Jesus Lied
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28-11-2012, 07:26 PM
Jesus Lied
(28-11-2012 06:31 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Would you agree with me that inevitably they also do what they do for selfish reasons? They all have to earn a living, and they all enjoy being looked up to. Money and power. I they are the main forces that keeps the wheels turning. What do you think?

Hey Mark,
I'd agree that virtually everyone does what they do for selfish reasons. You're a doctor. I suspect you want to help people, but I'm sure the money and prestige aren't so bad either.

As to keeping the wheels turning, I don't think doing away with paid clergy makes Christianity go away. Your buddy Paul created a church hierarchy that doesn't need your money. He allegedly made tents to earn his way across the region, and suggested others be like him.

When I was a pastor, I did not believe I was being paid for services rendered. Instead, I was given money to support myself while I did ministry. Can you see the differentiation there? To an outsider it must seem like bullshit. A paycheck is still a paycheck, but at least in my case, I didn't see it that way. Also, I was not always full-time. In one church, I was an associate pastor for free. I had a day job and went to school and donated time to do "the Lord's work." I knew many guys who worked part time jobs in addition to church work. I had a mentor who was a full-time marriage and family therapist who also "donated" his time to the church.

The prestige is nice. I miss it sometimes. But it was extremely limited to a very small number of people, so it wasn't a big deal. More importantly, church leadership also went hand in hand with dealing with problems. People are political creatures and church politics are just as real as politics anywhere else, including online forums. So in no way does it rank anywhere close to the prestige a doctor or lawyer would have, for instance.

Still, I'm the poster child for putting too much trust into the pastor I had when I was a boy. But I also looked up to him at home, so why wouldn't I trust him on church matters as well? I saw my pastor close up, everyday. My dad was as sincere as sincere can be. I had no reason to doubt him. So it's true that even looking up to a good person doesn't mean you're doing that which is best. Smile

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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28-11-2012, 07:26 PM
Jesus Lied
(28-11-2012 06:55 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Who are you and what did you do with Eric?

Sorry. Had a sober moment there. Won't happen again, I promise. Big Grin

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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28-11-2012, 08:33 PM
RE: Jesus Lied
(28-11-2012 07:26 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(28-11-2012 06:31 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Would you agree with me that inevitably they also do what they do for selfish reasons? They all have to earn a living, and they all enjoy being looked up to. Money and power. I they are the main forces that keeps the wheels turning. What do you think?


Hey Mark,
I'd agree that virtually everyone does what they do for selfish reasons. You're a doctor. I suspect you want to help people, but I'm sure the money and prestige aren't so bad either.

As to keeping the wheels turning, I don't think doing away with paid clergy makes Christianity go away. Your buddy Paul created a church hierarchy that doesn't need your money. He allegedly made tents to earn his way across the region, and suggested others be like him.

When I was a pastor, I did not believe I was being paid for services rendered. Instead, I was given money to support myself while I did ministry. Can you see the differentiation there? To an outsider it must seem like bullshit. A paycheck is still a paycheck, but at least in my case, I didn't see it that way. Also, I was not always full-time. In one church, I was an associate pastor for free. I had a day job and went to school and donated time to do "the Lord's work." I knew many guys who worked part time jobs in addition to church work. I had a mentor who was a full-time marriage and family therapist who also "donated" his time to the church.

The prestige is nice. I miss it sometimes. But it was extremely limited to a very small number of people, so it wasn't a big deal. More importantly, church leadership also went hand in hand with dealing with problems. People are political creatures and church politics are just as real as politics anywhere else, including online forums. So in no way does it rank anywhere close to the prestige a doctor or lawyer would have, for instance.

Still, I'm the poster child for putting too much trust into the pastor I had when I was a boy. But I also looked up to him at home, so why wouldn't I trust him on church matters as well? I saw my pastor close up, everyday. My dad was as sincere as sincere can be. I had no reason to doubt him. So it's true that even looking up to a good person doesn't mean you're doing that which is best. Smile


Ok...I hear you. Thanks.

Looking back on your pastor days, do you think you did any good? I agree we all do things for selfish reasons...I enjoy the money I earn for example. Yet also at the end of a day at work I can say "I cut that skin cancer off, or I drained that abscess" etc, so i believe I've also helped people. I know your intentions were admirable, yet in retrospect, do you believe you ever genuinely helped anyone? My experiiences with pastors and priests is that while they may show sympathy (which does have some value) they rarely get their hands dirty by genuinely helping people.

When you say you got involved in church politics, what exactly do you mean? Petty squabbles?

BTW, our mate Paul didn't talk about a church hierarchy. The letters written in his name (but not by him) do. Paul was very much interested in his own power and prestige. He was a classic example of what I'm referring to. I don't think he ever actually did anything for anyone other than fill their heads with mumbo jumbo.
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28-11-2012, 08:57 PM
RE: Jesus Lied
(28-11-2012 08:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(28-11-2012 07:26 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Hey Mark,
I'd agree that virtually everyone does what they do for selfish reasons. You're a doctor. I suspect you want to help people, but I'm sure the money and prestige aren't so bad either.

As to keeping the wheels turning, I don't think doing away with paid clergy makes Christianity go away. Your buddy Paul created a church hierarchy that doesn't need your money. He allegedly made tents to earn his way across the region, and suggested others be like him.

When I was a pastor, I did not believe I was being paid for services rendered. Instead, I was given money to support myself while I did ministry. Can you see the differentiation there? To an outsider it must seem like bullshit. A paycheck is still a paycheck, but at least in my case, I didn't see it that way. Also, I was not always full-time. In one church, I was an associate pastor for free. I had a day job and went to school and donated time to do "the Lord's work." I knew many guys who worked part time jobs in addition to church work. I had a mentor who was a full-time marriage and family therapist who also "donated" his time to the church.

The prestige is nice. I miss it sometimes. But it was extremely limited to a very small number of people, so it wasn't a big deal. More importantly, church leadership also went hand in hand with dealing with problems. People are political creatures and church politics are just as real as politics anywhere else, including online forums. So in no way does it rank anywhere close to the prestige a doctor or lawyer would have, for instance.

Still, I'm the poster child for putting too much trust into the pastor I had when I was a boy. But I also looked up to him at home, so why wouldn't I trust him on church matters as well? I saw my pastor close up, everyday. My dad was as sincere as sincere can be. I had no reason to doubt him. So it's true that even looking up to a good person doesn't mean you're doing that which is best. Smile


Ok...I hear you. Thanks.

Looking back on your pastor days, do you think you did any good? I agree we all do things for selfish reasons...I enjoy the money I earn for example. Yet also at the end of a day at work I can say "I cut that skin cancer off, or I drained that abscess" etc, so i believe I've also helped people. I know your intentions were admirable, yet in retrospect, do you believe you ever genuinely helped anyone? My experiiences with pastors and priests is that while they may show sympathy (which does have some value) they rarely get their hands dirty by genuinely helping people.

When you say you got involved in church politics, what exactly do you mean? Petty squabbles?

BTW, our mate Paul didn't talk about a church hierarchy. The letters written in his name (but not by him) do. Paul was very much interested in his own power and prestige. He was a classic example of what I'm referring to. I don't think he ever actually did anything for anyone other than fill their heads with mumbo jumbo.
As far as "helping people," I'd think there were some times that I did some good. There were people fed and clothed who might not have been otherwise. There were marriages that stayed together (I think that's a good thing). There were marriages that didn't stay together, but I was able to help them end amicably in a couple of situations. There were kids and elderly and disabled who felt neglected and uncared for by their own families and in spending time with them, I think they felt appreciated. There were widows and widowers comforted in times of sorrow. There was at least one saved from committing suicide (so they said). But overall, sure, it was mostly filling people's heads with mumbo jumbo. But at the time, I thought it was life-saving advice so I thought it was as equal to cutting off a cancer...a cancer of sin. Big Grin


By church politics, I guess I mean petty squabbles. People who think things should go their way. Other people wanting to do new, innovative things while others want things to stay the way they were when their grandpappy started that church. But I see those sorts of things happening at my workplace now and I even see it happen here on TTA at times. One for instance: At the church I spent 8 years at, the first 4 years were as the youth pastor and the next 4 were as the head pastor. There were some folks in the congregation who never were able to see me as the leader because they had known me so long as the youth pastor. So even though I made a lot of hospital and nursing home visits to the elderly, and basically only spent time with older adults, I was accused of catering to the needs of the youth while neglecting the older folks. Other examples would be one group of people complaining that the music with guitars and drums were too loud and inappropriate in church. Other people hated the organ music and the choir. The church almost split down the middle when we installed new carpeting in the fellowship hall. Just silly stuff, mostly. Smile

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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29-11-2012, 01:29 AM
RE: Jesus Lied
(28-11-2012 08:57 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  
(28-11-2012 08:33 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Ok...I hear you. Thanks.

Looking back on your pastor days, do you think you did any good? I agree we all do things for selfish reasons...I enjoy the money I earn for example. Yet also at the end of a day at work I can say "I cut that skin cancer off, or I drained that abscess" etc, so i believe I've also helped people. I know your intentions were admirable, yet in retrospect, do you believe you ever genuinely helped anyone? My experiiences with pastors and priests is that while they may show sympathy (which does have some value) they rarely get their hands dirty by genuinely helping people.

When you say you got involved in church politics, what exactly do you mean? Petty squabbles?

BTW, our mate Paul didn't talk about a church hierarchy. The letters written in his name (but not by him) do. Paul was very much interested in his own power and prestige. He was a classic example of what I'm referring to. I don't think he ever actually did anything for anyone other than fill their heads with mumbo jumbo.
As far as "helping people," I'd think there were some times that I did some good. There were people fed and clothed who might not have been otherwise. There were marriages that stayed together (I think that's a good thing). There were marriages that didn't stay together, but I was able to help them end amicably in a couple of situations. There were kids and elderly and disabled who felt neglected and uncared for by their own families and in spending time with them, I think they felt appreciated. There were widows and widowers comforted in times of sorrow. There was at least one saved from committing suicide (so they said). But overall, sure, it was mostly filling people's heads with mumbo jumbo. But at the time, I thought it was life-saving advice so I thought it was as equal to cutting off a cancer...a cancer of sin. Big Grin


By church politics, I guess I mean petty squabbles. People who think things should go their way. Other people wanting to do new, innovative things while others want things to stay the way they were when their grandpappy started that church. But I see those sorts of things happening at my workplace now and I even see it happen here on TTA at times. One for instance: At the church I spent 8 years at, the first 4 years were as the youth pastor and the next 4 were as the head pastor. There were some folks in the congregation who never were able to see me as the leader because they had known me so long as the youth pastor. So even though I made a lot of hospital and nursing home visits to the elderly, and basically only spent time with older adults, I was accused of catering to the needs of the youth while neglecting the older folks. Other examples would be one group of people complaining that the music with guitars and drums were too loud and inappropriate in church. Other people hated the organ music and the choir. The church almost split down the middle when we installed new carpeting in the fellowship hall. Just silly stuff, mostly. Smile
Hey thanks for sharing your thoughts
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29-11-2012, 01:33 AM
RE: Jesus Lied
Fucking Jesus... I knew the prick was lieing.

That damn bastard child has done it again!

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire
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29-11-2012, 04:36 AM
RE: Jesus Lied
I heard it referred to recently as a 'shelf' in your mind. When I was 9 years old I prayed fervently about my parents being separated. I took it really hard and I was certain that God would fix things. After some time it became obvious that he wasn't fixing things. I became deeply depressed and literally cried myself to sleep every night. I physically felt so cold some nights that I would lay between the mattress bed and box springs to feel calm enough to sleep. I wonder now if I was wishing I'd never been born? I figured that God knew I was distraught but surely he had a plan... I just couldn't see it! My tactics changed. I placed a penny face up on the chest-of-drawers in my room and asked God, from the bottom of my 9 year old heart, to flip the coin and show me that he's there and has a plan for me. I rationalized with God that no movement of mountains was needed, a penny would suffice. I checked the coin... still face up. A simple task but God's prolly a busy guy so I checked the following morning. After school. After church. All the while I prayed until that penny became my replacement for prayer. If it wasn't flipped then no further praying necessary. I put the lamp over it and would just check it from time to time. It was a bitter pill for me then and the pain I internalized affected me greatly, but after a while I forgot about the penny and praying.

This private story of my life was like a book of experience written in my mind but conveniently tucked away on the shelf and eventually forgotten about. As long as I could put enough 'books' of opposite thinking around it, it became less and less significant. This shelf in my head is what you refer as compartmentalization me thinks. I guess later I would think about it and pass it off as 9 year old immaturity. It took 25 years to finally accept that experience and read it for what it really was.

What disturbs me now is how the rest of my family has put me on that shelf and pushed it to the back of the stack only to rarely if ever read. What about your family Erx? How did they handle such a change and do they still love you the same?
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29-11-2012, 11:00 AM
RE: Jesus Lied
(28-11-2012 01:24 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  As I reflect upon my lifetime of loving Jesus, I realize there are a lot of things that have to be compartmentalized by the Believer.

Things like believing in miracles even though you can't think of one example that can't be explained by natural causes.

Things like believing the events in the bible happened, even though there is not one shred of archaeological evidence for anything that happened in the Old Testament until after 1000 BCE and very little NT evidence as well.

Things like believing the Bible is the inspired word of God, even though it can be definitively shown that it was written and copied and transmitted solely by people with an agenda over several centuries and continents.

But there is something that always bothered me as a Christian. I remember the experience of feeling my cognitive dissonance when I tried to make sense of what Jesus had to say about prayer, and how it almost never jives with reality.

Reading this article today, opened my memories to all the energy I used to put into rationalizing and explaining how the Bible, which teaches that prayer will always be answered, never seems to actually translate into reality. The rationalization comes in phrases like,
"If prayer doesn't get answered...
... you must not have enough faith;
... you aren't asking in accordance with God's will;
... sometimes God says yes, sometimes God says no, sometimes God says wait (does anyone have a scriptural reference for this?)"

Here's a brief article showing how Jesus lied when he spoke about prayer.

Jesus Lied

Quote:Jesus is quoted many times in the Bible saying that a believer can ask for anything through prayer and receive it. He even goes so far as to say that mountains and trees can be thrown into the sea simply by praying for it. This is clearly a lie, and can be proven to be a lie by any believer. Simply pray for me to be converted to Christianity right away. Or better yet ask God to move the mountains behind my house. He could make a lot of converts that way. If I’m converted today, I’ll post a public apology on my web site and devote my life to kissing God’s ass. If I’m not converted it would only be fair for you to apologize and devote your life to kissing my butt.

Let the blood-letting begin!
The rationale that used to excuse the non-answered prayers for me was that God doesn't always answer your prayers in the way that you expect. He knows better what is best for you and sometimes answers your prayers differently; but they are always answered.

Sigh! Confused Anyone got a shovel? There's a whole lot of manure in that thinking!

I distinctly remember my first girlfriend who was Jewish while I was Catholic. I was still a believer at the time and thought I might marry her one day. Praying the Rosary is supposed to be one of the most powerful forms of prayer so I actually learned how to pray it for her. There was a special novena that consisted of 40 days (if I remember correctly) of praying and each daily Rosary session took about 30-40 minutes. This is what I did to ask God to convert her to Catholicism. First off, what an ignorant fool I was to assume my religion was better! Second, did all that praying work? No. Did it affect my faith? No, because I rationalized by the thought process in the first paragraph and thought, if not that, then maybe she wasn't to be my wife, but would some day convert eventually anyway. Well, she's not my wife as it turns out and last I knew from a friend who is still in touch with her, she's still Jewish. Thanks a lot Gawd! Thumbsup Rolleyes

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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29-11-2012, 12:23 PM
RE: Jesus Lied
(29-11-2012 04:36 AM)Grassy Knoll Wrote:  I heard it referred to recently as a 'shelf' in your mind. When I was 9 years old I prayed fervently about my parents being separated. I took it really hard and I was certain that God would fix things. After some time it became obvious that he wasn't fixing things. I became deeply depressed and literally cried myself to sleep every night. I physically felt so cold some nights that I would lay between the mattress bed and box springs to feel calm enough to sleep. I wonder now if I was wishing I'd never been born? I figured that God knew I was distraught but surely he had a plan... I just couldn't see it! My tactics changed. I placed a penny face up on the chest-of-drawers in my room and asked God, from the bottom of my 9 year old heart, to flip the coin and show me that he's there and has a plan for me. I rationalized with God that no movement of mountains was needed, a penny would suffice. I checked the coin... still face up. A simple task but God's prolly a busy guy so I checked the following morning. After school. After church. All the while I prayed until that penny became my replacement for prayer. If it wasn't flipped then no further praying necessary. I put the lamp over it and would just check it from time to time. It was a bitter pill for me then and the pain I internalized affected me greatly, but after a while I forgot about the penny and praying.

This private story of my life was like a book of experience written in my mind but conveniently tucked away on the shelf and eventually forgotten about. As long as I could put enough 'books' of opposite thinking around it, it became less and less significant. This shelf in my head is what you refer as compartmentalization me thinks. I guess later I would think about it and pass it off as 9 year old immaturity. It took 25 years to finally accept that experience and read it for what it really was.

What disturbs me now is how the rest of my family has put me on that shelf and pushed it to the back of the stack only to rarely if ever read. What about your family Erx? How did they handle such a change and do they still love you the same?


Yeah, putting stuff on a shelf is a good analogy. Maybe it's kind of like this: The Christian me buys a book that tells me that Intelligent Design has all sorts of "scientific support." Since I'm not very literate in the sciences, I probably won't read very much of the book, but I'll be reassured that the Lord has given the author the information needed to show The Truth. So I put the book on the shelf. Whenever I have doubts about the reality of ID, I can look at the bookshelf and again be reassured that someone has the argument under control so I dont' have to worry about learning about it for myself.
As for how my family has treated me, I've not used the "A" word with them to describe myself. They know I won't go to church or pray or have any "spiritual" discussions and that's enough for me. Most of my friends, I've pushed away, not because they wouldn't accept me as an atheist, but because I've decided that I don't want to be around them if they're going to be spontaneoulsy slipping into God-speak.
At first I was afraid of what people would think if I came out as an atheist. Eventually, I've come to realize that I can't actually think of anyone who would reject me for leaving the Faith. But I just don't care enough anymore to try to explain why I no longer believe and if I label myself as an atheist, I'll have a lot of 'splainin' to do. So I've become a Complacentist. I'm complacent about my Post-Jesus Life. Drinking Beverage

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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29-11-2012, 01:08 PM
RE: Jesus Lied
The thing with prayer is people pray so fucking often, for like EVERYTHING, but it's always every day shit.
"Please god, let me not crash my car on the way to work tomorrow"
They then don't crash their car and hand it down to God for getting them to work because they prayed the night before and so continue to prayer for retarded shit and the cycle continues.

Nobody every prays for something worth praying for, solve world hungry, world peace, make me a billionaire etc... because deep down they must know that that shit will never fly. Perhaps even deep down they know prayer is such a load of dog poo?

It's fucking retarded.

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