the unattainability of so-called "perfect" justice, that "perfection" would be according to the eyes of each observer, and would wisely leave adjudication to the parties to resolve themselves rather than intercede and wind up just confusing everybody and irritating them.
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25-07-2015, 09:30 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 08:54 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 08:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  Let's say I was robbed. Somebody stole from me $10 000 and spent $9 000.
Robber was caught. Perfect justice for me is to have my $10 000 back. Mercy for robber is to forgive him or to make him pay back what he has. He has only $1 000.
By forgiving him or giving me only $1 000 justice for me was robbed. It is not perfect any more.
So how can God forgive robber and give perfect justice for me at the same time?
When Adam and Eve transgressed the law justice was death. If God forgave them perfect justice would be robbed. Would God do something imperfect? The answer is no.

So perfect justice would be an eternity in hell?
yes, the same as perfect justice is to pay me back all $10 000.
Would perfect God do imperfect justice? The answer is No
But God's Mercy is also always perfect.
So, how can perfect God do perfect Mercy without robbing perfect Justice?
The answer is Atonement by some one else.
If robber has no money to pay me back but someone else will pay for him then I will have perfect justice - my $10 000 back and robber will have perfect mercy - he owes me NOTHING.
P.S.so, I explained the Atonement plainly.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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25-07-2015, 09:35 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 08:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  Let's say I was robbed. Somebody stole from me $10 000 and spent $9 000.
Robber was caught. Perfect justice for me is to have my $10 000 back. Mercy for robber is to forgive him or to make him pay back what he has. He has only $1 000.
By forgiving him or giving me only $1 000 justice for me was robbed. It is not perfect any more.
So how can God forgive robber and give perfect justice for me at the same time?
When Adam and Eve transgressed the law justice was death. If God forgave them perfect justice would be robbed. Would God do something imperfect? The answer is no.

Adam and Eve were myths. It's a story. Nothing more.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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25-07-2015, 09:44 PM (This post was last modified: 25-07-2015 09:48 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Except it's a false scenario!

Your God and Jesus, in this situation/example, are the rapist prisoner and his buddy.

God sets up the scenario which puts you in danger. Jesus "saves" you from it, then says you owe him worship.

The only way your religion fits your theft scenarion is if I'm born with $10,000 in my account, that I am told is already claimed by one Alla, who says I stole it. Except I check my account and find no money there. And even if I had it, I have no way to give it to her, because I can't find or see her, and she says (in a book, and via her servants) that it's too late, you already took the money. Further, every time I make a dollar, Alla says that's hers, too. Alla's gonna kill me at the end of the year if I don't start working as a slave for JimBob, the servant who told me about the debt to Alla. Thus Sayeth the Book. Perfect justice for my theft, after all. And perfect mercy, since I'm told (by JibBob) that Bill Gates (whom I've never met and who won't return my calls) is paying for my debt, so long as I work for JimBob.

Yeah. Perfect Justice and Perfect Mercy. Give me a break! Laugh out load

(Edit to Add: Jim Huber already summed up your analogy with the parable of Kissing Hank's Ass. http://www.jhuger.com/kissing-hanks-ass )

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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