Jesus Lied
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29-11-2012, 03:31 PM
 
RE: Jesus Lied
Those scriptures are meant to illustrate you, spiritually, not offer any promises. Read them more closely with the following phrase in mind: "If Jesus is telling the truth, then what's wrong with this picture."

1) And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you
have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree,
but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it
will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."
(Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)

In other words, we are supposed to examine the fact that we don't actually have that kind of faith and then ask ourselves why we don't, and that is what leads to the deeper truth about us and God.

2) Ask and it will be given to you;
seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone
who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the
door will be opened.
(Matthew 7:7-8 NAB)

In this passage, he's talking about the revelation of the Son of God, of Christ. The opperative terms to concentrate on I have bolded. Notice how this excludes those who do not have the right heart. The self-righteous will not do that. The atheist will not do that.

3) Again I say to you, that if two of you
agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My
Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My
name
, I am there in their midst.
(Matthew 18:19-20 NAS)

The purpose of this passage is to get us asking ourselves, what does it mean to do something in Jesus Christ's name? Seriously, what does that mean?

The Gospels are unique in that they say what needs to be said to affect a change in the reader. Don't read them like a history book or a contract, read them as a document that upon your reading and understanding will change you at your very core. That's what salvation is.
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29-11-2012, 03:37 PM
RE: Jesus Lied
I paid a guy to illustrate me once. He drew me with a giant head and a wee little tiny body with bulging biceps and a surfboard. It was pretty cool.

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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29-11-2012, 06:21 PM
RE: Jesus Lied
(29-11-2012 03:31 PM)Egor Wrote:  Those scriptures are meant to illustrate you, spiritually, not offer any promises. Read them more closely with the following phrase in mind: "If Jesus is telling the truth, then what's wrong with this picture."

Where are the footnotes in the Bible that says these are illustrations and not promises? Did I miss an asterisk? Don't you see what you've just done there? Why do I have to ask myself, "If Jesus is telling the truth, what's wrong?" It's more reasonable to suspect that Jesus was not telling the truth.


Quote:1) And Jesus answered and said to them, "Truly I say to you, if you
have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree,
but even if you say to this mountain, `Be taken up and cast into the sea,' it
will happen. "And all things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive."
(Matthew 21:21-22 NAS)

In other words, we are supposed to examine the fact that we don't actually have that kind of faith and then ask ourselves why we don't, and that is what leads to the deeper truth about us and God.

Again, you've created a rationalization that is not itself in the text. I examine this verse and come up with the answer that a Mustard Seed is a very tiny seed. Therefore, Jesus is actually saying it really doesn't take a lot of faith. In fact, you could have just a speck faith, like the amount in a mustard seed. I'd say in my lifetime, my faith was the size of a coconut. Certainly bigger than a mustard seed. Have received answers to prayer that could not otherwise be explained by natural causes?


Quote:2) Ask and it will be given to you;
seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone
who asks, receives; and the one who seeks, finds; and to the one who knocks, the
door will be opened.
(Matthew 7:7-8 NAB)

In this passage, he's talking about the revelation of the Son of God, of Christ. The opperative terms to concentrate on I have bolded. Notice how this excludes those who do not have the right heart. The self-righteous will not do that. The atheist will not do that.

Again, you are, on your own, creating a footnote to something that is not in the text. Nothing in the surrounding passage has anything to do with the revelation of the Son of God.

9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The context in the surrounding verses is to ask God for gifts, like a child asks his father for a fish or bread. What have you asked for that you received and cannot be explained by natural causes?
BTW, I was neither self-righteous nor an atheist for 40 years, and I did not receive anything that ultimately I couldn't have gotten on my own.


Quote:3) Again I say to you, that if two of you
agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My
Father who is in heaven. For where two or three have gathered together in My
name
, I am there in their midst.
(Matthew 18:19-20 NAS)

The purpose of this passage is to get us asking ourselves, what does it mean to do something in Jesus Christ's name? Seriously, what does that mean?

To do something in the name of someone is to be that person's messenger, their avatar, if you will. So if I am to do something in Jesus' name, I'm doing it as a representative for my liege. If I'm representing my Lord, I am to speak things he would speak and do things he would do. In 40 years, you can imagine I've prayed plenty a prayer with 2 or 3 other gathered in his name. Again, what have you prayed for that couldn't be explained by taking God out of the equation?

Quote:The Gospels are unique in that they say what needs to be said to affect a change in the reader. Don't read them like a history book or a contract, read them as a document that upon your reading and understanding will change you at your very core. That's what salvation is.

I agree with you that the genre of gospels provides us with unique documents. We don't have just 4 gospels, by the way. However, there isn't anything in the 4 Gospels that says, "Jesus didn't really mean what he said, so ask your pastor to learn what he really meant." There are parables, which have obvious analogies relating to concepts. But none of these sayings appear within a parable. They are teachings that Jesus reportedly said. If he didn't mean we would receive when we pray in his name, then he lied and should have chosen his words more carefully. Big Grin

Was it CS Lewis who said that Jesus was either the Son of God, Devilspawn, or he was a lunatic on the level of a man who claims he is a poached egg? Since he was wrong about prayer, we can rule out Son of God.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
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29-11-2012, 06:24 PM
RE: Jesus Lied
No, Erx. He lied when he said he'd be coming back. Drinking Beverage

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29-11-2012, 06:33 PM
RE: Jesus Lied
(28-11-2012 01:24 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  Jesus Lied

Quote:Jesus is quoted many times in the Bible saying that a believer can ask for anything through prayer and receive it. He even goes so far as to say that mountains and trees can be thrown into the sea simply by praying for it. This is clearly a lie, and can be proven to be a lie by any believer. Simply pray for me to be converted to Christianity right away. Or better yet ask God to move the mountains behind my house. He could make a lot of converts that way. If I’m converted today, I’ll post a public apology on my web site and devote my life to kissing God’s ass. If I’m not converted it would only be fair for you to apologize and devote your life to kissing my butt.
This passage was what started my de-conversion. This is blatantly untrue, and even worse is when Jesus says that it could be done with "faith the size of a mustard seed" (the smallest seed known at the time). So it doesn't take a lot of faith, is what Jesus is obviously saying. I've had people argue that a mustard seed is a huge amount, given that faith doesn't take up physical space, but that's just excusing it away into irrelevance (like when people argue that "a thousand years is like a second" to make Jesus' time predictions irrelevant).

I did, in fact, test this by trying to get a table to move. It stubbornly obeyed the laws of physics instead. And at that point, I still had a tremendous amount of faith. You can imagine how crushing it was when I couldn't move an object that was a fraction of a mountain's size. After that I realized how infrequently mountains moved, despite the amount of faithful believers in the world.


Here's another funny fact about Jesus: he made a very illogical comparison. He said that the lilies of the field were dressed in the finest colors, finer even than the best clothes of Solomon, and said "how much more will Jesus make the effort to clothe you"? Think about it... Solomon was, even in this analogy, a better dressed man than his peers. So in the comparison of "best dressed":

You > lilies > Solomon > You

This doesn't work.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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29-11-2012, 06:36 PM
RE: Jesus Lied
(29-11-2012 06:21 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  9 “Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

The context in the surrounding verses is to ask God for gifts, like a child asks his father for a fish or bread. What have you asked for that you received and cannot be explained by natural causes?
BTW, I was neither self-righteous nor an atheist for 40 years, and I did not receive anything that ultimately I couldn't have gotten on my own.

You know what Jesus got when he asked for "this cup to be taken from me" (to be spared from the crucifixion)? A stone. Does that, by God's logic here, make him "evil"?

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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30-11-2012, 07:03 AM
RE: Jesus Lied
I remember hearing analysis of miracles certified by the catholic church and how unconvincing they ended up being. I thought at the time - well, that's really what you'd expect from idolitors like that. You can't expect to go to some sacred site and be healed or to be healed after praying to a "saint" instead of to Jesus...
but I totally believed the missionaries who came back from Africa claiming to have seen eyes regenerated over night have having literally been missing for years. Those miracles were totally real.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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30-11-2012, 09:13 AM
RE: Jesus Lied
(29-11-2012 03:31 PM)Egor Wrote:  In other words, we are supposed to examine the fact that we don't actually have that kind of faith and then ask ourselves why we don't, and that is what leads to the deeper truth about us and God.
Ohmy
You said something very intelligent here, but missed the point entirely.

Yes, why don't people have that kind of faith...? Because there is no god to have that kind of faith in, that's why. And that is the deeper truth about us and God that the question leads to.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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