Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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26-07-2015, 10:11 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-07-2015 09:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  ... If we never follow Him, we will never become like Him. If we do not become like Him we cannot live among Gods ...

You say this as if it's a problem. Doesn't sound like a problem to me.

Now, if it's a problem for you that I don't see a problem here, that's your problem. But you, not me, will have to cope with it. I've got enough problems without having to try to solve your problem.

I will suggest, however, that there are groups that can help you resolve your problem, that have developed paths into the clear, so to speak. But they require you to shift your mind's framework over to where you have to use more of your mind than you're used to, and since only you can do that, no one else, these groups can only point you down the path. Only you can take the necessary steps to get clear of your problem.

In the meantime you would do well to not blame others for your problem, or claim that your problem is really their problem. You'll get nowhere that way.
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26-07-2015, 10:39 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You talk about atonement as if it were a fact.
yes
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Yet atonement is just a silly idea
I don't believe you.
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  made up by Paul many years after Jesus died.[/b] Jesus, if he ever existed, would have thought the idea preposterous.
No, not by Paul. Atonement makes sense. I explained why.
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Imagine for a moment that you are Jesus. Sad You are just about to die a very painful degrading death strung up naked on a cross. Hobo You are a dyed in the wool Jew, and you are really pissed off that the Romans are in charge of your country. You're so pissed off you get yourself in trouble with the Romans, which is why you're about to be crucified. Weeping
Imagine some smart ass Roman (Paul) invents a story that you're about to be killed so as to appease Yahweh for the sins of everyone in the Roman world.Gasp Imagine your bewilderment Huh and disgust Drooling at the idea that it was going to be promoted that this was what your impending death was all about. Angry
Paul was teaching true Gospel and Jesus knows it. By the way Paul never taught that Yahweh is Father.
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Now come back to the 21st-century. Does it not seem odd and rather macabre that some of today’s Christians worship a crucifix? As Jesus was tortured, humiliated and killed on a cross, is it not it in poor taste to eagerly advertise the fact? Facepalm
I do not worship crucifix. I do not center my faith in Christ on His death but on His resurrection. By the way Jesus didn't save us on Cross, but in the garden of Gethsemane.
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  What would Jesus think of that? If he were somehow alive today, would not his stomach turn at the sight of a crucifix? Drinking Beverage
He knew they will do this. What would He say if cane from heaven now? He wouldn't judge them but He would teach them the truth.

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26-07-2015, 10:45 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-07-2015 02:11 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(26-07-2015 12:11 AM)Alla Wrote:  what is hell according to the prophets of God?

Alla, you write

"what is hell according to the prophets of God?"

I wanna know who are the "prophets of God?"

Please give me a yes or no on the following individuals...

- Jim Jones
- David Koresh
- Paul of Tarsus
- Mohammed
- Q Continuum
- Joseph Smith
- Benny Hinn
- Girly man
- Saint Augustine
- Martin Luther
- Buffy the vampire slayer

Seems to me anyone can be a prophet. All you need is

- some charisma (Q excepted)
- balls (Buffy excepted)
- arrogance
- the right publisher
- guns or swords
- a mental illness (sorry Girly, everyone knows you're crazy)
- a pen (Mohammed excepted)
- gullible followers (I'd follow Buffy anywhere)
- a neurosis about sex
Joseph Smith is the Prophet of God of Israel.
Every child of God can be called a prophet because every child of God can have personal revelations from Him.
But not every child of God is the Prophet.

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27-07-2015, 02:00 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-07-2015 10:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You talk about atonement as if it were a fact.
yes
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Yet atonement is just a silly idea
I don't believe you.
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  made up by Paul many years after Jesus died.[/b] Jesus, if he ever existed, would have thought the idea preposterous.
No, not by Paul. Atonement makes sense. I explained why.
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Imagine for a moment that you are Jesus. Sad You are just about to die a very painful degrading death strung up naked on a cross. Hobo You are a dyed in the wool Jew, and you are really pissed off that the Romans are in charge of your country. You're so pissed off you get yourself in trouble with the Romans, which is why you're about to be crucified. Weeping
Imagine some smart ass Roman (Paul) invents a story that you're about to be killed so as to appease Yahweh for the sins of everyone in the Roman world.Gasp Imagine your bewilderment Huh and disgust Drooling at the idea that it was going to be promoted that this was what your impending death was all about. Angry
Paul was teaching true Gospel and Jesus knows it. By the way Paul never taught that Yahweh is Father.
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Now come back to the 21st-century. Does it not seem odd and rather macabre that some of today’s Christians worship a crucifix? As Jesus was tortured, humiliated and killed on a cross, is it not it in poor taste to eagerly advertise the fact? Facepalm
I do not worship crucifix. I do not center my faith in Christ on His death but on His resurrection. By the way Jesus didn't save us on Cross, but in the garden of Gethsemane.
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  What would Jesus think of that? If he were somehow alive today, would not his stomach turn at the sight of a crucifix? Drinking Beverage
He knew they will do this. What would He say if cane from heaven now? He wouldn't judge them but He would teach them the truth.

Alla, you claim "By the way Paul never taught that Yahweh is Father. "

How would you explain this...

Romans 8:3 King James Version (KJV)

"3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

and this...

Galatians 4:4English Standard Version (ESV)

"4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,"
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27-07-2015, 02:03 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-07-2015 10:11 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(26-07-2015 09:11 PM)Alla Wrote:  ... If we never follow Him, we will never become like Him. If we do not become like Him we cannot live among Gods ...

You say this as if it's a problem. Doesn't sound like a problem to me.

Now, if it's a problem for you that I don't see a problem here, that's your problem. But you, not me, will have to cope with it. I've got enough problems without having to try to solve your problem.

I will suggest, however, that there are groups that can help you resolve your problem, that have developed paths into the clear, so to speak. But they require you to shift your mind's framework over to where you have to use more of your mind than you're used to, and since only you can do that, no one else, these groups can only point you down the path. Only you can take the necessary steps to get clear of your problem.

In the meantime you would do well to not blame others for your problem, or claim that your problem is really their problem. You'll get nowhere that way.

This is just beautiful!Bowing
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27-07-2015, 02:12 AM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2015 02:58 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-07-2015 10:39 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You talk about atonement as if it were a fact.
yes
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Yet atonement is just a silly idea
I don't believe you.
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  made up by Paul many years after Jesus died.[/b] Jesus, if he ever existed, would have thought the idea preposterous.
No, not by Paul. Atonement makes sense. I explained why.
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Imagine for a moment that you are Jesus. Sad You are just about to die a very painful degrading death strung up naked on a cross. Hobo You are a dyed in the wool Jew, and you are really pissed off that the Romans are in charge of your country. You're so pissed off you get yourself in trouble with the Romans, which is why you're about to be crucified. Weeping
Imagine some smart ass Roman (Paul) invents a story that you're about to be killed so as to appease Yahweh for the sins of everyone in the Roman world.Gasp Imagine your bewilderment Huh and disgust Drooling at the idea that it was going to be promoted that this was what your impending death was all about. Angry
Paul was teaching true Gospel and Jesus knows it. By the way Paul never taught that Yahweh is Father.
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Now come back to the 21st-century. Does it not seem odd and rather macabre that some of today’s Christians worship a crucifix? As Jesus was tortured, humiliated and killed on a cross, is it not it in poor taste to eagerly advertise the fact? Facepalm
I do not worship crucifix. I do not center my faith in Christ on His death but on His resurrection. By the way Jesus didn't save us on Cross, but in the garden of Gethsemane.
(26-07-2015 01:34 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  What would Jesus think of that? If he were somehow alive today, would not his stomach turn at the sight of a crucifix? Drinking Beverage
He knew they will do this. What would He say if cane from heaven now? He wouldn't judge them but He would teach them the truth.

"Paul was teaching true Gospel and Jesus knows it."

No. Jesus, if he ever existed, was a Jew. Paul didn't appear on the scene until at least 15 to 20 years after Jesus' death, and he taught non-Jewish pagan dogma. So Jesus had never heard Paul's spiel, and even if he had, he would've rejected it as heresy.
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27-07-2015, 02:23 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-07-2015 10:45 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(26-07-2015 02:11 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Alla, you write

"what is hell according to the prophets of God?"

I wanna know who are the "prophets of God?"

Please give me a yes or no on the following individuals...

- Jim Jones
- David Koresh
- Paul of Tarsus
- Mohammed
- Q Continuum
- Joseph Smith
- Benny Hinn
- Girly man
- Saint Augustine
- Martin Luther
- Buffy the vampire slayer

Seems to me anyone can be a prophet. All you need is

- some charisma (Q excepted)
- balls (Buffy excepted)
- arrogance
- the right publisher
- guns or swords
- a mental illness (sorry Girly, everyone knows you're crazy)
- a pen (Mohammed excepted)
- gullible followers (I'd follow Buffy anywhere)
- a neurosis about sex
Joseph Smith is the Prophet of God of Israel.
Every child of God can be called a prophet because every child of God can have personal revelations from Him.
But not every child of God is the Prophet.

Oh....you're one of them Facepalm

If you can believe the ancient Israelites moved to America, and that underwear is magic, what chance do any of us have of convincing you of anything logical? You're probably too far gone.
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27-07-2015, 02:49 AM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2015 02:55 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-07-2015 06:15 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 10:50 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Yes, I saw where you said you think Paul wrote it. It doesn't matter what you think -- the overwhelming majority of Biblical scholars are certain that Paul did not write it. I have a volume of Paul's complete writings. It contains the 7 authentic epistles and the 6 disputed ones, along with numerous other "pseudo-Pauline" writings. It does not contain Hebrews. Like I said yesterday, Hebrews is not even one of the disputed epistles. The experts are certain that it was not written by Paul. So it doesn't count.

Furthermore, you are moving the goal posts. I don't care about Paul "legitimizing Jesus as the Christ". Yes, he does that and does it a lot. That's not what I was questioning. The dispute is very specifically about him using Old Testament prophecies to do so. And I didn't ask for a long list of things that may or may not be relevant. Please give me one specific reference to a passage in one of Paul's 7 authentic epistles, in which he specifically uses an Old Testament prophecy to legitimize Jesus as Christ. The way you've been squirming and evading so far, I'm pretty sure you can't do what I'm asking, so I'm not holding my breath.

OK, I think I actually found a passage that more or less matches Q's description:

Romans 15:8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, so that the promises made to the Patriarchs might be confirmed 9 ... As it is written ... 12 And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; ..." (TNIV translation)

His main point in this passage (not evident from the quotation above, because I deleted those parts) seems to be that all this applies to Gentiles as well as Jews (which is one of Paul's primary messages in general), but he does link Christ to Old Testament prophecies, so I will let Q off the hook on this point, and I offer my apology for any snarkiness related to this dispute.

Let it not be said that I won't admit to being wrong.

Big Grin

Well, there is no doubt Paul claimed his Christ fulfilled OT "prophecies."

Whether there were such "prophecies" in the OT (what do you think Bucky?) and whether Paul's Christ fitted the bill ( hardly) are two other issues.

Here is the relevant section from Romans...

8 For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, 9 and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written,

“Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles,
and sing to your name.”
10 And again it is said,

“Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.”
11 And again,

“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
and let all the peoples extol him.”
12 And again Isaiah says,

“The root of Jesse will come,
even he who arises to rule the Gentiles;
in him will the Gentiles hope.”
13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope
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27-07-2015, 06:40 AM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2015 09:14 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-07-2015 10:45 PM)Alla Wrote:  Joseph Smith is the Prophet of God of Israel.
Every child of God can be called a prophet because every child of God can have personal revelations from Him.
But not every child of God is the Prophet.

Is that a trick question from the SAT exam ? Hobo

Joseph Smith was a lying, philandering, womanizing, cheating, uneducated charlatan and snake-oil salesman who wanted to screw (yes as in have sex) his wife's friends, so he cooked up a new religion, put his lies in the center of it, and found enough totally stupid gullible people to buy his boatload of crap.

"Oh. I found some gold-plated tablets from the Angel Moroni out it the backyard, dear".
"Sure you did dear. Have another sip of brandy".




Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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27-07-2015, 06:50 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-07-2015 01:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  Atonement makes a lot of sense if we want to have mercy without robbing justice.
If I pay your debt you have mercy and your creditor has justice.

Atonement is a completely evil concept.

You choosing to pay somebody else's debt is unfair to you so justice is not being served even in your example but that's not what is being discussed. Atonement as described in the bible requires an innocent victim be killed so that the blood can atone for the guilty. That is a very primitive concept that has no place in any moral system. You should be deeply ashamed of supporting such a pointless, barbaric practice.

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