Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
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10-09-2015, 02:04 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
GirlyMan lists why religious belief is prevalent:

(28-08-2015 10:19 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Biological Essentialism
Teleological Thinking
Overactive Agency Detection
Dualism
Inability to Comprehend Vast Time Scales
Group Morality and Tribalism
Fear and the Need for Certainty

The intractability of displacing religious belief is right there: the list of religious roots isn't simple; it's lengthy and complex (and I'm sure Girly's list is not complete).

But I think introduction to this list should begin before the 2nd grade, when the human mind hasn't got any bones anywhere in it yet, hasn't calcified prejudices. Learning the knowledge comprised by the list need not touch on religion at all; the list is attributes of high brain function in a social species. But learning it would I think make religious inclination cognitively dissonant if not outright impossible.

The terrific thing is that there is a list. There is little mystery left in religion; the opened books of its architecture, plumbing, and wiring are the vital first stage of its eventual demolition.
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11-09-2015, 10:08 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(09-09-2015 12:29 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(09-09-2015 12:22 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I do. And I further understand it requires extraordinary proof to prove God's existence and so on. However, as I've pointed out elsewhere, most arguments against the Bible are not made from historical context, opposing documents, etc. but arguments from silence and arguments rooted in sheer anti-metaphysical biases.

There is no "proof" for a god, or faith would be unnecessary. The only reason you are unfamiliar with arguments against the Bible, is that you have no real Biblical education. You have failed to address even one of the arguments from the archaeology video I posted. You are totally incompetent to even begin discussing the subject of the Bible.

I am familiar with the precepts and methods of higher criticism, textual criticism, Greco-Roman literature contemporary to the NT, etc. The reason I would call yours a pot-and-kettle post, however, and I'm saying this to you kindly, is that I tend to tell what I think and reveal my positions while you:

1. Copy and paste almost blindly whatever scholars have written recently, without adding your own ideas

2. Refuse to abandon the more ludicrous of these ideas after I've debunked them

An example might include your continuing to insist that Paul was a Roman apologist/conspiracist based on about four verses out of context, despite these facts:

* Paul was a RABBI circumcised on the eighth day, a Benjamite, and a leading student of Hillel

* Paul wrote literally thousands of verses concerning Jewish Mishnah, halachic interpretation, Jewish customs, biblical festivals, etc.

* Paul made statements like "What advantage has the Jew? Great in every respect... I could wish I was lost for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites... do not be deceived, God is showing mercy to the Gentiles (including Romans) for some time until all Israel is saved..."

* Paul wrote a BOOK of some thousands of words to the church at Rome, which book is now called "Romans" for obvious reasons--a VERY awkward thing to do if one is attempting to hide their Roman conspiracies

* There are numerous verses in Paul denigrating Gentiles as particularly degenerate and flouting the Roman authorities as being utterly unable to try Paul or even hold him in prison! Romans condemns Gentiles for vile sin and their treatment of the Jewish people above all Pauline epistles...

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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11-09-2015, 03:13 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(09-09-2015 04:49 PM)Airportkid Wrote:  
(09-09-2015 12:24 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  ... You have consistently used the fact that some children suffer to demonstrate ... that God does not exist.

Since some children suffer very little if at all, and even have tremendous, abiding joy, please explain why that doesn't mean God exists. After all, you say suffering proves the opposite ...

Substitute something else that doesn't exist for the word "god" and what's wrong with your logic is made plain:

You have consistently used the fact that some children suffer to demonstrate ... that universally available comprehensive medical care does not exist.

Since some children suffer very little if at all, and even have tremendous, abiding joy, please explain why that doesn't mean universally available comprehensive medical care exists. After all, you say suffering proves the opposite ...

Beautifully nailed.
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11-09-2015, 03:50 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(11-09-2015 10:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(09-09-2015 12:29 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is no "proof" for a god, or faith would be unnecessary. The only reason you are unfamiliar with arguments against the Bible, is that you have no real Biblical education. You have failed to address even one of the arguments from the archaeology video I posted. You are totally incompetent to even begin discussing the subject of the Bible.

I am familiar with the precepts and methods of higher criticism, textual criticism, Greco-Roman literature contemporary to the NT, etc. The reason I would call yours a pot-and-kettle post, however, and I'm saying this to you kindly, is that I tend to tell what I think and reveal my positions while you:

1. Copy and paste almost blindly whatever scholars have written recently, without adding your own ideas

2. Refuse to abandon the more ludicrous of these ideas after I've debunked them

An example might include your continuing to insist that Paul was a Roman apologist/conspiracist based on about four verses out of context, despite these facts:

* Paul was a RABBI circumcised on the eighth day, a Benjamite, and a leading student of Hillel

* Paul wrote literally thousands of verses concerning Jewish Mishnah, halachic interpretation, Jewish customs, biblical festivals, etc.

* Paul made statements like "What advantage has the Jew? Great in every respect... I could wish I was lost for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites... do not be deceived, God is showing mercy to the Gentiles (including Romans) for some time until all Israel is saved..."

* Paul wrote a BOOK of some thousands of words to the church at Rome, which book is now called "Romans" for obvious reasons--a VERY awkward thing to do if one is attempting to hide their Roman conspiracies

* There are numerous verses in Paul denigrating Gentiles as particularly degenerate and flouting the Roman authorities as being utterly unable to try Paul or even hold him in prison! Romans condemns Gentiles for vile sin and their treatment of the Jewish people above all Pauline epistles...

I think you have me confused with someone else.
References required for every claim, or you are dismissed.
Try harder.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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11-09-2015, 03:58 PM (This post was last modified: 11-09-2015 05:22 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(11-09-2015 10:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I am familiar with the precepts and methods of higher criticism, textual criticism, Greco-Roman literature contemporary to the NT, etc. The reason I would call yours a pot-and-kettle post, however, and I'm saying this to you kindly, is that I tend to tell what I think and reveal my positions while you:

1. Copy and paste almost blindly whatever scholars have written recently, without adding your own ideas

2. Refuse to abandon the more ludicrous of these ideas after I've debunked them

An example might include your continuing to insist that Paul was a Roman apologist/conspiracist based on about four verses out of context, despite these facts:

* Paul was a RABBI circumcised on the eighth day, a Benjamite, and a leading student of Hillel

* Paul wrote literally thousands of verses concerning Jewish Mishnah, halachic interpretation, Jewish customs, biblical festivals, etc.

* Paul made statements like "What advantage has the Jew? Great in every respect... I could wish I was lost for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites... do not be deceived, God is showing mercy to the Gentiles (including Romans) for some time until all Israel is saved..."

* Paul wrote a BOOK of some thousands of words to the church at Rome, which book is now called "Romans" for obvious reasons--a VERY awkward thing to do if one is attempting to hide their Roman conspiracies

* There are numerous verses in Paul denigrating Gentiles as particularly degenerate and flouting the Roman authorities as being utterly unable to try Paul or even hold him in prison! Romans condemns Gentiles for vile sin and their treatment of the Jewish people above all Pauline epistles...

Being familiar with definitions, does not make you competent to work in any subject.

You have still failed to address even one of the archeological points in the Bible Unearthed video. You also have never addressed even one of my points in my long paper on the resurrection here, (you have never written anything or presented anything of academic substance here). You are incompetent to discuss the bible, and you have 'debunked" nothing.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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11-09-2015, 04:22 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(11-09-2015 10:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(09-09-2015 12:29 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is no "proof" for a god, or faith would be unnecessary. The only reason you are unfamiliar with arguments against the Bible, is that you have no real Biblical education. You have failed to address even one of the arguments from the archaeology video I posted. You are totally incompetent to even begin discussing the subject of the Bible.

I am familiar with the precepts and methods of higher criticism, textual criticism, Greco-Roman literature contemporary to the NT, etc. The reason I would call yours a pot-and-kettle post, however, and I'm saying this to you kindly, is that I tend to tell what I think and reveal my positions while you:

1. Copy and paste almost blindly whatever scholars have written recently, without adding your own ideas

2. Refuse to abandon the more ludicrous of these ideas after I've debunked them

An example might include your continuing to insist that Paul was a Roman apologist/conspiracist based on about four verses out of context, despite these facts:

* Paul was a RABBI circumcised on the eighth day, a Benjamite, and a leading student of Hillel

* Paul wrote literally thousands of verses concerning Jewish Mishnah, halachic interpretation, Jewish customs, biblical festivals, etc.

* Paul made statements like "What advantage has the Jew? Great in every respect... I could wish I was lost for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites... do not be deceived, God is showing mercy to the Gentiles (including Romans) for some time until all Israel is saved..."

* Paul wrote a BOOK of some thousands of words to the church at Rome, which book is now called "Romans" for obvious reasons--a VERY awkward thing to do if one is attempting to hide their Roman conspiracies

* There are numerous verses in Paul denigrating Gentiles as particularly degenerate and flouting the Roman authorities as being utterly unable to try Paul or even hold him in prison! Romans condemns Gentiles for vile sin and their treatment of the Jewish people above all Pauline epistles...

"An example might include your continuing to insist that Paul was a Roman apologist/conspiracist"

I suspect you may be getting me and Bucky Ball mixed up. I can't blame you for that... we're both incredibly smart, witty and good looking.Big Grin

"Paul was a RABBI circumcised on the eighth day, a Benjamite, and a leading student of Hillel"

No. Paul was allegedly a student of Gamaliel ( a nonsense story made up by the author of the book of Acts.) Hillel was 100 years earlier.

"* Paul wrote literally thousands of verses concerning Jewish Mishnah, halachic interpretation, Jewish customs, biblical festivals, etc."

True. That doesn't mean he wasn't a pro Roman agent. He also undermined some of the basic tenets of Judaism.

"* Paul wrote a BOOK of some thousands of words to the church at Rome, which book is now called "Romans" for obvious reasons--a VERY awkward thing to do if one is attempting to hide their Roman conspiracies"

The statement doesn't even make sense. What is more, there is nothing "awkward" about the fact that Paul wrote to a community of Jews living in Rome. He lectured them on how to behave ie obey their imperial masters.
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11-09-2015, 05:25 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(11-09-2015 04:22 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(11-09-2015 10:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I am familiar with the precepts and methods of higher criticism, textual criticism, Greco-Roman literature contemporary to the NT, etc. The reason I would call yours a pot-and-kettle post, however, and I'm saying this to you kindly, is that I tend to tell what I think and reveal my positions while you:

1. Copy and paste almost blindly whatever scholars have written recently, without adding your own ideas

2. Refuse to abandon the more ludicrous of these ideas after I've debunked them

An example might include your continuing to insist that Paul was a Roman apologist/conspiracist based on about four verses out of context, despite these facts:

* Paul was a RABBI circumcised on the eighth day, a Benjamite, and a leading student of Hillel

* Paul wrote literally thousands of verses concerning Jewish Mishnah, halachic interpretation, Jewish customs, biblical festivals, etc.

* Paul made statements like "What advantage has the Jew? Great in every respect... I could wish I was lost for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites... do not be deceived, God is showing mercy to the Gentiles (including Romans) for some time until all Israel is saved..."

* Paul wrote a BOOK of some thousands of words to the church at Rome, which book is now called "Romans" for obvious reasons--a VERY awkward thing to do if one is attempting to hide their Roman conspiracies

* There are numerous verses in Paul denigrating Gentiles as particularly degenerate and flouting the Roman authorities as being utterly unable to try Paul or even hold him in prison! Romans condemns Gentiles for vile sin and their treatment of the Jewish people above all Pauline epistles...

"An example might include your continuing to insist that Paul was a Roman apologist/conspiracist"

I suspect you may be getting me and Bucky Ball mixed up. I can't blame you for that... we're both incredibly smart, witty and good looking.Big Grin

"Paul was a RABBI circumcised on the eighth day, a Benjamite, and a leading student of Hillel"

No. Paul was allegedly a student of Gamaliel ( a nonsense story made up by the author of the book of Acts.) Hillel was 100 years earlier.

"* Paul wrote literally thousands of verses concerning Jewish Mishnah, halachic interpretation, Jewish customs, biblical festivals, etc."

True. That doesn't mean he wasn't a pro Roman agent. He also undermined some of the basic tenets of Judaism.

"* Paul wrote a BOOK of some thousands of words to the church at Rome, which book is now called "Romans" for obvious reasons--a VERY awkward thing to do if one is attempting to hide their Roman conspiracies"

The statement doesn't even make sense. What is more, there is nothing "awkward" about the fact that Paul wrote to a community of Jews living in Rome. He lectured them on how to behave ie obey their imperial masters.

That's one of the (granted) arguments from silence, but seems compelling to me. If Paul had really sat at the feet of Gamaliel, as one of his few distinguished students, and later "turned away", some Jewish writer would have said something. No one even mentions it. That's very very odd.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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11-09-2015, 05:26 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(28-08-2015 11:38 PM)Chas Wrote:  Atheists' claims: Atheists do not accept the theists' claims of gods.

Ha! Thanks, Chas. Now I can legitimately call myself an atheist again without relinquishing my own divinity. It was close going there for a bit, like Gwynnies close. Whew.

#sigh
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11-09-2015, 09:05 PM (This post was last modified: 12-09-2015 02:20 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(11-09-2015 05:25 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(11-09-2015 04:22 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "An example might include your continuing to insist that Paul was a Roman apologist/conspiracist"

I suspect you may be getting me and Bucky Ball mixed up. I can't blame you for that... we're both incredibly smart, witty and good looking.Big Grin

"Paul was a RABBI circumcised on the eighth day, a Benjamite, and a leading student of Hillel"

No. Paul was allegedly a student of Gamaliel ( a nonsense story made up by the author of the book of Acts.) Hillel was 100 years earlier.

"* Paul wrote literally thousands of verses concerning Jewish Mishnah, halachic interpretation, Jewish customs, biblical festivals, etc."

True. That doesn't mean he wasn't a pro Roman agent. He also undermined some of the basic tenets of Judaism.

"* Paul wrote a BOOK of some thousands of words to the church at Rome, which book is now called "Romans" for obvious reasons--a VERY awkward thing to do if one is attempting to hide their Roman conspiracies"

The statement doesn't even make sense. What is more, there is nothing "awkward" about the fact that Paul wrote to a community of Jews living in Rome. He lectured them on how to behave ie obey their imperial masters.

That's one of the (granted) arguments from silence, but seems compelling to me. If Paul had really sat at the feet of Gamaliel, as one of his few distinguished students, and later "turned away", some Jewish writer would have said something. No one even mentions it. That's very very odd.

What's more, Paul himself never mentions Gamaliel, let alone that he was Gamaliel's student

And...Paul never lived in Jerusalem (where Gamaliel lived.) He grew up (probably) in Tarsus.
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11-09-2015, 09:24 PM (This post was last modified: 11-09-2015 09:30 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus Christ, A Pointless Sacrifice
(11-09-2015 10:08 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(09-09-2015 12:29 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is no "proof" for a god, or faith would be unnecessary. The only reason you are unfamiliar with arguments against the Bible, is that you have no real Biblical education. You have failed to address even one of the arguments from the archaeology video I posted. You are totally incompetent to even begin discussing the subject of the Bible.

I am familiar with the precepts and methods of higher criticism, textual criticism, Greco-Roman literature contemporary to the NT, etc. The reason I would call yours a pot-and-kettle post, however, and I'm saying this to you kindly, is that I tend to tell what I think and reveal my positions while you:

1. Copy and paste almost blindly whatever scholars have written recently, without adding your own ideas

2. Refuse to abandon the more ludicrous of these ideas after I've debunked them

An example might include your continuing to insist that Paul was a Roman apologist/conspiracist based on about four verses out of context, despite these facts:

* Paul was a RABBI circumcised on the eighth day, a Benjamite, and a leading student of Hillel

* Paul wrote literally thousands of verses concerning Jewish Mishnah, halachic interpretation, Jewish customs, biblical festivals, etc.

* Paul made statements like "What advantage has the Jew? Great in every respect... I could wish I was lost for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are Israelites... do not be deceived, God is showing mercy to the Gentiles (including Romans) for some time until all Israel is saved..."

* Paul wrote a BOOK of some thousands of words to the church at Rome, which book is now called "Romans" for obvious reasons--a VERY awkward thing to do if one is attempting to hide their Roman conspiracies

* There are numerous verses in Paul denigrating Gentiles as particularly degenerate and flouting the Roman authorities as being utterly unable to try Paul or even hold him in prison! Romans condemns Gentiles for vile sin and their treatment of the Jewish people above all Pauline epistles...

"* There are numerous verses in Paul denigrating Gentiles as particularly degenerate and flouting the Roman authorities as being utterly unable to try Paul or even hold him in prison! Romans condemns Gentiles for vile sin and their treatment of the Jewish people above all Pauline epistles..."

Q is only demonstrating here that he has little understanding of the historical context in which Paul wrote, and that he hasn't read enough of Paul to understand what motivated him.

Paul occasionally denigrated Gentiles... when he was writing to Jews. He also bad mouthed Jews when he was writing to Gentiles. For example, Paul wrote

“For you, my brothers, have been like the churches of God in Christ Jesus which are in Judaea, in suffering the same treatment from your own countrymen as they have suffered from the Jews, the people who put the Lord Jesus to death, and the prophets too. And now they have been persecuting us, and acting in a way that cannot please God and makes them the enemies of the whole human race, because they are hindering us from preaching to the pagans and trying to save them” (1 Thess. 2:14–16 JB.)

Here Paul sounds like a Roman government employee. He was astonishingly critical of “the Jews,” accusing them of murdering Jesus. He damned an entire nation and an ancient religion. It’s interesting to realize that he was probably referring to the Nazarenes, the very people who were Yeshua’s true disciples.

Paul was a weak, vacillating con man. He was inventive and manipulative, and tailored his arguments to suit whatever audience he was writing to.
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