Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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25-07-2015, 11:18 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 11:05 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Yes we are, because we are born human, imperfect beings. "Sin" by this definition is inevitable, ergo we are born into this debt, even if we're (according to your particular theology) not sinning the moment we're born.
To be imperfect(mortal) doesn't mean that you are in debt or a sinner. It is not your fault you are born mortal. That is why in order to become immortal one day you do not need to know about Jesus and what He has done for you. You do not need faith in Him you do not need keep His commandments. You do not have to do anything and you can not do anything to become perfect(meaning having immortal body).
(25-07-2015 11:05 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  At some point, someone has to come along and tell me about my "sins" and the "debt" I have incurred, because I was born not knowing it. That someone is JimBob, in my little parable, there.
When you lie someone has to tell you that you are sinning by doing it. If no one ever told you this, you are not going to be punished for what you do not know. Atonement covers this.

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25-07-2015, 11:18 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 10:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 10:14 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I am more familiar with the teachings of the Bible than you could possibly imagine. Many Christians believe we are born sinful, because of the Fall of Man (Original Sin), while others think we accumulate sin-debt over time after being born pure. Wasn't sure which camp you fell into, so I guessed.
We are born as mortals. It means we die physically. It means we are born in fallen state. But we are born sinless. Unless you can list to me at least one sin/evil doing of the new born infant.
(25-07-2015 10:14 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  You're just not getting it. Re-read my scenario carefully.
1. I am born totally unaware of this "debt" which I supposedly owe to Alla.
I think you are not getting it. Nobody is born in debts. New born infant has no sins which means no debt. If he/she dies in 5 min after birth he/she does not deserve hell.
But when you lie or steal you know you do evil. You know you deserve punishment.

Alla, part of being a good Christian is to recognise that you were born sinful. Read Romans chapter 5
(https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...5&version= )

Here is part of it...

"19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

I, like you, and every other sane person on the planet, know that this is nonsense, as a new-born can't sin. Yet it's an idea promoted by the creator of Christian theology (Paul.)

You sound like a nice person, and you are capable of some genuine humility, and open to new ideas, unlike some other Christians on this forum. Forget sin, debt, punishment, heaven, and hell. It's all bullshit made up by priests so that nice people (like you) give them money.

You'll be much happier if you smile, be good to others, and live in the present. Cool
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25-07-2015, 11:21 PM (This post was last modified: 25-07-2015 11:38 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Mark I think you're being a bit too nice to her. It seems she is deliberately dodging the primary thrust of my argument in order to tell me things that (it should be clear) I already know about religion.

Granted, there are a few elements of Mormon theology I'm still fuzzy on; theirs is one of the only Holy Book Series™ I have not read in its entirety.

There are only so many times you can read the phrase "and it came to pass" before you give up.

(Edited to repair typo.)

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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25-07-2015, 11:26 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 11:18 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 10:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  We are born as mortals. It means we die physically. It means we are born in fallen state. But we are born sinless. Unless you can list to me at least one sin/evil doing of the new born infant.
I think you are not getting it. Nobody is born in debts. New born infant has no sins which means no debt. If he/she dies in 5 min after birth he/she does not deserve hell.
But when you lie or steal you know you do evil. You know you deserve punishment.

Alla, part of being a good Christian is to recognise that you were born sinful. Read Romans chapter 5
(https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?se...5&version= )

Here is part of it...

"19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
It doesn't say "born sinners". Because of Adam we are born mortals(imperfect) that is why we all start to sin one day (accept little children).
(25-07-2015 11:18 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You'll be much happier if you smile, be good to others, and live in the present. Cool
I do my best.Smile

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25-07-2015, 11:32 PM (This post was last modified: 25-07-2015 11:36 PM by Chas.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 10:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  We are born as mortals. It means we die physically. It means we are born in fallen state.

No, it doesn't mean any such thing. That is a fiction, a theological invention. Fallen from what?

And please don't regurgitate that original sin crapola.

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25-07-2015, 11:51 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 10:14 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I am more familiar with the teachings of the Bible than you could possibly imagine. Many Christians believe we are born sinful, because of the Fall of Man (Original Sin), while others think we accumulate sin-debt over time after being born pure. Wasn't sure which camp you fell into, so I guessed.

You're just not getting it. Re-read my scenario carefully.

1. I am born totally unaware of this "debt" which I supposedly owe to Alla.
2. JimBob comes along and tells me, "hey you owe this debt to She Who Owns All Money, Alla, who is really pissed at you for it".
3. JimBob says, "But don't worry, Bill Gates already paid this debt. It's all right here in this book. Bill Gates pays for everyone. See? Says right here. Everyone!"
4. JimBob says, "Since you owed that big debt, and Bill Gates paid it, you now owe Bill your gratitude."
5. JimBob says, "I work for Bill, and Bill wants you to work for me for an hour every Sunday, and give me 10% of your income, and to go tell others about the debt they owe to Bill because of what they used to owe to Alla."
6. JimBob says, "If you don't do all this, Alla is going to come kill you. Oh, and don't listen to SueEllen, or go work for her; she doesn't even know Bill Gates, and doesn't have access to Alla's money, no matter what SueEllen says. Stan or Eric, either. They're all wrong. Only I know Bill Gates and his Book of Debts™."

It's the biggest con-game in history.
1)If you are familiar with the teachings of the Bible then why did you mention only Alla and Bill? Don't you know that there are three of Them?
2)What is the mission of the third One?
And Alla never said that she will kill you if you do not believe JimBob. Alla said that you can not live with Her if you do not believe JimBob. Because you can not become like Her

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25-07-2015, 11:55 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 11:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 10:56 PM)Alla Wrote:  We are born as mortals. It means we die physically. It means we are born in fallen state.
No, it doesn't mean any such thing. That is a fiction, a theological invention.
How do you know what it means?
(25-07-2015 11:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  Fallen from what?
From glory of God. But I will not explain to you now what it means.

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26-07-2015, 12:02 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 11:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  1)If you are familiar with the teachings of the Bible then why did you mention only Alla and Bill? Don't you know that there are three of Them?
2)What is the mission of the third One?
And Alla never said that she will kill you if you do not believe JimBob. Alla said that you can not live with Her if you do not believe JimBob. Because you can not become like Her

Are you trying to sound like a Poe's Law violation?

In what way would the action of "the Holy Spirit" possibly fit into my point? But alright, if it makes you happy, I'll add it in.

1. I am born totally unaware of this "debt" which I supposedly owe to Alla.
2. JimBob comes along and tells me, "hey you owe this debt to She Who Owns All Money, Alla, who is really pissed at you for it".
3. JimBob says, "But don't worry, Bill Gates already paid this debt. It's all right here in this book. Bill Gates pays for everyone. See? Says right here. Everyone!"
4. JimBob says, "Since you owed that big debt, and Bill Gates paid it, you now owe Bill your gratitude."
5. JimBob says, "I work for Bill, and Bill wants you to work for me for an hour every Sunday, and give me 10% of your income, and to go tell others about the debt they owe to Bill because of what they used to owe to Alla."
6. JimBob says, "If you don't do all this, Alla is going to come kill you. Oh, and don't listen to SueEllen, or go work for her; she doesn't even know Bill Gates, and doesn't have access to Alla's money, no matter what SueEllen says. Stan or Eric, either. They're all wrong. Only I know Bill Gates and his Book of Debts."
7. JimBob says, "There's also this invisible ghost who will inhabit your body and help you feel like you're doing good work on my behalf. His name is Boo. He'll show you what to do."
8. "Really, they're all the same person", JimBob says, "Even though one is a ghost-feeling and one is the son of the other, and they do different things, they're really all one person."
9. I punch JimBob in the nose for wasting my time and trying to swindle me.

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26-07-2015, 12:03 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
And yes, as long as Hell is part of Judeo-Christian theology, then it's "kill", in my example.

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26-07-2015, 12:07 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 11:55 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 11:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, it doesn't mean any such thing. That is a fiction, a theological invention.
How do you know what it means?

The phrase "fallen state" is meaningless as it is a fiction - there is no reason to believe it as there is no evidence.

Quote:
(25-07-2015 11:32 PM)Chas Wrote:  Fallen from what?
From glory of God. But I will not explain to you now what it means.

You will not explain it because you don't actually know what it means.

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