Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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25-07-2015, 09:59 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 09:12 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Your analogy does not hold, since whether I stole anything is the very claim one rejects, in becoming an atheist. But we'll go with your analogy for a moment, for the sake of discussion.
You keep saying that "transgressed the law" means "justice was death".
That makes your God a monster, since He made that law, in your mythology.
I do not know if you read in the Bible the story that happened in the garden of Eden. But I will inform you in case you didn't read or remind you in case you read that God said to Adam and Eve that they will die if they transgress the law. And He said that they will die the same day they partake of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.
What did He mean? He meant that they will become fallen/sinners. To become fallen or sinner is spiritual death. The moment Adam and Eve partook of the fruit they died spiritually. They became transgressors/fallen/sinners.
Spiritual death also means separation from God. That is why they had to leave garden of Eden. Place where they can be with God/be in presence of God.
If you lie you become a liar and you can not dwell with Gods. A liar is spiritually dead person.
(25-07-2015 09:12 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Since we apparently all "steal $10,000" by our birth and by our very nature (also according to the Book, say most traditions), we're born into this debt. And now we're told that if we don't pay this "sin-debt", we're going to be tormented for eternity in the fires of hell. Unless, of course, we accept "Mercy" in the form of servitude. God is a rapist.
It is not true that we are born into debt. We are born as clean and as pure as angels in heaven. If we do not commit any sin as Jesus did we are not dead spiritually and we do not deserve hell. Every child who died is sinless. He ows to God nothing.
But we all die physically. And because it is not our fault that we are born mortal we don't have to do anything to be resurrected from the dead. Thanks to Jesus. This salvation/form physical death is free to all of us(including atheists)
Why are we born mortals? Punishment? No. We need mortal experience so we can learn to become like God/Gods by having different experiences and by exercising our moral agency.
(25-07-2015 09:12 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  In prison, many sexual predators have hit upon this tactic: They set up a situation where a friend of theirs will threaten you with danger, and if you're too afraid to fight them, then the Rescuer will swoop in, later saying "I helped you back there, so now you owe me, or I'll do worse to you than what I saved you from. Now suck my dick."
But we are so blessed that Jesus is not like them. Jesus says this: now you owe nothing to God Father. I paid everything for you. Perfect justice is done. Now you owe Me. Because I love you, because I am your Brother you don't have to pay me $10 000. I gave up $10 000 freely. But I want you to got up and became a better person then you are right now.
Would you like it? If yes, there is a way. We make a contract(covenant) between us. You pay me back as much as you can (even $10 back will do if it is all you capable to do/you have) and you will become like God and you will leave with Gods even with God the Father again.
By paying back all you can you are learning to be perfect.

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25-07-2015, 10:03 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 09:35 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Adam and Eve were myths. It's a story. Nothing more.
According to you. But I do not believe you. Sorry.

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25-07-2015, 10:06 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 06:00 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 04:51 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  A real deity could provide mercy and justice by decree, and not need a price paid first. Your god is a dick, and a needy one.
How? Let's say Justice for murder is death. Period. How can you show Mercy without robbing Justice?

Mercy would be quick, painless death and not an eternity in hell.

Your god is evil, sadistic and (thankfully) imaginary.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-07-2015, 10:13 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 10:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 06:00 PM)Alla Wrote:  How? Let's say Justice for murder is death. Period. How can you show Mercy without robbing Justice?

Mercy would be quick, painless death and not an eternity in hell.

Your god is evil, sadistic and (thankfully) imaginary.
I don't understand what it has to do with pain? When God talks about death being penalty for the sin He doesn't mean physical death. He means spiritual death or becoming a fallen person or a sinner/being in fallen state.
When you lie you become a liar or sinner. Sinner is spiritually dead person.
Unless you can prove to me that person who lies does not automatically become a liar.

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25-07-2015, 10:14 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
I am more familiar with the teachings of the Bible than you could possibly imagine. Many Christians believe we are born sinful, because of the Fall of Man (Original Sin), while others think we accumulate sin-debt over time after being born pure. Wasn't sure which camp you fell into, so I guessed.

You're just not getting it. Re-read my scenario carefully.

1. I am born totally unaware of this "debt" which I supposedly owe to Alla.
2. JimBob comes along and tells me, "hey you owe this debt to She Who Owns All Money, Alla, who is really pissed at you for it".
3. JimBob says, "But don't worry, Bill Gates already paid this debt. It's all right here in this book. Bill Gates pays for everyone. See? Says right here. Everyone!"
4. JimBob says, "Since you owed that big debt, and Bill Gates paid it, you now owe Bill your gratitude."
5. JimBob says, "I work for Bill, and Bill wants you to work for me for an hour every Sunday, and give me 10% of your income, and to go tell others about the debt they owe to Bill because of what they used to owe to Alla."
6. JimBob says, "If you don't do all this, Alla is going to come kill you. Oh, and don't listen to SueEllen, or go work for her; she doesn't even know Bill Gates, and doesn't have access to Alla's money, no matter what SueEllen says. Stan or Eric, either. They're all wrong. Only I know Bill Gates and his Book of Debts™."

It's the biggest con-game in history.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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25-07-2015, 10:18 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 10:13 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 10:06 PM)Chas Wrote:  Mercy would be quick, painless death and not an eternity in hell.

Your god is evil, sadistic and (thankfully) imaginary.
I don't understand what it has to do with pain? When God talks about death being penalty for the sin He doesn't mean physical death. He means spiritual death or becoming a fallen person or a sinner/being in fallen state.
When you lie you become a liar or sinner. Sinner is spiritually dead person.
Unless you can prove to me that person who lies does not automatically become a liar.

What the fuck is this woo?

Yes, they become a liar. We all lie. Anyone who says otherwise is lying. In fact, "I lie sometimes" is one of the first questions on the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Index, to spot people who habitually lie, if they check "no".

But it does not follow that our human nature makes us in a "fallen state" from some imaginary ideal of perfection. It comports with nothing we know about the world around us. It is woo of the worst sort.

As Chas says, if the Deity offered Heaven to those who obeyed, and let the rest of us die like the rest of the animal kingdom (and all other life on earth), I could perhaps accept your mythology as decent. But as soon as the notion of "or else, torture!" enters into the equation, we have a monster, as I said earlier. We have a rapist threatening people with a gun. "Love me or else!"

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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25-07-2015, 10:24 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 10:14 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I am more familiar with the teachings of the Bible than you could possibly imagine. Many Christians believe we are born sinful, because of the Fall of Man (Original Sin), while others think we accumulate sin-debt over time after being born pure. Wasn't sure which camp you fell into, so I guessed.

You're just not getting it. Re-read my scenario carefully.

1. I am born totally unaware of this "debt" which I supposedly owe to Alla.
2. JimBob comes along and tells me, "hey you owe this debt to She Who Owns All Money, Alla, who is really pissed at you for it".
3. JimBob says, "But don't worry, Bill Gates already paid this debt. It's all right here in this book. Bill Gates pays for everyone. See? Says right here. Everyone!"
4. JimBob says, "Since you owed that big debt, and Bill Gates paid it, you now owe Bill your gratitude."
5. JimBob says, "I work for Bill, and Bill wants you to work for me for an hour every Sunday, and give me 10% of your income, and to go tell others about the debt they owe to Bill because of what they used to owe to Alla."
6. JimBob says, "If you don't do all this, Alla is going to come kill you. Oh, and don't listen to SueEllen, or go work for her; she doesn't even know Bill Gates, and doesn't have access to Alla's money, no matter what SueEllen says. Stan or Eric, either. They're all wrong. Only I know Bill Gates and his Book of Debts™."

It's the biggest con-game in history.

Yep.

Well said.Bowing
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25-07-2015, 10:56 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 10:14 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I am more familiar with the teachings of the Bible than you could possibly imagine. Many Christians believe we are born sinful, because of the Fall of Man (Original Sin), while others think we accumulate sin-debt over time after being born pure. Wasn't sure which camp you fell into, so I guessed.
We are born as mortals. It means we die physically. It means we are born in fallen state. But we are born sinless. Unless you can list to me at least one sin/evil doing of the new born infant.
(25-07-2015 10:14 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  You're just not getting it. Re-read my scenario carefully.
1. I am born totally unaware of this "debt" which I supposedly owe to Alla.
I think you are not getting it. Nobody is born in debts. New born infant has no sins which means no debt. If he/she dies in 5 min after birth he/she does not deserve hell.
But when you lie or steal you know you do evil. You know you deserve punishment.

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25-07-2015, 10:56 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 08:19 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  The problem with that argument, Alla, is that all those things you speak of are "morals" we can discover by other means, and are intrinsic to human nature as a social animal. I recommend, if you are not yet familiar with them, that you look at the Secular Humanist declarations of atheistic values and morals:

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php/1169

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php/11

(These do not say that they are principles one must adopt in order to be an atheist, they are "atheistic" in the sense that they require no god, and godless people may embrace them as a moral philosophy, as I do.)

It is perfectly acceptable to have a religion that says, "If you wish to become more like God, and lead a happier life as a result, do the following things." (That is, of course, assuming you do not worship a God that is immoral by human standards, and wishes His devotees to do horrible things, which we often see in religion--particularly in the Judeo-Christian and Muslim faith traditions, and therefore we tend to oppose, as rationalists in the post-Enlightenment era.)

But when you say, "I give you knowledge", you're talking about instilling it directly into my mind, clear and unequivocal.

What if, instead, you simply handed me a book--one that was demonstratably full of pseudo- and anti-scientific nonsense and clear bigotry--which said something like "Heroin is a Chinese attempt to take over America, as well as an addictive drug, so if you want to be a good American, you should avoid it. Oh and if you don't, then the Council of True Americans will come kill you one day."

Even though the book contains one piece of true information, that heroin is an addictive drug, I'm likely to throw the whole thing in the trash bin because it is transparently not a good source of information. Or, if the Council of True Americans' philosophy becomes widespread enough, I might look more closely into it. When doing so, I find that 1) The Chinese do not seem to be doing anything to us except existing as economic rivals who look different than us, and (indeed there's a real history of racist rhetoric in the Drug War in America, not only in this example), but they are being scapegoated yet again as a way to "wag the dog" for those in power, 2) heroin is not nearly as harmful or addictive as claimed, and no worse than other drugs which are legal under CoTA-pushed laws, and 3) everything else I find in the pamphlet, now that I have looked into it, is either self-contradictory or outright bogus.

What then should I conclude about the use of information gained from that booklet? What then should I conclude about its authors, next time they come try to talk to me about their philosophies?

See, when you speak about "God" and "what God wants", you're actually talking about relying upon Holy Books™ which describe those concepts, and those are things we can investigate and learn about. Turns out, when we do investigate the holy books, they are deeply problematic except in the eyes of people who choose to close their eyes to the problems... that's why we have True Believers™ who will, with heartfelt zealous adherence, sit right here on our forum and tell us that:

Jehovah's Witnesses are correct, all the others are wrong.
Judaism is correct, all the others are wrong.
Mormonism is correct, all the others are wrong.
Islam is correct, all the others are wrong.
Christianity is correct, all the others are wrong. ("And the Catholics are not Christian!", some of them say.)

And those are *only* the ones based on that particular book, the Torah, as their source of origin (with local flavorings along the way as the original evolved into its daughter-religions, of course). I could list True Religions™ here for pages!

See, when you speak about "God" and "what God wants", you're actually talking about relying upon Holy Books which describe those concepts, and those are things we can investigate and learn about. Turns out, when we do investigate the holy books, they are deeply problematic except in the eyes of people who choose to close their eyes to the problems... that's why we have True Believers who will, with heartfelt zealous adherence, sit right here on our forum and tell us that:

Jehovah's Witnesses are correct, all the others are wrong.
Judaism is correct, all the others are wrong.
Mormonism is correct, all the others are wrong.
Islam is correct, all the others are wrong.
Christianity is correct, all the others are wrong. ("And the Catholics are not Christian!", some of them say.)


So good! Well said.

Some of us atheists know more about these books, what they do say, and why they were written, than the "true believers" who just accept what they're told.
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25-07-2015, 11:05 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 10:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  We are born as mortals. It means we die physically. It means we are born in fallen state. But we are born sinless. Unless you can list to me at least one sin/evil doing of the new born infant.

(25-07-2015 10:14 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  You're just not getting it. Re-read my scenario carefully.
1. I am born totally unaware of this "debt" which I supposedly owe to Alla.

I think you are not getting it. Nobody is born in debts. New born infant has no sins which means no debt. If he/she dies in 5 min after birth he/she does not deserve hell.
But when you lie or steal you know you do evil. You know you deserve punishment.

Yes we are, because we are born human, imperfect beings. "Sin" by this definition is inevitable, ergo we are born into this debt, even if we're (according to your particular theology) not sinning the moment we're born. And you just wrote at the top, "We are born in fallen state." That's what I'm saying; that is the debt. The particular sins themselves are only the dollar amount of the debt, in your analogy. When I am born, I am unaware of the "sin debt", as I stated.

At some point, someone has to come along and tell me about my "sins" and the "debt" I have incurred, because I was born not knowing it. That someone is JimBob, in my little parable, there.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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