Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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27-07-2015, 10:52 PM (This post was last modified: 28-07-2015 03:09 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-07-2015 06:51 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 02:23 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Oh....you're one of them Facepalm
If you can believe the ancient Israelites moved to America,
Why can't I? Is it so hard to believe that in ancient times people traveled from Euro-Asia to Americas?
(27-07-2015 02:23 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  and that underwear is magic, what chance do any of us have of convincing you of anything logical? You're probably too far gone.
I do not believe that underwear are magic. Somebody else says LDS believe this.

Why can't I? Is it so hard to believe that in ancient times people traveled from Euro-Asia to Americas?

Let me introduce what may be a novel concept to you. Thinking people believe things primarily because they have evidence, not because of what they are told. Your problem is that there is no evidence that the ancient Israelites moved to America...it is only what you have been told.
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27-07-2015, 10:57 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-07-2015 10:52 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Let me introduce what may be a novel concept to you. Thinking people believe things primarily because they had evidence, not because of what they are told. Your problem is that there is no evidence that the ancient Israelites moved to America.
I agree that thinking people believe things because they had evidence. But thinking people also can believe those whom they trust.

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27-07-2015, 10:59 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-07-2015 10:45 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 06:40 PM)Alla Wrote:  Mark, where in these verses does Paul say that Yahweh is Father?

Paul thought "God" was Yahweh.

Who do you think Paul thought Yahweh was?
Paul knew that Yahweh is God Son Who is Jesus Christ, Who is Creator of earth and heaven.

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27-07-2015, 11:03 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-07-2015 10:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 10:52 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Let me introduce what may be a novel concept to you. Thinking people believe things primarily because they had evidence, not because of what they are told. Your problem is that there is no evidence that the ancient Israelites moved to America.
I agree that thinking people believe things because they had evidence. But thinking people also can believe those whom they trust.

Trusting someone does not magically make a false belief accurate. There is no evidence for the hypothesis that the ancient Israelites moved to America and thus holding that view is irrational and can not be supported no matter how gullible you are towards what you are told by people you trust.

The fact that you trust them does not make them any less wrong.

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27-07-2015, 11:04 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-07-2015 10:59 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 10:45 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Paul thought "God" was Yahweh.

Who do you think Paul thought Yahweh was?
Paul knew that Yahweh is God Son Who is Jesus Christ, Who is Creator of earth and heaven.

He claimed to know that and then provided exactly zero testable, demonstrable, or rational evidence making his claim to knowledge false. Knowledge is demonstrable which is how we tell it from delusion or fraud.

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28-07-2015, 04:32 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-07-2015 10:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 10:52 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Let me introduce what may be a novel concept to you. Thinking people believe things primarily because they had evidence, not because of what they are told. Your problem is that there is no evidence that the ancient Israelites moved to America.
I agree that thinking people believe things because they had evidence. But thinking people also can believe those whom they trust.

Gullible people trust idiots in power who take their money.
They are not thinking people.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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28-07-2015, 05:10 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-07-2015 10:57 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 10:52 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Let me introduce what may be a novel concept to you. Thinking people believe things primarily because they had evidence, not because of what they are told. Your problem is that there is no evidence that the ancient Israelites moved to America.
I agree that thinking people believe things because they had evidence. But thinking people also can believe those whom they trust.

Are you aware that people lie? More specifically, Joseph Smith was a pathological liar.

There's a reason why he was shot dead.

And there's a reason why the religious fanatics that followed him have no problems lying to people.

If you ever want to have righteous anger about being lied to, you would be justified in this case.Thumbsup

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

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28-07-2015, 01:07 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(24-07-2015 10:42 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(24-07-2015 09:58 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. Scholars KNOW he couldn't have written Hebrews implies any number of things including they KNOW who wrote it. An overstatement there.

Don't be ridiculous. Of course it doesn't imply they know who wrote it. If the style and vocabulary and interests promoted are different in one book than another, one can confidently say someone didn't write both. They don't have to know or say who who did, to say someone didn't. Nice try though.

(24-07-2015 09:58 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  2. The TODAY you are my Son refers to prophecies including Psalms referring to RESURRECTION today; TODAY I have begotten you FROM THE DEAD. Oy vey, BB!

Irrelevant. It STILL implies a start date. You missed the point .... on purpose.

(24-07-2015 09:58 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  3. Jesus is ALREADY at the right hand of the Father. The throne at the right hand of the King in the ANE is for the 2IC of the Kingdom, the most honored one. Jesus is there (as consistent with every other statement in the Bible of Jesus's location now) until Jesus's enemies are beneath His feet in judgment. Saying "the second person of the trinity isn't because He's already sitting in the second person's chair" is an almost insufferable mistake. However, you're not a born again Christian so you are spiritually blind and I can forgive your error.

I knew you were going to pull this "hermeutics" shit. It says what it says. There are no "Bible 101" principles, except for childish Fundies.

Jebus is Lard, SexuallyPleasingJebusTrollJoke. Tongue
You thought you'd fool me.
Ha.
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How is it "hermeneutics crap" to point out your absurdity in saying that Jesus isn't an ultimate leader because His throne is only adjacent to God's throne? Again, my pointing out you are unable (because of your will) to read the Bible AND understand it isn't my problem--though I am trying to help you!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-07-2015, 01:09 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(25-07-2015 10:56 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(25-07-2015 08:19 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  The problem with that argument, Alla, is that all those things you speak of are "morals" we can discover by other means, and are intrinsic to human nature as a social animal. I recommend, if you are not yet familiar with them, that you look at the Secular Humanist declarations of atheistic values and morals:

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php/1169

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php/11

(These do not say that they are principles one must adopt in order to be an atheist, they are "atheistic" in the sense that they require no god, and godless people may embrace them as a moral philosophy, as I do.)

It is perfectly acceptable to have a religion that says, "If you wish to become more like God, and lead a happier life as a result, do the following things." (That is, of course, assuming you do not worship a God that is immoral by human standards, and wishes His devotees to do horrible things, which we often see in religion--particularly in the Judeo-Christian and Muslim faith traditions, and therefore we tend to oppose, as rationalists in the post-Enlightenment era.)

But when you say, "I give you knowledge", you're talking about instilling it directly into my mind, clear and unequivocal.

What if, instead, you simply handed me a book--one that was demonstratably full of pseudo- and anti-scientific nonsense and clear bigotry--which said something like "Heroin is a Chinese attempt to take over America, as well as an addictive drug, so if you want to be a good American, you should avoid it. Oh and if you don't, then the Council of True Americans will come kill you one day."

Even though the book contains one piece of true information, that heroin is an addictive drug, I'm likely to throw the whole thing in the trash bin because it is transparently not a good source of information. Or, if the Council of True Americans' philosophy becomes widespread enough, I might look more closely into it. When doing so, I find that 1) The Chinese do not seem to be doing anything to us except existing as economic rivals who look different than us, and (indeed there's a real history of racist rhetoric in the Drug War in America, not only in this example), but they are being scapegoated yet again as a way to "wag the dog" for those in power, 2) heroin is not nearly as harmful or addictive as claimed, and no worse than other drugs which are legal under CoTA-pushed laws, and 3) everything else I find in the pamphlet, now that I have looked into it, is either self-contradictory or outright bogus.

What then should I conclude about the use of information gained from that booklet? What then should I conclude about its authors, next time they come try to talk to me about their philosophies?

See, when you speak about "God" and "what God wants", you're actually talking about relying upon Holy Books™ which describe those concepts, and those are things we can investigate and learn about. Turns out, when we do investigate the holy books, they are deeply problematic except in the eyes of people who choose to close their eyes to the problems... that's why we have True Believers™ who will, with heartfelt zealous adherence, sit right here on our forum and tell us that:

Jehovah's Witnesses are correct, all the others are wrong.
Judaism is correct, all the others are wrong.
Mormonism is correct, all the others are wrong.
Islam is correct, all the others are wrong.
Christianity is correct, all the others are wrong. ("And the Catholics are not Christian!", some of them say.)

And those are *only* the ones based on that particular book, the Torah, as their source of origin (with local flavorings along the way as the original evolved into its daughter-religions, of course). I could list True Religions™ here for pages!

See, when you speak about "God" and "what God wants", you're actually talking about relying upon Holy Books which describe those concepts, and those are things we can investigate and learn about. Turns out, when we do investigate the holy books, they are deeply problematic except in the eyes of people who choose to close their eyes to the problems... that's why we have True Believers who will, with heartfelt zealous adherence, sit right here on our forum and tell us that:

Jehovah's Witnesses are correct, all the others are wrong.
Judaism is correct, all the others are wrong.
Mormonism is correct, all the others are wrong.
Islam is correct, all the others are wrong.
Christianity is correct, all the others are wrong. ("And the Catholics are not Christian!", some of them say.)


So good! Well said.

Some of us atheists know more about these books, what they do say, and why they were written, than the "true believers" who just accept what they're told.

Good point--Christians are welcomed to come here and listen to "@#@$ YOU!Atheists are correct, all the others are wrong."

Much better!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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28-07-2015, 01:11 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(27-07-2015 11:04 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(27-07-2015 10:59 PM)Alla Wrote:  Paul knew that Yahweh is God Son Who is Jesus Christ, Who is Creator of earth and heaven.

He claimed to know that and then provided exactly zero testable, demonstrable, or rational evidence making his claim to knowledge false. Knowledge is demonstrable which is how we tell it from delusion or fraud.

How very Western of you! Paul presented evidence in the form of fulfilled Tanakh prophecy. You are judging Jewish methods of approaching and interpreting the Word of God by using scientism. How very un-Jewish.

Then again, in Paul's day, Paul saying Jesus had risen from the dead could have been investigated and found wanting. Of course, it wasn't and Christianity exploded--getting bigger and bigger until--it--almost--reached--the members of TTA.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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