Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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27-07-2015, 06:59 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-07-2015 06:40 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(26-07-2015 10:45 PM)Alla Wrote:  Joseph Smith is the Prophet of God of Israel.
Every child of God can be called a prophet because every child of God can have personal revelations from Him.
But not every child of God is the Prophet.

Is that a trick question from the SAT exam ? Hobo

Joseph Smith was a lying, philandering, womanizing, cheating, uneducated charlatan and snake-oil salesman who wanted to screw (yes as in have sex) his wife's friends, so he cooked up a new religion, put his lies in the center of it, and found enough totally stupid gullible people to buy his boatload of crap.




Joseph Smith invented pulling stories out of a hat. In ancient times, they just pulled it out of their ass, so there is that.

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Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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27-07-2015, 07:33 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-07-2015 02:49 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(26-07-2015 06:15 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  OK, I think I actually found a passage that more or less matches Q's description:

Romans 15:8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, so that the promises made to the Patriarchs might be confirmed 9 ... As it is written ... 12 And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; ..." (TNIV translation)

His main point in this passage (not evident from the quotation above, because I deleted those parts) seems to be that all this applies to Gentiles as well as Jews (which is one of Paul's primary messages in general), but he does link Christ to Old Testament prophecies, so I will let Q off the hook on this point, and I offer my apology for any snarkiness related to this dispute.

Let it not be said that I won't admit to being wrong.

Big Grin

Well, there is no doubt Paul claimed his Christ fulfilled OT "prophecies."

Whether there were such "prophecies" in the OT (what do you think Bucky?) and whether Paul's Christ fitted the bill ( hardly) are two other issues.

Here is the relevant section from Romans...

8 For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, 9 and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written,

“Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles,
and sing to your name.”
10 And again it is said,

“Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.”
11 And again,

“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
and let all the peoples extol him.”
12 And again Isaiah says,

“The root of Jesse will come,
even he who arises to rule the Gentiles;
in him will the Gentiles hope.”
13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope

Oh yes, I still agree with you and Bucky that: (1) Old Testament prophecies aren't worth a hill of beans, and (2) None of them have anything to do with Jesus anyway. Haven't changed my mind on that at all. But I had denied that Paul used OT prophecies in his preaching, and I have to admit to being in error on that point.
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27-07-2015, 02:59 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-07-2015 07:33 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 02:49 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Well, there is no doubt Paul claimed his Christ fulfilled OT "prophecies."

Whether there were such "prophecies" in the OT (what do you think Bucky?) and whether Paul's Christ fitted the bill ( hardly) are two other issues.

Here is the relevant section from Romans...

8 For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, 9 and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written,

“Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles,
and sing to your name.”
10 And again it is said,

“Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.”
11 And again,

“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
and let all the peoples extol him.”
12 And again Isaiah says,

“The root of Jesse will come,
even he who arises to rule the Gentiles;
in him will the Gentiles hope.”
13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope

Oh yes, I still agree with you and Bucky that: (1) Old Testament prophecies aren't worth a hill of beans, and (2) None of them have anything to do with Jesus anyway. Haven't changed my mind on that at all. But I had denied that Paul used OT prophecies in his preaching, and I have to admit to being in error on that point.

ok, I understand now.
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27-07-2015, 03:12 PM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2015 03:26 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(26-07-2015 01:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(26-07-2015 12:02 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Are you trying to sound like a Poe's Law violation?

In what way would the action of "the Holy Spirit" possibly fit into my point? But alright, if it makes you happy, I'll add it in.

1. I am born totally unaware of this "debt" which I supposedly owe to Alla.
2. JimBob comes along and tells me, "hey you owe this debt to She Who Owns All Money, Alla, who is really pissed at you for it".
3. JimBob says, "But don't worry, Bill Gates already paid this debt. It's all right here in this book. Bill Gates pays for everyone. See? Says right here. Everyone!"
4. JimBob says, "Since you owed that big debt, and Bill Gates paid it, you now owe Bill your gratitude."
5. JimBob says, "I work for Bill, and Bill wants you to work for me for an hour every Sunday, and give me 10% of your income, and to go tell others about the debt they owe to Bill because of what they used to owe to Alla."
6. JimBob says, "If you don't do all this, Alla is going to come kill you. Oh, and don't listen to SueEllen, or go work for her; she doesn't even know Bill Gates, and doesn't have access to Alla's money, no matter what SueEllen says. Stan or Eric, either. They're all wrong. Only I know Bill Gates and his Book of Debts."
7. JimBob says, "There's also this invisible ghost who will inhabit your body and help you feel like you're doing good work on my behalf. His name is Boo. He'll show you what to do."
8. "Really, they're all the same person", JimBob says, "Even though one is a ghost-feeling and one is the son of the other, and they do different things, they're really all one person."
9. I punch JimBob in the nose for wasting my time and trying to swindle me.
What does it have to do with the topic of the thread?
If you want to know my answer about what to do with JimBob I will give you my answer. Do what ever your heart tells you to do. If it is punching him in the nose. Go ahead and punch him.
The topic is about the Atonement. Is it pointless?
The answer is No. It is not.
And I explained why.
If I break the law I become imperfect person and imperfect person can not be among perfect people. It will be worst than hell for imperfect person to be with/among perfect people.
God is perfect and His justice is perfect. If God just simply forgives me who broke the law His justice won't be perfect. Then God is not perfect any more and then He is not God any more.
Atonement makes a lot of sense if we want to have mercy without robbing justice.
If I pay your debt you have mercy and your creditor has justice.
Oh, and nobody asks/forces you to believe that your debts are paid.

"If I break the law I become imperfect person and imperfect person can not be among perfect people. It will be worst than hell for imperfect person to be with/among perfect people."

Says who? Where did you get this idea from? Is that what they teach you? I'll share the following with you, as it addresses the very essence of what you have just written (although I doubt you'll agree.)

Aristotle may have said

“Men create gods after their own image, not only with regard to their form but also with regard to their mode of life.”
(Aristotle 384 BC – 322 BC.)

There is no evidence that the God of Scripture exists, and the burden of proof lies with those who claim he does.

It can be argued that “God” is nothing more than a fabricated figure that has always been all about power. One of man’s main ambitions is to be powerful, to rule over others. “God” was, and is, nothing more than a sock puppet for priests or other religious raconteurs. The “God” concept was originally used for the benefit of the Jewish clerical caste; to give priests prestige, power and wealth.

These priests had Munchausen syndrome by proxy (MSbP.) ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Münchausen...e_by_proxy ) The priests talked about a “God,” who they pretended was an all-powerful entity. This God exaggerated or fabricated problems, such as sins; thoughts or actions, that supposedly upset him. This “God” could then “save” the sinner from his own disapproval, that is from a problem that was not real.

Priests created a role for themselves by claiming they talked on this God’s behalf. The priests thereby made themselves, and those associated with them, appear to be very important.

In later times the Roman government and the Christian priesthood promoted God’s existence for the same reasons – to control and profit from a gullible public. “God” helped keep commoners bowing to priests and kings, the peasants paying their tithes and taxes, slaves in shackles, women submissive to men, and wayward adolescents obeying their parents.

Things are much the same today, as Christian leaders in governments, armies, churches, schools, and families are still using “God” to control others. Consider dying for one’s country, Sunday school, sermons from the pulpit, the confessional box, “gay rehabilitation” centers, and the pressure put on people to fork up money every Sunday.

If enough people woke up to the fact that “God” is nothing more than an invention used by raconteurs to profit from people, the Christian, and the Mormon, juggernaut would grind to a halt.
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27-07-2015, 03:31 PM (This post was last modified: 27-07-2015 03:38 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-07-2015 07:33 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 02:49 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Well, there is no doubt Paul claimed his Christ fulfilled OT "prophecies."

Whether there were such "prophecies" in the OT (what do you think Bucky?) and whether Paul's Christ fitted the bill ( hardly) are two other issues.

Here is the relevant section from Romans...

8 For I tell you that Christ became a servant to the circumcised to show God's truthfulness, in order to confirm the promises given to the patriarchs, 9 and in order that the Gentiles might glorify God for his mercy. As it is written,

“Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles,
and sing to your name.”
10 And again it is said,

“Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people.”
11 And again,

“Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles,
and let all the peoples extol him.”
12 And again Isaiah says,

“The root of Jesse will come,
even he who arises to rule the Gentiles;
in him will the Gentiles hope.”
13 May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that by the power of the Holy Spirit you may abound in hope

Oh yes, I still agree with you and Bucky that: (1) Old Testament prophecies aren't worth a hill of beans, and (2) None of them have anything to do with Jesus anyway. Haven't changed my mind on that at all. But I had denied that Paul used OT prophecies in his preaching, and I have to admit to being in error on that point.

It's worth a brief discussion.

Today’s Jewish scholars are adamant that Paul’s “good news” is not to be found in their Scriptures.

Moreover, Paul often changed the meaning of Scripture to suit himself. For example, Paul wrote,

“... so that all beings in the heavens, on earth and in the underworld, should bend the knee at the name of Jesus and that every tongue should acclaim Jesus Christ as Lord to the glory of the Father” (Phil. 2:10–11, NJB.)

The actual Old Testament source that Paul borrowed heavily from was

“Before me every knee shall bend, by me every tongue shall swear, saying ‘From Yahweh alone come victory and strength.’” (Isa. 45:23–24, NJB.)

Paul merely replaced Yahweh with Christ, to fit with his own manufactured theology.

One of Paul’s main themes differentiating his theology from that of the Jews was that Gentiles could be God’s special people too. Paul wrote,

“Well, we are those people; whether we were Jews or pagans we are the ones he has called. That is exactly what God says in Hosea: ‘I shall say to a people that was not mine, ‘you are my people,’ and to a nation I never loved ‘I love you’” (Rom. 9:24, NJB.)

However a reading of chapters one and two of Hosea reveals that “God” was not referring to Gentiles, but Jews whom he was accepting back under his wing after a misdemeanor. Paul changed the meaning of Scripture to sell his own story to Gentiles living in Rome.
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27-07-2015, 06:40 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-07-2015 02:00 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Alla, you claim "By the way Paul never taught that Yahweh is Father. "
How would you explain this...
Romans 8:3 King James Version (KJV)
"3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"
and this...
Galatians 4:4English Standard Version (ESV)
"4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,"
Mark, where in these verses does Paul say that Yahweh is Father?

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27-07-2015, 06:47 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-07-2015 02:12 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "Paul was teaching true Gospel and Jesus knows it."

No. Jesus, if he ever existed, was a Jew. Paul didn't appear on the scene until at least 15 to 20 years after Jesus' death, and he taught non-Jewish pagan dogma. So Jesus had never heard Paul's spiel, and even if he had, he would've rejected it as heresy.
Jesus is God Son. He lives. He was giving revelations and authority to Paul.
Paul was teaching Church what God Son Yahweh( Jesus Christ) was teaching him.
Paul was teaching true Gospel of Jesus Christ. But many do not understand this teaching. Paul did not teach what scholars think and say he taught. They do not understand it correctly.

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27-07-2015, 06:51 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-07-2015 02:23 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Oh....you're one of them :facepalm:
If you can believe the ancient Israelites moved to America,
Why can't I? Is it so hard to believe that in ancient times people traveled from Euro-Asia to Americas?
(27-07-2015 02:23 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  and that underwear is magic, what chance do any of us have of convincing you of anything logical? You're probably too far gone.
I do not believe that underwear are magic. Somebody else says LDS believe this.

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27-07-2015, 10:45 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-07-2015 06:40 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 02:00 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Alla, you claim "By the way Paul never taught that Yahweh is Father. "
How would you explain this...
Romans 8:3 King James Version (KJV)
"3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"
and this...
Galatians 4:4English Standard Version (ESV)
"4 But when the fullness of time had come, God sent forth his Son, born of woman, born under the law,"
Mark, where in these verses does Paul say that Yahweh is Father?

Paul thought "God" was Yahweh.

Who do you think Paul thought Yahweh was?
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27-07-2015, 10:49 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-07-2015 06:47 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 02:12 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "Paul was teaching true Gospel and Jesus knows it."

No. Jesus, if he ever existed, was a Jew. Paul didn't appear on the scene until at least 15 to 20 years after Jesus' death, and he taught non-Jewish pagan dogma. So Jesus had never heard Paul's spiel, and even if he had, he would've rejected it as heresy.
Jesus is God Son. He lives. He was giving revelations and authority to Paul.
Paul was teaching Church what God Son Yahweh( Jesus Christ) was teaching him.
Paul was teaching true Gospel of Jesus Christ. But many do not understand this teaching. Paul did not teach what scholars think and say he taught. They do not understand it correctly.

No.
You are just repeating what you have heard in church.
Your "elders" know nothing of the real history, and neither do you.
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