Jesus Christ, calm your tits.
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22-11-2016, 06:53 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, calm your tits.
(22-11-2016 08:48 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 08:27 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:  I'm just wondering, what suffering would be alleviated if racists were allowed to discriminate?

Well, there needn't be any for it to be the moral, but I also happen to think legislating how private individuals/privately owned business conduct business with people reduces actual racism (not just actions resulting from racism) through something akin to the Streisand Effect. Let me give you an example from recent history.

I grew up in a tiny town in mountains of East, TN. My area, historically, opposed the Confederacy. Ergo, there were few people who cared for the Rebel Flag. I may have seen 3 people who displayed a rebel flag in my life. It was a non-issue. Then local governments starting banning the flag, and the major retailers began banning it because of it symbolized racism to many people. To many people in the South it was more of a symbol of southern pride, or some such identity non-sense. When it became popular to ban the flag, and people started shouting "Racist!" at people who weren't racist, guess what they did? They didn't burn the rebel flag. The bought it....and displayed it. In numbers I have never seen before in my life. I even saw a young black kid with a rebel flag flying from his truck.

So, if you are a racist, let's say, and someone tells you "You have to do business with blacks the same as whites". Well, fuck. It's worse than you thought. The black people have got their dirty little hands into to Washington and they are trying to tell YOU what to do. No fucking way. Those sons of bitches are blah blah blah.

Racists only dig into their ways even and spout their rhetoric to their impressionable children even more. Not only that, but because you have forced them to do business with people they hate, you have unwittingly helped them stay successful. If I am a black man walking into your racist store with these laws in place I am unwittingly providing a paycheck to someone who thinks I am trash for having the wrong skin color. Had I known you were racist, I'd have taken my business elsewhere. Not only that, I think most white people, even in the most racist pockets of the country, would have done the same exact thing.

So, in my opinion, allowing people to do business as they please is helps fight racism, and your way of doing things helps it die a slower death than it normally would.

I personally don't give a fuck whether a racist asshole is angry about having to serve a black person (or a homophobe a gay person, etc.). I agree that racist assholes are most usually going to stay assholes their whole lives. I don't agree that that's a reason to kid-glove them. Hoping that assholes are going to do the right thing eventually is what led, for example, to the Jim Crow South. Hoping that other people are going to shame powerful members of their community into being nice people into assholes also does not work (Jim Crow South), at least not most of the time.

History contradicts your assertions. Today, many kids and grandkids of the racist assholes who served black customers with a sneer and a spit in their food are now serving black customers with a smile and a welcome. The great thing is that many kids reject and renounce their parents' attitudes. Maybe because they went to school with black kids or lived down the street from black families and realized that their parents were bananas.

Some changes have to be forced, once it becomes clear that people on their own won't do the right thing in enough numbers to be counted.

I'm a Southerner, by the way, poor white trash background, just in case you think I'm just being theoretical and not writing from experience. I was part of one generational change. My high school class elected a black president, the first one in the high school's history, in 1979; my best friend got in social trouble for dating guys who weren't the same race--almost unthinkable now. Our parents disapproved, and they were wrong, wrong, wrong. Thirty, forty years later, even many of our parents have admitted they were wrong. The ones who haven't--fuck them.

Your argument that the racist status quo will magically evaporate if people don't challenge it is either naive or disingenuous. It's not possible to find a voice soft enough or posture unthreatening enough that racist assholes won't take offense, and as long as you make content kneel under tone, you're supporting the racist assholes and their injustice.
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22-11-2016, 07:19 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, calm your tits.
(22-11-2016 06:53 PM)julep Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 08:48 AM)Dark Light Wrote:  Well, there needn't be any for it to be the moral, but I also happen to think legislating how private individuals/privately owned business conduct business with people reduces actual racism (not just actions resulting from racism) through something akin to the Streisand Effect. Let me give you an example from recent history.

I grew up in a tiny town in mountains of East, TN. My area, historically, opposed the Confederacy. Ergo, there were few people who cared for the Rebel Flag. I may have seen 3 people who displayed a rebel flag in my life. It was a non-issue. Then local governments starting banning the flag, and the major retailers began banning it because of it symbolized racism to many people. To many people in the South it was more of a symbol of southern pride, or some such identity non-sense. When it became popular to ban the flag, and people started shouting "Racist!" at people who weren't racist, guess what they did? They didn't burn the rebel flag. The bought it....and displayed it. In numbers I have never seen before in my life. I even saw a young black kid with a rebel flag flying from his truck.

So, if you are a racist, let's say, and someone tells you "You have to do business with blacks the same as whites". Well, fuck. It's worse than you thought. The black people have got their dirty little hands into to Washington and they are trying to tell YOU what to do. No fucking way. Those sons of bitches are blah blah blah.

Racists only dig into their ways even and spout their rhetoric to their impressionable children even more. Not only that, but because you have forced them to do business with people they hate, you have unwittingly helped them stay successful. If I am a black man walking into your racist store with these laws in place I am unwittingly providing a paycheck to someone who thinks I am trash for having the wrong skin color. Had I known you were racist, I'd have taken my business elsewhere. Not only that, I think most white people, even in the most racist pockets of the country, would have done the same exact thing.

So, in my opinion, allowing people to do business as they please is helps fight racism, and your way of doing things helps it die a slower death than it normally would.

I personally don't give a fuck whether a racist asshole is angry about having to serve a black person (or a homophobe a gay person, etc.). I agree that racist assholes are most usually going to stay assholes their whole lives. I don't agree that that's a reason to kid-glove them. Hoping that assholes are going to do the right thing eventually is what led, for example, to the Jim Crow South. Hoping that other people are going to shame powerful members of their community into being nice people into assholes also does not work (Jim Crow South), at least not most of the time.

History contradicts your assertions. Today, many kids and grandkids of the racist assholes who served black customers with a sneer and a spit in their food are now serving black customers with a smile and a welcome. The great thing is that many kids reject and renounce their parents' attitudes. Maybe because they went to school with black kids or lived down the street from black families and realized that their parents were bananas.

Some changes have to be forced, once it becomes clear that people on their own won't do the right thing in enough numbers to be counted.

I'm a Southerner, by the way, poor white trash background, just in case you think I'm just being theoretical and not writing from experience. I was part of one generational change. My high school class elected a black president, the first one in the high school's history, in 1979; my best friend got in social trouble for dating guys who weren't the same race--almost unthinkable now. Our parents disapproved, and they were wrong, wrong, wrong. Thirty, forty years later, even many of our parents have admitted they were wrong. The ones who haven't--fuck them.

Your argument that the racist status quo will magically evaporate if people don't challenge it is either naive or disingenuous. It's not possible to find a voice soft enough or posture unthreatening enough that racist assholes won't take offense, and as long as you make content kneel under tone, you're supporting the racist assholes and their injustice.

I will just say that my experience has not been the same as yours, and nothing I claimed requires magic, nor did I make claims of miraculous bigotry evaporation, and the fact that you assume I am naive or disingenuous, and that those are the only possibilities says more about you than it does me. Like others have done, you are intentionally misrepresenting my positions. Implying my ideas requires supernatural forces is dishonest. One of us is being disingenuous, but it isn't me.

What you call "treating racists with kid-gloves", I would call the non-aggression principle. What you would call "forcing bad ideas out" I would call strengthening bad ideas by ideas through violence or threat of violence. You could make an argument that using violence or the threat of violence in the short-term would reduce violence in the long-term to such a degree that is more than off-sets the violence in the short-term, in addition to solving the problem of racism more efficiently than by leaving people alone. That might be a compelling argument, but I don't think there is any data to suggest that is the case.

As for the Jim Crowe laws, I think that is a poor example for you to make your case, because that is more in line with what you're suggesting than what I am in the sense that one forces people to do business in a way they don't want, and my way doesn't. The Jim Crowe laws are not compatible with free-markets or individual liberty. I believe racism was encouraged by Jim Crow Laws.

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22-11-2016, 07:39 PM
RE: Jesus Christ, calm your tits.
(22-11-2016 07:19 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 06:53 PM)julep Wrote:  I personally don't give a fuck whether a racist asshole is angry about having to serve a black person (or a homophobe a gay person, etc.). I agree that racist assholes are most usually going to stay assholes their whole lives. I don't agree that that's a reason to kid-glove them. Hoping that assholes are going to do the right thing eventually is what led, for example, to the Jim Crow South. Hoping that other people are going to shame powerful members of their community into being nice people into assholes also does not work (Jim Crow South), at least not most of the time.

History contradicts your assertions. Today, many kids and grandkids of the racist assholes who served black customers with a sneer and a spit in their food are now serving black customers with a smile and a welcome. The great thing is that many kids reject and renounce their parents' attitudes. Maybe because they went to school with black kids or lived down the street from black families and realized that their parents were bananas.

Some changes have to be forced, once it becomes clear that people on their own won't do the right thing in enough numbers to be counted.

I'm a Southerner, by the way, poor white trash background, just in case you think I'm just being theoretical and not writing from experience. I was part of one generational change. My high school class elected a black president, the first one in the high school's history, in 1979; my best friend got in social trouble for dating guys who weren't the same race--almost unthinkable now. Our parents disapproved, and they were wrong, wrong, wrong. Thirty, forty years later, even many of our parents have admitted they were wrong. The ones who haven't--fuck them.

Your argument that the racist status quo will magically evaporate if people don't challenge it is either naive or disingenuous. It's not possible to find a voice soft enough or posture unthreatening enough that racist assholes won't take offense, and as long as you make content kneel under tone, you're supporting the racist assholes and their injustice.

I will just say that my experience has not been the same as yours, and nothing I claimed requires magic, nor did I make claims of miraculous bigotry evaporation, and the fact that you assume I am naive or disingenuous, and that those are the only possibilities says more about you than it does me. Like others have done, you are intentionally misrepresenting my positions. Implying my ideas requires supernatural forces is dishonest. One of us is being disingenuous, but it isn't me.

What you call "treating racists with kid-gloves", I would call the non-aggression principle. What you would call "forcing bad ideas out" I would call strengthening bad ideas by ideas through violence or threat of violence. You could make an argument that using violence or the threat of violence in the short-term would reduce violence in the long-term to such a degree that is more than off-sets the violence in the short-term, in addition to solving the problem of racism more efficiently than by leaving people alone. That might be a compelling argument, but I don't think there is any data to suggest that is the case.

As for the Jim Crowe laws, I think that is a poor example for you to make your case, because that is more in line with what you're suggesting than what I am in the sense that one forces people to do business in a way they don't want, and my way doesn't. The Jim Crowe laws are not compatible with free-markets or individual liberty. I believe racism was encouraged by Jim Crow Laws.

Okay, point me to some example of positive social change that hasn't been forced against the status quo's will. Where is one example of Jim Crow laws being fought EFFECTIVELY by the local communities? Why didn't the South correct Jim Crow by itself? Jim Crow is an excellent case because it shows that sometimes (I would argue, many times) market forces don't work to correct an injustice. ONE HUNDRED YEARS after the Civil War, and blacks were still treated as third-class citizens where they had once been slaves...that is not progress at a pace that Justice can tolerate.
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23-11-2016, 10:43 AM
RE: Jesus Christ, calm your tits.
(22-11-2016 07:39 PM)julep Wrote:  
(22-11-2016 07:19 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  I will just say that my experience has not been the same as yours, and nothing I claimed requires magic, nor did I make claims of miraculous bigotry evaporation, and the fact that you assume I am naive or disingenuous, and that those are the only possibilities says more about you than it does me. Like others have done, you are intentionally misrepresenting my positions. Implying my ideas requires supernatural forces is dishonest. One of us is being disingenuous, but it isn't me.

What you call "treating racists with kid-gloves", I would call the non-aggression principle. What you would call "forcing bad ideas out" I would call strengthening bad ideas by ideas through violence or threat of violence. You could make an argument that using violence or the threat of violence in the short-term would reduce violence in the long-term to such a degree that is more than off-sets the violence in the short-term, in addition to solving the problem of racism more efficiently than by leaving people alone. That might be a compelling argument, but I don't think there is any data to suggest that is the case.

As for the Jim Crowe laws, I think that is a poor example for you to make your case, because that is more in line with what you're suggesting than what I am in the sense that one forces people to do business in a way they don't want, and my way doesn't. The Jim Crowe laws are not compatible with free-markets or individual liberty. I believe racism was encouraged by Jim Crow Laws.

Okay, point me to some example of positive social change that hasn't been forced against the status quo's will. Where is one example of Jim Crow laws being fought EFFECTIVELY by the local communities? Why didn't the South correct Jim Crow by itself? Jim Crow is an excellent case because it shows that sometimes (I would argue, many times) market forces don't work to correct an injustice. ONE HUNDRED YEARS after the Civil War, and blacks were still treated as third-class citizens where they had once been slaves...that is not progress at a pace that Justice can tolerate.

There are plenty of positive changes that happen through social change. For example, we started becoming more environmentally conscience without being told that we weren't allowed to use plastic bags. Companies started developing biodegradable packaging even without government intervention. I'd say Jim Crow (apologies for earlier misspelling) caused more resentment than acted as a "compromise" law, it acted to retard real liberalism. Racists, I imagine, were more resentful and hateful than before, but we still made slow progress. Laws, such as the Civil Rights Act, would not have even been made possible to be enforced if it weren't for positive changes having already been made between the beginning of the Jim Crow era and it's end. As for "markets", I just want to be clear, "markets" are not, and should not be limited to purely financial markets. There is also a marketplace of ideas. Education and protest can be more powerful than pure financial punishment, but do not underestimate the power of money either, as money is a representation of buying power, which is a representation of power. No one wants to become a weak outcast who is regarded as ignorant by even those close to him/her.

In any case, I fully expect you to disagree with me, and I appreciate the thoughtfulness you put into your post, but I am pretty weary of the topic at hand after going back and forth with so many of you. I don't think I will change your mind or anyone else here, I don't think you'll change mine so I'm just going to take a break from it. I know you think I am probably think I am naive. I just don't care at the moment.

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