Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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17-04-2015, 05:58 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(17-04-2015 12:51 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Jesus paid the penalty for our sins.

Jesus died for the sins of all mankind, everywhere, everywhen. Through His sacrifice we are all going to Heaven whether we like it or not. To make salvation conditional on some mental state in my head not only diminishes the sacrifice of The Christ to the point of being worthless, it is the height of arrogance. A trait which seems common to all false "Christians".

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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17-04-2015, 07:06 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JMSkcCV790
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17-04-2015, 10:47 PM (This post was last modified: 17-04-2015 11:10 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(17-04-2015 07:06 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JMSkcCV790

Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine.












There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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18-04-2015, 06:55 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
The god of the Old Testament enforced his will on everyone without their approval:

Kicking Adam out of Eden and future descendents, even though the descendents didn't eat the magical fruit.

Drowning everyone on the planet was no one's choice, but this god drowned them anyway.

Confusing everyone's language as we were trying to organize civilization was enforced upon everyone without their choice.

Killing all of the first born in Egypt, even though the Pharaoh was willing to release the Hebrews was without Pharaoh's or the people of Egypt's choice, the same for every plague where this god "hardened the heart".
Not only did YHWH force Pharaoh's decision, but he also punished the innocents because of the decision he forced Pharaoh to have!

Killing anyone in Canaan that were simply living their lives, they didn't even get the choice to convert to Judaism, they were simply slaughtered, many times because they didn't have the same gods as the Hebrews.

So we eventually get to Jesus and his alleged sacrifice and it's all about choice. God is so respectful of our choice now, the only thing that will happen if you don't make the right choice is you'll burn in hell forever!

The path to heaven is narrow, the path to hell is wide, but it's considered just because god respects our choice now!

So choice becomes a rationale to absolve god from any accusations of being unjust or unfair or at least used by Christians to excuse his evil. In fact, choice is invoked to hand-wave away every bit of suffering that a supposedly benevolent god allows in this universe under YHWH's watchful eye.

God tramples over human choice throughout history, but now choice is so important YHWH now has full license to send billions to hell while his worshippers brainlessly proclaim how just he is.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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18-04-2015, 07:03 AM (This post was last modified: 18-04-2015 07:15 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(17-04-2015 12:51 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Your guilt or culpability is in no way expiated by the death of Jesus. However, your punishment is. If I'm five years old and get caught stealing a candy bar from a grocery store and I have no money, my mother can give the store owner $1.00 but I still have to deal with other consequences including, perhaps, guilt.
Jesus paid the penalty for our sins. If you want to feel more guilty or more forgiven after you receive Jesus, that is your choice.

I was raised to believe that:
- Hell is either only or primarily a separation from God rather than being purely or primarily a place of punishment.
- This separation is needed because God cannot cannot stand sin, or exist in the same place as sin.
- Sins were washed away by the blood of the lamb, allowing us to enter heaven / avoid separation

But,
1. What does washing sins away with the blood of the lamb mean? How does it work? Why is it that only Christians can be washed this way? If Ghandi's penalty is paid by the blood of the lamb, why can Jesus never wash him clean? In short, why is Universalism false?
2. Why was the sacrifice required? Why can't God wash away sins without killing his son to do so? Why such an elaborate ritual simply to forgive someone or to wash away their sins?

Something to watch while you are thinking:







Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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18-04-2015, 07:24 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(18-04-2015 07:03 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  - This separation is needed because God cannot cannot stand sin, or exist in the same place as sin.

If god exists everywhere then isn't he also in hell with all the sinners? If not, then he doesn't exist everywhere.
Smartass

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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18-04-2015, 08:51 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(18-04-2015 07:03 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  - This separation is needed because God cannot cannot stand sin, or exist in the same place as sin.

And what kind of deity worth the name sits around and frets about something as vague and variable and subject to misinterpretation as "sin"—or "can't stand" anything? Yahweh is nothing so much as a bored, petulant teenager.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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18-04-2015, 08:59 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(17-04-2015 10:49 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-04-2015 03:45 PM)Commonsensei Wrote:  Now I feel it also should be noted that Stalin never PERSONALLY killed anyone. He knew how to get people to do his dirty work but never pulled the trigger. Just like Charles Manson who we consider a serial killer. We count the blood being on their hands. Dose this still fall under the "You shall not murder" commandment?

I'll tell you one thing thou. Had I had omnipotent power, and was omniscient maybe i would have given Stalin that fatal heart attack earlier in his life, or maybe made his father not be a drunk so he wouldn't beat him.

And if we're playing that God is real. And the Bible stories true. Then all the blood is on god's hands. Every senseless murder, ever rape, EVERY torture! How many lives did God take when he "flooded the world"? How many lives where taken when God guided those Jewish Armies? How many lives have been lost in just our life times? We see this continuous war in Israeli. Some promised land that turned out to be.

Why go halfway here? Let's go toward the logical end of what you're saying...

Everyone who ever dies for any reason is taken away. Be it you at age 105 or a patriarch at 605. So now we need to discern whether man ushered death unto himself, and continues to do so, each man, via sin, or whether God is a mere killer who cannot raise the dead to eternal life again...

Again if we're playing the Bible stories are true. Adam and Eve would have been immortal right?

Genesis 2:17 If you eat its fruit, you are sure to die.

Now it took them 900 years to due so. God put the Tree in an easy to reach area. God could have put it on a mountain, outside the garden or not made it to start with. If he is omniscient then ether he knew they were going to eat it anyway. He knew it was going to kill them but he still made it. And he knew it was going to affect every ancestor to ever follow.

So yeah. I'm going along with the story I still put it on God's have if people are making the clam of Omniscient, Omnipotent, and Omnipresent. All powers a mere mortal doesn't have then yes. I say the blood is still on Gods hands. If God is, always has, and always will be then he has not idea the suffering that would come from death. What a morbid concept. The only way we can survive is by killing another living thing. Weather it be a plant, or animal. Something needs to die so that we can live.

Don't Live each day like it's your last. Live each day like you have 541 days after that one where every choice you make will have lasting implications to you and the world around you. ~ Tim Minchin
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18-04-2015, 10:32 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(17-04-2015 05:58 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Jesus died for the sins of all mankind, everywhere, everywhen. Through His sacrifice we are all going to Heaven whether we like it or not. To make salvation conditional on some mental state in my head not only diminishes the sacrifice of The Christ to the point of being worthless, it is the height of arrogance. A trait which seems common to all false "Christians".

Given the trinity, god, Jesus and the holy ghost are one being in three aspects, or so I was led to believe in my catholic upbringing. So Jesus died for a sin, he, in his other persona, created in the first place. He's also god, all powerful, all knowing and eternal. So, given these attributes, he couldn't die, since an eternal and by definition immortal being is immune to death.

So, this whole story doesn't make sense on too many levels to mention. The other two personas were still around and only a mortal shell died, if that. See, the crux with that story is human interpretation. One of the cardinal sins christianity introduced into humanity is this glorification of suffering, based on a tale that doesn't hold water, if you so much as look at it.
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18-04-2015, 11:19 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(18-04-2015 07:03 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  1. What does washing sins away with the blood of the lamb mean? How does it work? Why is it that only Christians can be washed this way? If Ghandi's penalty is paid by the blood of the lamb, why can Jesus never wash him clean? In short, why is Universalism false?

Why indeed. I haven't received a good answer from any Christian I've asked.

(18-04-2015 06:55 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  The path to heaven is narrow, the path to hell is wide, but it's considered just because god respects our choice now!

There is a third way. Big Grin




There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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