Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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06-08-2015, 01:29 PM (This post was last modified: 06-08-2015 01:39 PM by Airportkid.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(06-08-2015 12:49 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I never said I cannot define god or that god is anything but self-evident to me. You are the person who said "we cannot ever possibly come up with a definition for god".

Au contraire, Q. I said:

(06-08-2015 10:41 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  I'm sure all of us would welcome, Q, hearing that kind of definition, whether yours or anyone's. To my knowledge there is no such thing. Perhaps there needs to be a pre-debate debate: Is It Even Possible to Derive a Scientific, Falsifiable, Testable Definition of a God - you, of course, taking the affirmative position and putting one forth for the first time recorded history.

I didn't say anything there about any "we" never being able to define a god, or that you couldn't. It's a debatable proposition, as my statement suggests. I personally don't think it's possible, but that's a long way from "never" possible. Unlike you, my degree of certainty isn't absolute.

YOU said:

(06-08-2015 10:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... You would refuse to debate me at all, ever, because we cannot ever possibly come up with a definition for god ...

That wasn't me, sir, that was you saying that.

AND, it seems to me, using a pretense to AVOID doing something wholly reasonable: provide a definition.

I will quote you again:

(06-08-2015 12:49 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... I never said I cannot define god ...

Good! So define your god. Put it down for review, for debate, for HONEST discussion. You keep dodging behind false fences you first of all AREN'T succeeding in hiding behind, and second you ARE revealing you have no argument even YOU believe cogent.

What is your god? Spell it out. Perhaps to everyone's surprise it'll have roots of scientific tenability. But until you do so all of us observing you can see ONLY someone insisting he's dead certain of a vacuous UNcertainty - and it looks exceedingly foolish.
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06-08-2015, 03:20 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(06-08-2015 10:50 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 10:16 AM)morondog Wrote:  Thumbsup Nice Q, you've managed to give the impression that God is a well defined concept and simultaneously imply that we disbelieve because we're too stupid to see that there is no evidence for no God. Well played, slimy apologist, well played.

Not at all! I was just trying to impress on Mark that neither of us should waste our time in a debate--oh, also that, well, would YOU take the affirmative on my resolution?

If not, why not? Do you have evidence that there is no god that we can subject to rules of evidence, peer review and lab tests?

Thanks! Because I'd want THAT if I was to deconvert, right? Don't tell me EVERYONE who is a skeptic at TTA deconverted because of their feelings?!

"I was just trying to impress on Mark that neither of us should waste our time in a debate"

Really? Why didn't you just say that? Why did you challenge me to a debate? What is so difficult about being real and honest and just saying what you think?
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06-08-2015, 03:40 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(06-08-2015 10:50 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 10:16 AM)morondog Wrote:  Thumbsup Nice Q, you've managed to give the impression that God is a well defined concept and simultaneously imply that we disbelieve because we're too stupid to see that there is no evidence for no God. Well played, slimy apologist, well played.

Not at all! I was just trying to impress on Mark that neither of us should waste our time in a debate--oh, also that, well, would YOU take the affirmative on my resolution?

If not, why not? Do you have evidence that there is no god that we can subject to rules of evidence, peer review and lab tests?

Thanks! Because I'd want THAT if I was to deconvert, right? Don't tell me EVERYONE who is a skeptic at TTA deconverted because of their feelings?!

Q, as Bucky and others said, it is impossible to prove something doesn't exist. You can't prove pink unicorns don't exist, and neither can I. So you could replace your god with anything in this fallicious argument.

If your argument is valid, why not worship the pink unicorn?

A serious, honest question to you Q. Do you now see the fallacy in this argument?
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06-08-2015, 03:43 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(06-08-2015 01:29 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  Au contraire, Q. I said:

YOU said:

(06-08-2015 10:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... You would refuse to debate me at all, ever, because we cannot ever possibly come up with a definition for god ...

That wasn't me, sir, that was you saying that.

Q has no fucking clue what he's saying let alone what he's said.

#sigh
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06-08-2015, 11:20 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(06-08-2015 12:48 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Is it a reasonable implication of your argument that if I can never prove there is a god, you can never prove there isn't a god? Because I'd derive that from your statement:

Quote:...define your God as a testable, falsifiable God. If you can't then debating *either* proposition is pointless

If you're happy to worship an untestable, unfalsifiable God that's up to you, but you're the guy saying confidently "My God exists". If *your* God exists yet is untestable and unfalsifiable, *how* do you get such confidence? I freely admit that proving that such a God does not exist is impossible as that's inherent in the definition - *unfalsifiable*.

If on the other hand you claim that your God *is* falsifiable, then you should be able to show the process by which you know that he exists. You should be able to define what you mean by God to the point that when you say "And this observation proves that God exists" the God hypothesis a. fits the facts b. is a better explanation than all others for that particular observation.

Otherwise, I repeat, otherwise, *how* do you know that your God exists? Why are you so confident?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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07-08-2015, 12:41 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(06-08-2015 12:58 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 10:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Debate resolution:

There is scientific, falsifiable, testable, citable evidence that there is no god.

You will of course have the affirmative position.

LMAO
Don't you wish.
Nice try, you disingenuous freakazoid.
No one can prove a negative.

I propose you two debate "There is scientific testable, citable evidence that there are no pink sparkly ruby encrusted unicorns". That at least would make more sense than debating the nonexistence of an undefined meme that no one can define coherently.

Unfortunately you are engaging in sophistry, BB, because you already know--and should acknowledge--that neither of us would choose the affirmative side in that debate.

I will repeat--since you must have missed my earlier inference--that regardless of whether we can prove a negative or not--that since you don't have any scientific evidence (and you won't admit it, but you don't) that there is no god, you might want to be consistent (and, more important to me, a nice gentleman) and not scream at every theist who walks into TTA's doors, "Where's your scientific proof of god, dimwit?!" Because it sure sounds to me like wish fulfillment, unless you add your subtext, "I have no science behind what I believe and would love to see someone's about either side of this issue. I'm desperate!"

Yes, the Bible I love describes you accurately where it says, "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are..."

And, if you like, I can debate your fluffy proposition:

No one can prove a negative.

1) I can prove a negative right now. There is no coffee in my refrigerator. So, if you like, I can go and post a video to the boxing ring, and win the debate (unless you wish to stay in the ring long enough to "prove" there is coffee in my refrigerator today). That should prove amusing. Perhaps you will find some Starbucks in there or even God in there... who knows? You don't even know for sure if I'm telling the truth and if there is coffee in my fridge or if I'm bluffing, yet you have the brass to post angry, nasty responses online to dozens of theists, telling them they are lacking all the information. How dare you, sir.

2) You stated your own proposition in an illogical and self-defeating manner by using the unfortunate term "no one". "No one..." is a negative term meaning "none of this group exists". To even debate your resolution, we would need to first establish that positives and negatives exist. We have to believe there are right and wrong sides of the debate, that is to say, that this resolution I will affirm is a truth (or no-truth) or negative against the truth before we even debate. Heck, man, even if you are told by everyone at TTA including me that you WON the debate, you would have proven the negative of my resolution.

So, let's not debate but be friends, as no matter whether you or I pick the resolution under fire, you seem to be losing.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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07-08-2015, 12:44 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(06-08-2015 01:29 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 12:49 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I never said I cannot define god or that god is anything but self-evident to me. You are the person who said "we cannot ever possibly come up with a definition for god".

Au contraire, Q. I said:

(06-08-2015 10:41 AM)Airportkid Wrote:  I'm sure all of us would welcome, Q, hearing that kind of definition, whether yours or anyone's. To my knowledge there is no such thing. Perhaps there needs to be a pre-debate debate: Is It Even Possible to Derive a Scientific, Falsifiable, Testable Definition of a God - you, of course, taking the affirmative position and putting one forth for the first time recorded history.

I didn't say anything there about any "we" never being able to define a god, or that you couldn't. It's a debatable proposition, as my statement suggests. I personally don't think it's possible, but that's a long way from "never" possible. Unlike you, my degree of certainty isn't absolute.

YOU said:

(06-08-2015 10:52 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... You would refuse to debate me at all, ever, because we cannot ever possibly come up with a definition for god ...

That wasn't me, sir, that was you saying that.

AND, it seems to me, using a pretense to AVOID doing something wholly reasonable: provide a definition.

I will quote you again:

(06-08-2015 12:49 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... I never said I cannot define god ...

Good! So define your god. Put it down for review, for debate, for HONEST discussion. You keep dodging behind false fences you first of all AREN'T succeeding in hiding behind, and second you ARE revealing you have no argument even YOU believe cogent.

What is your god? Spell it out. Perhaps to everyone's surprise it'll have roots of scientific tenability. But until you do so all of us observing you can see ONLY someone insisting he's dead certain of a vacuous UNcertainty - and it looks exceedingly foolish.

God: "A spirit or being that has great power, strength, knowledge, etc., and that can affect nature and the lives of people."

You are affecting my nature right now and my life. You must be god!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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07-08-2015, 12:45 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(06-08-2015 03:20 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 10:50 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Not at all! I was just trying to impress on Mark that neither of us should waste our time in a debate--oh, also that, well, would YOU take the affirmative on my resolution?

If not, why not? Do you have evidence that there is no god that we can subject to rules of evidence, peer review and lab tests?

Thanks! Because I'd want THAT if I was to deconvert, right? Don't tell me EVERYONE who is a skeptic at TTA deconverted because of their feelings?!

"I was just trying to impress on Mark that neither of us should waste our time in a debate"

Really? Why didn't you just say that? Why did you challenge me to a debate? What is so difficult about being real and honest and just saying what you think?

Mark, I've challenged you to three debates so far. And then I posted a further two resolutions to others. Be consistent--and honest. Please stop lying.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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07-08-2015, 12:47 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(06-08-2015 11:20 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(06-08-2015 12:48 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Is it a reasonable implication of your argument that if I can never prove there is a god, you can never prove there isn't a god? Because I'd derive that from your statement:

If you're happy to worship an untestable, unfalsifiable God that's up to you, but you're the guy saying confidently "My God exists". If *your* God exists yet is untestable and unfalsifiable, *how* do you get such confidence? I freely admit that proving that such a God does not exist is impossible as that's inherent in the definition - *unfalsifiable*.

If on the other hand you claim that your God *is* falsifiable, then you should be able to show the process by which you know that he exists. You should be able to define what you mean by God to the point that when you say "And this observation proves that God exists" the God hypothesis a. fits the facts b. is a better explanation than all others for that particular observation.

Otherwise, I repeat, otherwise, *how* do you know that your God exists? Why are you so confident?

Yes, my God both exists and reigns. But to fully answer your honest question of "How do you know your God exists?" we'd have to define terms as to how we can know anything with absolute certainty.

Do you believe in absolutes? Because Mark claims to do so (now)--if you don't, you are setting up a straw man where you never may absolutely know me, yourself... or God.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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07-08-2015, 01:08 PM (This post was last modified: 07-08-2015 03:41 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(07-08-2015 12:41 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  you might want to be consistent (and, more important to me, a nice gentleman) and not scream at every theist who walks into TTA's doors, "Where's your scientific proof of god, dimwit?!" Because it sure sounds to me like wish fulfillment, unless you add your subtext, "I have no science behind what I believe and would love to see someone's about either side of this issue. I'm desperate!"

Liar. I have never once said that. If I need any advice from the likes of you, I'll be sure and ask.

I ask for a coherent, internally consistent definition of a god. That precedes a request for evidence. Neither you, nor anyone has ever been able to give one.

(07-08-2015 12:41 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Yes, the Bible I love describes you accurately where it says, "You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are..."

The Bible you love exists only in your head. The real Bible that scholars teach, you know nothing about, and are unable to even begin to discuss. And "your Bible" also tells you "Judge not, last ye be judged". I see you think you are exempt from your Jebus' words.

(07-08-2015 12:41 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  And, if you like, I can debate your fluffy proposition:
No one can prove a negative.
1) I can prove a negative right now. There is no coffee in my refrigerator. So, if you like, I can go and post a video to the boxing ring, and win the debate (unless you wish to stay in the ring long enough to "prove" there is coffee in my refrigerator today). That should prove amusing. Perhaps you will find some Starbucks in there or even God in there... who knows? You don't even know for sure if I'm telling the truth and if there is coffee in my fridge or if I'm bluffing, yet you have the brass to post angry, nasty responses online to dozens of theists, telling them they are lacking all the information. How dare you, sir.

How dare YOU sir. You cannot prove there is no coffee in your refrigerator. You lack both the techical skills and the equipment, and you would never know if you missed a molecule. Your stupid childish dishonest attempted analogy is false. The correct anaology would be "There is no coffee (anywhere)". It is an axiom of Logic (which you lack in it's entirety), and not my "fluffy" anything, you ignoramus.

(07-08-2015 12:41 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  So, let's not debate but be friends, as no matter whether you or I pick the resolution under fire, you seem to be losing.

The only one losing anything here is you, and consistently so. There is no one here who thinks you have ever won even one point.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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