Jesus Finds Philip (satire)
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12-12-2016, 06:28 AM
Jesus Finds Philip (satire)
I post this excerpt because it is relatively simple and easy to understand and is just plain humor, mocking Josephus, I believe there is no other way to explain this.

In Wars of the Jews, Book III, Chapter 10, Josephus is describing all the heroic acts of Vespasian, Titus and the Jewish rebels, it is really exciting page-turner stuff, but then all of a sudden he takes this long boring detour describing the land of Galilee and the only person mentioned at all in that long narrative is Philip. He only gets a couple of short mentions in Josephus and only a couple short mentions in the Gospels as well, but the ones in the Gospels seem to be making fun of those mentions in Josephus:

[Image: to68cvvem43y.png]

There we have two different passages from John and both seem to be making fun of that same passage of Josephus and both seem to be suggesting the same thing: Josephus writes too much and is very boring sometimes. In fact that is a common theme or interpretation from the book of John, that Josephus' writings are just way too long. Here is another example of that sentiment from the very end of John:

"This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony is true. And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen."
- John 21:24-25

That seems very ironic, especially in light of the other two passages from John suggesting that Josephus writes too much and is really boring. But also notice how the author of John speaks about himself in the third person: "this is the disciple which testifieth and we know that his testimony is true". Haha. It is just like Josephus, talking about himself in the third person. Mockery by imitation and exaggeration.

“And here we shall put an end to this our history; wherein we formerly promised to deliver the same with all accuracy, to such as should be desirous of understanding after what manner this war of the Romans with the Jews was managed. Of which history, how good the style is, must be left to the determination of the readers; but as for its agreement with the facts, I shall not scruple to say, and that boldly, that truth hath been what I have alone aimed at through its entire composition.”
– The Wars Of The Jews, Book VII 11:5
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12-12-2016, 09:37 AM
RE: Jesus Finds Philip (satire)
I'm trying to figure this out. You think that because the War with the Jews has a bit of a tedious description of Galilee, that the NT is written to satirise this writing style, because Phillip says "show us the Father, it sufficeth us". And you say this is "hilarious".

I'm not getting the humour of it. The only thing Atwill draws from this is that they are similar events in a similar sequence of events. If it's satire, I am afraid it's lost on me.
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12-12-2016, 02:07 PM
RE: Jesus Finds Philip (satire)
(12-12-2016 09:37 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I'm trying to figure this out. You think that because the War with the Jews has a bit of a tedious description of Galilee, that the NT is written to satirise this writing style, because Phillip says "show us the Father, it sufficeth us". And you say this is "hilarious".

I'm not getting the humour of it. The only thing Atwill draws from this is that they are similar events in a similar sequence of events. If it's satire, I am afraid it's lost on me.

First, I don't claim that the NT is satirizing his writing style, but his writing in general, sometimes style, sometimes storyline, sometimes the expressions he uses. In this particular case that passage of the NT is satirizing Josephus' verbosity and long boring landscape descriptions.

Ok, to understand the humor here, maybe it will help if I explain how I found it. I was specifically looking for more parallels to build on the list that Atwill presented. I saw that many of his parallels had even the same names of the characters, so I looked in the book of John and saw Philip, so I wondered if I could find a parallel to a guy named Philip in Josephus.

"“The day following Jesus would go forth into Galilee, and findeth Philip"

It turns out there are about 20 passages in Josephus that mention someone named Philip. So I said, ok, John tells us that Jesus found Philip in Galilee which Josephus also calls the land of Gennesareth. Gennesareth is mentioned about 5 times, but there is exactly one passage in Josephus that has a reference to both Gennesareth and Philip. So I looked up the passage and read through it, and it was a really long and boring read. So it turns out, I did exactly what Jesus did, I spent a whole day going through Josephus' description of Galilee before I found Philip. Jesus represents Josephus (I know this disagrees with what Atwill says about Titus being Jesus, but I can show you hundreds of parallels where it is Josephus, I will explain more later), Philip represents Philip and Galilee represents Galilee. It is pretty much the same story, one is just a short summary of the other with some exaggeration (I also exaggerated, it didn't really take me a whole day to read that passage;).
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