Jesus: Did People Needed Something More Human or More Humane...
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20-05-2016, 04:58 AM
RE: Jesus: Did People Needed Something More Human or More Humane...
(19-05-2016 08:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 08:07 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  Was god not enough, they needed something else to worship?

Jesus is God Yahweh Mickey Mouse. He just had to find out what physical pain and physical death Disneyland and Disneyworld are. How can someone be an exalted God Disney character and not know what physical pain Disneyland or death Disneyworld is?

Fixed it for ya!

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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20-05-2016, 05:49 AM (This post was last modified: 20-05-2016 05:53 AM by julep.)
RE: Jesus: Did People Needed Something More Human or More Humane...
(19-05-2016 08:07 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  Driving into Tulsa today I noticed yet another Jesus bumper sticker. Common as dirt here in Oklahoma. It got me to thinking, why did they make up Jesus? Was god not enough, they needed something else to worship? Or maybe god was too abstract an idea so they wanted something more human to relate to or maybe just something more humane?

Why do you think Jesus was invented?

Well, lots of historical figures considered themselves or were considered gods. Saying you're divine makes people more scared of you, more inclined to obey you, less inclined to question. The Jesus cult attached to a monotheistic religion at a time when people were starting to figure out that offerings to the god/s didn't correlate with outcomes, and as well starting to figure out naturalistic explanations of events that had been considered supernatural. The hand of god seemed to be withdrawing, so people started thinking of a more distant god. The questions start: why should I worship a god or support the god's priests, if god can't or won't end a drought or cure my sick baby when I sacrifice that goat?

Poses quite the problem. Jesus is the answer. The Jesus character, manufactured into a facet of god, provides a rationale for why god doesn't interact with humans in the present, but did in previous times. Jesus joins the present god of the Old Testament with the distant god of the philosophers--not perfectly, but close enough for jazz.

All of the old stories, where god gives victory in battle or sends manna from heaven so people won't starve, become examples of god's power that Christians are not to expect, as they are from before Jesus's time. The nature of god resets from AD 29.

Believers lose the mechanism for control of their physical circumstances. Jesus's sacrifice puts the emphasis on the afterlife. This also makes moot all of those pesky questions about why there aren't any miracles: the game has changed. Who cares if you have a miserable life, you'll have eternal bliss once it's over. But you must give your money to the church and be obedient, or you will have eternal torture.

Anyway, those are my theories: a combination of increases in scientific knowledge and Jesus's ties to monotheistic Judaism. And, of course, the consistent desire of people in authority to nourish social systems and philosophies which stress obedience to rulers and acceptance of one's circumstances, no matter how horrible.
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20-05-2016, 06:08 AM
RE: Jesus: Did People Needed Something More Human or More Humane...
(19-05-2016 09:03 PM)Dark Wanderer Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 08:57 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  Shocking

but, he's supposed to be god, all seeing, all knowing. He didn't know what pain and death was... not even after all those centuries before Jesus. Seriously?

God's a little slow.... Dodgy

Go easy on him. He still cries when he poops.

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20-05-2016, 06:31 AM
RE: Jesus: Did People Needed Something More Human or More Humane...
(19-05-2016 08:57 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 08:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  Jesus is God Yahweh. He just had to find out what physical pain and physical death are. How can someone be an exalted God and not know what physical pain or death is?

Shocking

but, he's supposed to be god, all seeing, all knowing. He didn't know what pain and death was... not even after all those centuries before Jesus. Seriously?

No. I knew a few Mormons back in high school and these two guys recently rung my doorbell, so I feel confident saying that Mormons believe that Jesus/god created the universe and everything in it, including pain, humiliation, torture and death. Of course the Mormon god couldn't gage how these things would feel to someone else, but he went ahead and subjected millions of people to these horrors anyway. Then, for purposes of his own self advancement, he worked up the courage to find out what it felt like to experience them himself firsthand.

And when he got here, he puffed up his chest and declared that he'd die for everyone and come right back because apparently everyone before him who had died a horrible, miserable death was just a whiny bitch.
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20-05-2016, 08:00 AM
RE: Jesus: Did People Needed Something More Human or More Humane...
(19-05-2016 08:07 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  Why do you think Jesus was invented?

I don't know a lot about the contemporary mystery cults, but from my understanding, early Christianity resembled a lot of these.

I see a transition from a religion based on military conquest to one of peace while the populous was under Roman occupation. That, and you see a shift from earthly rewards and punishment for righteousness and wickedness (which doesn't always happen) to a promise of this being reconciled in the afterlife.

I don't think Judaism was really cutting the mustard anymore. I mean, sure, it exists 2,000 years later, but it's barely a blip on the radar. While Christianity boasts something like 35% of the population as followers, I don't think Judaism even gets 1%. I know that a lot of that Christian growth had to do with Constantine and later conquests, but my point is, Judaism was, and remained a local religion largely pertaining to one group of people. Paul pushed for inclusion, and his version was the one that won out.
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20-05-2016, 08:28 AM
RE: Jesus: Did People Needed Something More Human or More Humane...
(20-05-2016 08:00 AM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 08:07 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  Why do you think Jesus was invented?

I don't know a lot about the contemporary mystery cults, but from my understanding, early Christianity resembled a lot of these.

I see a transition from a religion based on military conquest to one of peace while the populous was under Roman occupation. That, and you see a shift from earthly rewards and punishment for righteousness and wickedness (which doesn't always happen) to a promise of this being reconciled in the afterlife.

I don't think Judaism was really cutting the mustard anymore. I mean, sure, it exists 2,000 years later, but it's barely a blip on the radar. While Christianity boasts something like 35% of the population as followers, I don't think Judaism even gets 1%. I know that a lot of that Christian growth had to do with Constantine and later conquests, but my point is, Judaism was, and remained a local religion largely pertaining to one group of people. Paul pushed for inclusion, and his version was the one that won out.

You're right. We're less than 1% of the world's population. Even in diaspora nations where Jews are known to flock to, our populations are still less than 2%. Why should population size be an indication of success in a religion that doesn't proselytize and believes that they'll always be small anyway? ..."And you shall remain few in number among the nations to which G-d shall lead you" (Deut. 4:27).

Although it's very clear that Christianity is much larger than Judaism, I personally don't view that as a mark of success because measuring success by numbers presupposes that religions are all interested in marketing themselves. I don't think Paul's version won out because the Jews were never in the business of "winning souls" in the first place.

I agree with DLJ. The Romans liked some of the concepts in Judaism, but they weren't going to nip their tips for it. Christianity pulls in some Jewish ideas and presents it in a way that was appealing to Romans. Really, this religion was always primarily marketed to gentiles, not Jews.
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20-05-2016, 08:34 AM
RE: Jesus: Did People Needed Something More Human or More Humane...
(19-05-2016 08:07 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  Or maybe god was too abstract an idea so they wanted something more human to relate to or maybe just something more humane?

Why do you think Jesus was invented?

I think this is a big part of it - the fact that the Jesus story so closely mimics other savior stories with the virgin birth, resurrection, etc. is noteworthy too. But I think there's a lot to be said for giving people a human image to connect to. It's hard for us mere mortals to relate to the concept of a god smiting these people and blessing those in an often times capricious manner. But a flesh and blood person being crucified - that's an image we can connect to.
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20-05-2016, 08:53 AM
RE: Jesus: Did People Needed Something More Human or More Humane...
Perhaps they needed a better excuse machine, the good old forgivenesses and imperfect loop.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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20-05-2016, 12:21 PM
RE: Jesus: Did People Needed Something More Human or More Humane...
(20-05-2016 08:28 AM)Aliza Wrote:  I don't think Paul's version won out because the Jews were never in the business of "winning souls" in the first place.

The "won out" comment was in comparison to other versions of Christianity which didn't want to include the Gentiles. A lot of early Christians thought it should be for Jews only. If that were the case, it would likely be smaller than Judaism today.
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20-05-2016, 02:49 PM
RE: Jesus: Did People Needed Something More Human or More Humane...
(19-05-2016 08:57 PM)Heatheness Wrote:  
(19-05-2016 08:49 PM)Alla Wrote:  Jesus is God Yahweh. He just had to find out what physical pain and physical death are. How can someone be an exalted God and not know what physical pain or death is?

Shocking

but, he's supposed to be god, all seeing, all knowing. He didn't know what pain and death was... not even after all those centuries before Jesus. Seriously?
God the Father knew but not His Son Yahweh (Jesus in this life).
Only when God Son Yahweh was born here He had an opportunity to learn many things in His physical body.

English is my second language.
I AM DEPLORABLE AND IRREDEEMABLE
SHE PERSISTED WE RESISTED
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