Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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31-07-2015, 01:26 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(30-07-2015 11:53 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(30-07-2015 10:14 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  "Only assaults like those you are making that out of context, sound unlike modern "wisdom", but which in context, show the folly of rejecting God and the wisdom of trusting God!...Pick one or two of your assaults only if you want to discuss them...."


I've asked multiple times for you to debate me rather than bomb me with ideas, concept and syllogisms. I don't have time to falsify 18 ideas every time you post, therefore I (am continuing to) ignore post 566.

"I've asked multiple times for you to debate me..."

Let's go to the boxing ring. You pick the topic.

That's a good idea, Mark. I choose the following debate resolution:

Absolute truth exists.

Of course, being a Christian who holds to the reality of absolute morals, absolute laws and absolute truth, I will of necessity take the affirmative side. You may have the negative side.

Of course... by assuming the negative side to begin, by attempting to disprove my chosen resolution is a true statement, you have actually proven that truth exists (otherwise you cannot say that anything including this resolution is false and still make it a meaningful debate--we have to assume that truths and falsehoods exist to even have this debate). We have to assume there are rights and wrongs and debate sides. Therefore truth exists.

Of course, you are entitled during our debate to demonstrate that my resolution is relatively true and therefore not absolutely true. However, demonstrating an exception also demonstrates that if a statement is not absolutely true and has an exception, that the exception itself is absolutely true. Therefore truth exists.

Of course, Mark, you can also argue that truth is relative, the way many atheists argue for relativist truths. I must admit herein I pondered this very concern only yesterday... I will then immediately question whether you are relatively sure of your statement or whether you are absolutely sure of your statement. If you are relatively sure that truth is merely relative you have opened the door that absolute truth exists as well as created a contradiction. I will then ask you if the law of noncontradiction is a valid law, you will assert this absolute truth (of necessity) and thus our debate will end. If, however, you are absolutely sure that all truth is relative, you have demonstrated your commitment to an absolute truth which exists. If you are unsure in any degree, in fact, then truth must be absolute. Therefore truth exists.

So, you need not attend the debate with me after all. I've already won. Thanks for letting me choose the topic.

PS. Since absolute truths exist, perhaps we can discuss who authored them, because they did not arrive by natural, evolving processes. Discussing this prospect is more appealing than a debate to me, at least now that our big debate has finally ended.

I'm glad that's over. Debate prep can be rather tiring.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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31-07-2015, 01:29 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Or, come to think of it, perhaps we should debate that great atheist concern:

Free will exists.

As you are well aware, I would be taking the affirmative side in this debate. And like a great many atheists who wish to be fatalistic regarding sin, god and salvation, you will argue that free will is an illusion.

However, the very moment you enter the boxing ring, I will point out that you chose to exercise your free will to join the debate, and the debate will thus end.

If on the other hand, you don't show up to the boxing ring and remain sentient/alive/without grievous injury, I will say you chose of your own free will not to join our debate, and the debate will thus end.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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31-07-2015, 01:33 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Nah, let's do this resolution instead:

All persons, including atheists, are morally accountable.

I will obviously argue the affirmative--I'm a born again fundamentalist troll, for goodness's sake! You will take the negative.

And the first thing I will post in the boxing ring is this:

"Welcome, Mark. Clearly you have entered the boxing ring to teach me where I am wrong and where you are right, and have done so because you are seeking to hold me morally accountable to teach the truth and not press lies or my own self-deceptions on others."

And that will also be a brief, if exciting, debate.

Mark, I do like you--you are smart, funny and I think, pretty straight up--you don't take any guff. So let's not debate. Let's discuss. What do you say?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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31-07-2015, 01:53 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
PPS. I don't always win debates. Just ask my wife.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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31-07-2015, 04:52 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(31-07-2015 01:33 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Nah, let's do this resolution instead:

All persons, including atheists, are morally accountable.

I will obviously argue the affirmative--I'm a born again fundamentalist troll, for goodness's sake! You will take the negative.

And the first thing I will post in the boxing ring is this:

"Welcome, Mark. Clearly you have entered the boxing ring to teach me where I am wrong and where you are right, and have done so because you are seeking to hold me morally accountable to teach the truth and not press lies or my own self-deceptions on others."

And that will also be a brief, if exciting, debate.

Mark, I do like you--you are smart, funny and I think, pretty straight up--you don't take any guff. So let's not debate. Let's discuss. What do you say?

Q, you have just revealed that you have some serious issues.

I think what you have just posted speaks for itself about your mental state. I actually feel a little sorry for you.
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31-07-2015, 04:58 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(31-07-2015 04:52 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Q, you have just revealed that you have some serious issues.

I think what you have just posted speaks for itself about your mental state. I actually feel a little sorry for you.

Overcompensation trying to mask a deep-seated inferiority complex with arrogance and insufferable ingratiation. But you're the headshrinker not me.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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31-07-2015, 05:48 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(31-07-2015 04:58 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 04:52 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Q, you have just revealed that you have some serious issues.

I think what you have just posted speaks for itself about your mental state. I actually feel a little sorry for you.

Overcompensation trying to mask a deep-seated inferiority complex with arrogance and insufferable ingratiation. But you're the headshrinker not me.

Agreed. I'm not sure I want to argue with him any more...or even make fun of his ideas or person...it just doesn't seem right.
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31-07-2015, 07:03 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
Responding to Q's response ---

Part 1: What are the deleterious consequences of rejecting a god?

(30-07-2015 10:19 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  1. Loneliness in trials—everyone has trials and tribulations, we can have them with God or on our own.

2. Hell

3. Those two alone alarm me!

I'll address them is reverse numerical order:

Only two are significant enough (alarming) to name. I assume any other consequences of rejecting a god are therefore inconsequential, at least not worth bringing up in answer to a query that specifically asked for them.

That there only two that seem to matter is interesting in itself; usually when I hear or read that rejecting a god is folly the implication seems to be that the entirety of life is imperiled. A trifling two consequences seems something pretty easy to deal with, or dispense with, and not enough to dominate the daily navigation of life's innumerable slings and arrows.

So one of these consequences is hell - and I assume the hell being considered here is the hell that awaits the insufficiently prepared human soul after death, not the usual hell we call life on earth, which can be hellish beyond imagining in some cases we all hope never to get caught in. Belief in a god has not saved many hundreds of millions from agonizing stretches of all too real hellish actual existence, in the grip of prolonged ill health or deformity, in the grip of psychologically devastating cultural milieus, at the receiving end of some sadistic agent's rod or spear or bomb, etc. Personally, I look at avoiding these real kinds of hell as something worth paying real attention to, and looking to a god of some kind to assist that avoidance as the highest folly possible, since godly assistance cannot be depended on. The world's pile of disappointed corpses is too high to think dependence on a god to forestall personal harm should be seriously considered.

But we're not talking the hell of life, we're talking the hell after life as something to worry about. I can't fathom here in the 21st century with everything we have learned about nature and with it also achieved high world literacy rates to disseminate that learning that educated, intelligent minds can give any serious credence to the ignorant, antique absurdity of the religious concept of hell. Nothing about it makes the slightest sense whatsoever; it's such an obvious fiction that I can only see it being taken seriously by only the least educated and most feeble of minds. When an clearly intelligent mind takes it seriously I can only gape, speechless; what does one say to a mind that in all other contexts won't tolerate that kind of senselessness but in this one tiny crevasse of human fear makes it not just a home but a palace that dominates all deportment.

I'm not convinced believers actually believe such a thing as that hell exists anyway. Facing something awful as that concept would be paralyzing - you'd never get out of bed, terrified that you'll make some error that'll pitch you into the abyss because you couldn't possibly know, with absolute certainty, that you hadn't screwed up in some way you didn't realize.

But, again, to me the high folly is thinking that imaginary hell is something to be feared, and the real hells that fling us face first into the mud are to be less feared, and that some god would actually stretch out a hand to push us clear of the brink.

I will address the first of Q's consequences, the loneliness without a god, in a post to follow, so as to prevent TL;DR (although it may be too late, looking back at my dense thickets of paragraphs, but there they are).
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31-07-2015, 07:20 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(31-07-2015 04:58 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 04:52 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Q, you have just revealed that you have some serious issues.

I think what you have just posted speaks for itself about your mental state. I actually feel a little sorry for you.

Overcompensation trying to mask a deep-seated inferiority complex with arrogance and insufferable ingratiation. But you're the headshrinker not me.

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Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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31-07-2015, 07:40 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(31-07-2015 01:05 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(30-07-2015 03:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  And your understanding of mathematics is worse.

Your understanding of infinity is incorrect. An infinite extent means that one can go back any arbitrary finite amount, without bound. Your phrase "cannot go back to an infinite past amount of days" is mathematically meaningless.

Please allow me to restate. You propose an infinite line in one direction, the past only. Today is today, tomorrow is the future. Today is the last day of all history. An infinite line would go in both directions, past and future. One can go back without bound but on the return trip, one finds a terminus here in July 2015 CE.

It is therefore not an infinite line

Wrong. Utterly, completely wrong. The negative integers form an infinite set - they terminate in one direction at -1 but the extent is infinite.

As I said, your understanding is a meaningless jumble of incorrect interpretations.

Quote:and therefore the past lines of time cannot be infinite as the timeline would need to expand to all possibility in BOTH directions to be truly infinite.

Nope, see above.

Quote:There are a finite number of days that STOP now at today (where we are both located, I hope!). Do not mistake an abstract infinite series with a concrete one. Our timeline is half-infinite at present, at best!

Please provide evidence that time does not extend infinitely into the past; you need evidence since your mathematical argument is incorrect.

Quote:Luckily for both of us "mathematicians" you haven't yet explained how the universe collapses and re-expands perpetually without losing power in the process--or where all this present matter and energy came from... I think God made it.

I don't need to explain that as I have made no claim about it.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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