Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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26-07-2015, 08:20 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-07-2015 07:50 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Now come back to the 21st-century. Does it not seem odd and rather macabre that some of today’s Christians worship a crucifix? As Jesus was tortured, humiliated and killed on a cross, is it not it in poor taste to eagerly advertise the fact? Facepalm What would Jesus think of that? If he were somehow alive today, would not his stomach turn at the sight of a crucifix? Drinking Beverage

I have actually lost Christian friends because I like to ask them (when drinking or more likely smoking together), "Dude, if Jesus had come during the French Revolution, do you think Christians would wear a razor blade on the chains around their necks, instead of a cross?"

For some reason this REALLY gets people mad! I honestly don't know why; I think it's hilarious! Laugh out load

Jebus no likey that shit. Big Grin

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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26-07-2015, 08:23 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-07-2015 06:23 AM)unfogged Wrote:  You play a strange little game with your "not now" posts. It comes across as smug and arrogant but that's what I have come to expect from most peddlers of woo.

Just read "I don't know, and I'm too lazy to look it up and too lazy to go find a pre-cooked baloney answer."

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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26-07-2015, 08:56 AM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2015 02:55 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-07-2015 07:50 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Now come back to the 21st-century. Does it not seem odd and rather macabre that some of today’s Christians worship a crucifix? As Jesus was tortured, humiliated and killed on a cross, is it not it in poor taste to eagerly advertise the fact? Facepalm What would Jesus think of that? If he were somehow alive today, would not his stomach turn at the sight of a crucifix? Drinking Beverage

I have actually lost Christian friends because I like to ask them (when drinking or more likely smoking together), "Dude, if Jesus had come during the French Revolution, do you think Christians would wear a razor blade on the chains around their necks, instead of a cross?"

For some reason this REALLY gets people mad! I honestly don't know why; I think it's hilarious! Laugh out load

Good one! Or better still make it a little model of a guillotine.

Or imagine if the Romans had been Nazis, Christians would wear a little gas chamber.
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26-07-2015, 09:56 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-07-2015 08:56 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Good one! Or better still make it a little model of a guillotine.

Or if the Romans had been Nazis, they would wear a little gas chamber.

Perhaps a tiny little canister of Zyklon-B?

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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26-07-2015, 01:57 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-07-2015 12:02 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 11:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  1)If you are familiar with the teachings of the Bible then why did you mention only Alla and Bill? Don't you know that there are three of Them?
2)What is the mission of the third One?
And Alla never said that she will kill you if you do not believe JimBob. Alla said that you can not live with Her if you do not believe JimBob. Because you can not become like Her

Are you trying to sound like a Poe's Law violation?

In what way would the action of "the Holy Spirit" possibly fit into my point? But alright, if it makes you happy, I'll add it in.

1. I am born totally unaware of this "debt" which I supposedly owe to Alla.
2. JimBob comes along and tells me, "hey you owe this debt to She Who Owns All Money, Alla, who is really pissed at you for it".
3. JimBob says, "But don't worry, Bill Gates already paid this debt. It's all right here in this book. Bill Gates pays for everyone. See? Says right here. Everyone!"
4. JimBob says, "Since you owed that big debt, and Bill Gates paid it, you now owe Bill your gratitude."
5. JimBob says, "I work for Bill, and Bill wants you to work for me for an hour every Sunday, and give me 10% of your income, and to go tell others about the debt they owe to Bill because of what they used to owe to Alla."
6. JimBob says, "If you don't do all this, Alla is going to come kill you. Oh, and don't listen to SueEllen, or go work for her; she doesn't even know Bill Gates, and doesn't have access to Alla's money, no matter what SueEllen says. Stan or Eric, either. They're all wrong. Only I know Bill Gates and his Book of Debts."
7. JimBob says, "There's also this invisible ghost who will inhabit your body and help you feel like you're doing good work on my behalf. His name is Boo. He'll show you what to do."
8. "Really, they're all the same person", JimBob says, "Even though one is a ghost-feeling and one is the son of the other, and they do different things, they're really all one person."
9. I punch JimBob in the nose for wasting my time and trying to swindle me.
What does it have to do with the topic of the thread?
If you want to know my answer about what to do with JimBob I will give you my answer. Do what ever your heart tells you to do. If it is punching him in the nose. Go ahead and punch him.
The topic is about the Atonement. Is it pointless?
The answer is No. It is not.
And I explained why.
If I break the law I become imperfect person and imperfect person can not be among perfect people. It will be worst than hell for imperfect person to be with/among perfect people.
God is perfect and His justice is perfect. If God just simply forgives me who broke the law His justice won't be perfect. Then God is not perfect any more and then He is not God any more.
Atonement makes a lot of sense if we want to have mercy without robbing justice.
If I pay your debt you have mercy and your creditor has justice.
Oh, and nobody asks/forces you to believe that your debts are paid.

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26-07-2015, 06:15 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(24-07-2015 10:50 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 09:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I know the consensus. Did you read my post at all where I said I think Paul wrote it? Did you read my post where I made a stand for the legitimacy of quoting Hebrews as Pauline.

But here's several hundred OT verses Paul quotes, many/most of them legitimizing Jesus as the Christ:

http://www.freewebs.com/thywordis/PAUL%2...E%20OT.htm

Thanks.

Yes, I saw where you said you think Paul wrote it. It doesn't matter what you think -- the overwhelming majority of Biblical scholars are certain that Paul did not write it. I have a volume of Paul's complete writings. It contains the 7 authentic epistles and the 6 disputed ones, along with numerous other "pseudo-Pauline" writings. It does not contain Hebrews. Like I said yesterday, Hebrews is not even one of the disputed epistles. The experts are certain that it was not written by Paul. So it doesn't count.

Furthermore, you are moving the goal posts. I don't care about Paul "legitimizing Jesus as the Christ". Yes, he does that and does it a lot. That's not what I was questioning. The dispute is very specifically about him using Old Testament prophecies to do so. And I didn't ask for a long list of things that may or may not be relevant. Please give me one specific reference to a passage in one of Paul's 7 authentic epistles, in which he specifically uses an Old Testament prophecy to legitimize Jesus as Christ. The way you've been squirming and evading so far, I'm pretty sure you can't do what I'm asking, so I'm not holding my breath.

OK, I think I actually found a passage that more or less matches Q's description:

Romans 15:8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, so that the promises made to the Patriarchs might be confirmed 9 ... As it is written ... 12 And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; ..." (TNIV translation)

His main point in this passage (not evident from the quotation above, because I deleted those parts) seems to be that all this applies to Gentiles as well as Jews (which is one of Paul's primary messages in general), but he does link Christ to Old Testament prophecies, so I will let Q off the hook on this point, and I offer my apology for any snarkiness related to this dispute.

Let it not be said that I won't admit to being wrong.

Big Grin
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26-07-2015, 07:30 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-07-2015 01:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(26-07-2015 12:02 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Are you trying to sound like a Poe's Law violation?

In what way would the action of "the Holy Spirit" possibly fit into my point? But alright, if it makes you happy, I'll add it in.

1. I am born totally unaware of this "debt" which I supposedly owe to Alla.
2. JimBob comes along and tells me, "hey you owe this debt to She Who Owns All Money, Alla, who is really pissed at you for it".
3. JimBob says, "But don't worry, Bill Gates already paid this debt. It's all right here in this book. Bill Gates pays for everyone. See? Says right here. Everyone!"
4. JimBob says, "Since you owed that big debt, and Bill Gates paid it, you now owe Bill your gratitude."
5. JimBob says, "I work for Bill, and Bill wants you to work for me for an hour every Sunday, and give me 10% of your income, and to go tell others about the debt they owe to Bill because of what they used to owe to Alla."
6. JimBob says, "If you don't do all this, Alla is going to come kill you. Oh, and don't listen to SueEllen, or go work for her; she doesn't even know Bill Gates, and doesn't have access to Alla's money, no matter what SueEllen says. Stan or Eric, either. They're all wrong. Only I know Bill Gates and his Book of Debts."
7. JimBob says, "There's also this invisible ghost who will inhabit your body and help you feel like you're doing good work on my behalf. His name is Boo. He'll show you what to do."
8. "Really, they're all the same person", JimBob says, "Even though one is a ghost-feeling and one is the son of the other, and they do different things, they're really all one person."
9. I punch JimBob in the nose for wasting my time and trying to swindle me.
What does it have to do with the topic of the thread?
If you want to know my answer about what to do with JimBob I will give you my answer. Do what ever your heart tells you to do. If it is punching him in the nose. Go ahead and punch him.
The topic is about the Atonement. Is it pointless?
The answer is No. It is not.
And I explained why.
If I break the law I become imperfect person and imperfect person can not be among perfect people. It will be worst than hell for imperfect person to be with/among perfect people.
God is perfect and His justice is perfect. If God just simply forgives me who broke the law His justice won't be perfect. Then God is not perfect any more and then He is not God any more.
Atonement makes a lot of sense if we want to have mercy without robbing justice.
If I pay your debt you have mercy and your creditor has justice.
Oh, and nobody asks/forces you to believe that your debts are paid.

Alla, scholars agree that Paul invented the curious concept that Christ was crucified to save souls from their sins. Why has this strange idea become part of Christian dogma?

Having the Son of God become human, and free the faithful from the guilt and consequences of their sins, was an attractive story. It meant God was no longer a distant impersonal deity, like the god of the Old Testament, but someone more like them, with whom they could identify. Christ was an ally, a great guy, and everyone’s best friend. Christ would take on your punishment for you, provided you believed in him. If you did that, Paul promised a free pass to salvation. Churches have pushed this unusual plan to such an extent that Christians rarely question it. This is why some Christians insist everyone believe in Jesus: so that sins can be forgiven and entry into heaven assured.

The whole argument is irrational. What evidence is there that a hypothetical god might be interested in punishing or rewarding people? What evidence is there that Paul’s heaven exists? Why would the Son of God need to sacrifice himself to appease his father, who was also himself, for the sins of the world? Is not sacrificing anyone a pointless, barbaric act that kills an innocent scapegoat? Why would faith in this sacrifice be a ticket for entry into heaven?

Amongst theologians, there has never been a sound explanation for these very imaginative ideas, because no sensible, evidence based explanation is possible.
( http://atheistfoundation.org.au/article/...atonement/ http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v= )

Paul’s hypothetical God figure could simply be had to say

“you are genuinely sorry, so I forgive you.”

Yet that was not good enough for Paul, as he had been indoctrinated with Scripture, so he could not imagine a benevolent God. Instead, Paul had God as a rigid demagogue who demanded a sacrifice.
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26-07-2015, 08:11 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-07-2015 01:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(26-07-2015 12:02 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Are you trying to sound like a Poe's Law violation?

In what way would the action of "the Holy Spirit" possibly fit into my point? But alright, if it makes you happy, I'll add it in.

1. I am born totally unaware of this "debt" which I supposedly owe to Alla.
2. JimBob comes along and tells me, "hey you owe this debt to She Who Owns All Money, Alla, who is really pissed at you for it".
3. JimBob says, "But don't worry, Bill Gates already paid this debt. It's all right here in this book. Bill Gates pays for everyone. See? Says right here. Everyone!"
4. JimBob says, "Since you owed that big debt, and Bill Gates paid it, you now owe Bill your gratitude."
5. JimBob says, "I work for Bill, and Bill wants you to work for me for an hour every Sunday, and give me 10% of your income, and to go tell others about the debt they owe to Bill because of what they used to owe to Alla."
6. JimBob says, "If you don't do all this, Alla is going to come kill you. Oh, and don't listen to SueEllen, or go work for her; she doesn't even know Bill Gates, and doesn't have access to Alla's money, no matter what SueEllen says. Stan or Eric, either. They're all wrong. Only I know Bill Gates and his Book of Debts."
7. JimBob says, "There's also this invisible ghost who will inhabit your body and help you feel like you're doing good work on my behalf. His name is Boo. He'll show you what to do."
8. "Really, they're all the same person", JimBob says, "Even though one is a ghost-feeling and one is the son of the other, and they do different things, they're really all one person."
9. I punch JimBob in the nose for wasting my time and trying to swindle me.
What does it have to do with the topic of the thread?
If you want to know my answer about what to do with JimBob I will give you my answer. Do what ever your heart tells you to do. If it is punching him in the nose. Go ahead and punch him.
The topic is about the Atonement. Is it pointless?
The answer is No. It is not.
And I explained why.
If I break the law I become imperfect person and imperfect person can not be among perfect people. It will be worst than hell for imperfect person to be with/among perfect people.
God is perfect and His justice is perfect. If God just simply forgives me who broke the law His justice won't be perfect. Then God is not perfect any more and then He is not God any more.
Atonement makes a lot of sense if we want to have mercy without robbing justice.
If I pay your debt you have mercy and your creditor has justice.
Oh, and nobody asks/forces you to believe that your debts are paid.

Nice story dear, but it needs a dragon and some vampires.
I realize you can spout that shit effortlessly, but it's basically all just pious drivel.
Get lost.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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26-07-2015, 09:05 PM (This post was last modified: 26-07-2015 09:09 PM by Alla.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-07-2015 07:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Alla, scholars agree that Paul invented the curious concept that Christ was crucified to save souls from their sins. Why has this strange idea become part of Christian dogma?
Paul is misunderstood by those scholars the same way as many other prophets are misunderstood.
(26-07-2015 07:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Having the Son of God become human, and free the faithful from the guilt and consequences of their sins, was an attractive story. It meant God was no longer a distant impersonal deity, like the god of the Old Testament, but someone more like them, with whom they could identify. Christ was an ally, a great guy, and everyone’s best friend. Christ would take on your punishment for you, provided you believed in him. If you did that, Paul promised a free pass to salvation.
Paul never taught such thing. He never taught that there is a free pass to salvation.
(26-07-2015 07:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Churches have pushed this unusual plan to such an extent that Christians rarely question it. This is why some Christians insist everyone believe in Jesus: so that sins can be forgiven and entry into heaven assured.
Yes, Paul said that faith in Christ saves. But he also taught what it means to have faith. He never said that to have faith in Christ means only one thing - to say: yes, I believe in Christ, He is my Savior.

(26-07-2015 07:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Why would the Son of God need to sacrifice himself to appease his father, who was also himself, for the sins of the world?
There is no such teaching in the Bible. Paul never taught this.
Why sacrifice? I already tried to explain. Without Atonement of Christ Mercy will rob Justice. And God can not rob justice. If He does He will stop being God.
(26-07-2015 07:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Is not sacrificing anyone a pointless, barbaric act that kills an innocent scapegoat? Why would faith in this sacrifice be a ticket for entry into heaven?
Sacrifice of animal is just a symbol. This symbol has meaning and purpose.
Symbols are teaching us. Why is it a ticket to entry heaven? Symbol(sacrifice of an animal) does not save anybody and actually is not a ticket. But if God wants us to teach something by using symbol and we refuse doing so we rebel against God, we do not want keep His law. We can not enter heaven. Obedience and blood of Christ is the ticket to heaven
(26-07-2015 07:30 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Paul’s hypothetical God figure could simply be had to say
“you are genuinely sorry, so I forgive you.”
Paul never taught this false doctrine. He taught to have faith in Christ. But what does it mean to have faith in Christ? It means to keep God's laws/to be obedient.
To be genially sorry according to Paul is to stop being old man and to become new man even like Christ. Like Christ Who was obedient to His Father and His God. The same way we have to be obedient to Christ. Paul taught this plenty.

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26-07-2015, 09:11 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Why does faith in Christ save us? Because without faith in Christ we will never follow Him. If we never follow Him, we will never become like Him. If we do not become like Him we can not live among Gods.
this is what Paul taught

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