Jesus>Religion
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17-01-2012, 05:52 PM
RE: Jesus>Religion
Part of me almost just engaged in ad hominem because I think there is so much wrong with this guy on so many levels but simply addressing what he said he's dead wrong and an asshole.

People don't commit suicide out of some revenge factor or for the hell of it like he implies. They do it because they feel like there is no hope for life getting any better.

Just because he also feels that we have a part of ourselves that wants to be an exclutionist asshole doesn't mean that it's true. Nor does it mean that it's a good thing or should be tolerated. If we followed his advice on this one we would still have slavery, no women's rights, anti-gay hate, etc. The very same criticisms he aims at religion. *gasp

AA has never been about discussing topics in any kind of mature or meaningful manner. I think he's obnoxious and totally wrong on the vast majority of things he states. Please stop linking to his videos. He doesn't deserve the hits. He actually makes his living off youtube. Just pull the plug.
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17-01-2012, 06:49 PM
RE: Jesus>Religion
Realizing that suicide can indeed be rooted in a low self-esteem level / fear is one thing.

Using that realization to call them out as cowards (after death or for those that attempt suicide) can only serve to damage the self-esteem further of those that are alive. Calling suicide cowardly is itself a form of bullying. In regards to fear, Iā€™d be afraid of life too if I was bullied daily, not accepted by those closest to me, ostracized from my family, and beaten by my father. Most often, those that are scared of life have been made fearful by life, so their fear is warranted.

It is not a lightly-made decision. It is almost always not out of revenge.

It is often a response of someone that has been hated or ignored and feels like it's the only way they'll be heard or escape life, which has not been good to them.

"Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes like this, or he doesn't care to, or he doesn't exist. God is either impotent, evil, or imaginary. Take your pick, and choose wisely." ā€” Sam Harris

"There is no goddamn god, goddamn it."
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17-01-2012, 07:18 PM (This post was last modified: 17-01-2012 08:07 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Jesus>Religion
(16-01-2012 09:04 PM)w0rmwood Wrote:  Jesus and religion are inseparable. Any attempt to do so is either purposely disingenuous or (perhaps innocently) delusional.

Bullshit. Just because I don't believe in Christianity or religion or a postmortem preservation of identity don't mean I don't revisit the Red Letters for inspiration on an as needed basis.

(16-01-2012 09:04 PM)w0rmwood Wrote:  I know because I once felt I could separate the two, but you cannot and at the same time believe the Bible fully.

Don't see why I need to believe in the Bible or Christianity or any religion at all in order to get value and inspiration from the Red Letters. It'd be like saying I can't get value and inspiration from T.S. Eliot.

(17-01-2012 12:18 AM)ElectricEthan Wrote:  People who commit suicide are pussies.
(17-01-2012 04:54 PM)w0rmwood Wrote:  To call suicide cowardly is to not understand the gravity of the situation. It is at its very least, an unintelligent assessment of a psychological problem.
(17-01-2012 05:52 PM)Godless Wrote:  People don't commit suicide out of some revenge factor or for the hell of it like he implies. They do it because they feel like there is no hope for life getting any better.
(17-01-2012 06:49 PM)w0rmwood Wrote:  It is often a response of someone that has been hated or ignored and feels like it's the only way they'll be heard or escape life, which has not been good to them.

If you have never seriously and rationally considered suicide yourself, you should just shut the fuck up because you have no fucking clue as to what you're talking about.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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17-01-2012, 08:47 PM
RE: Jesus>Religion
I was trying to get you to see that even if he says something you don't agree with, the point he makes in a completely separate video is still relevant. You're going to dismiss any valid arguments he makes because he made a bullshit comment about a gay teen suicide?

For the record, no I don't think people who commit suicide are pussies. I, as many atheists probably do, think about it seriously at one point or another.
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17-01-2012, 09:04 PM
RE: Jesus>Religion
(17-01-2012 08:47 PM)ElectricEthan Wrote:  For the record, no I don't think people who commit suicide are pussies. I, as many atheists probably do, think about it seriously at one point or another.

I don't see it as an atheist thing, I see it as a human thing. How could I fully appreciate being without fully considering not being.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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17-01-2012, 09:23 PM (This post was last modified: 17-01-2012 09:30 PM by w0rmwood.)
RE: Jesus>Religion
I should have said that the belief in Jesus and religion are inseparable. Sure you can grab inspiration from his words on an as-needed basis, but I'd argue that it is never needed. You can get valuable things from religion, many of them. There are certain ideas preached in all of them that are positive. I still think that they are not a source of these ideas and that religion is wholly unnecessary and does far more harm than good. We'd be better without it altogether. Feel free to grab ideas from religion and philosophy. I enjoy some of the ideas in Zen Buddhism.

I framed my statement wrong by not saying "belief in Jesus".

Regardless of whether or not I have seriously contemplated suicide (I've had my moments, but I don't know how serious I was, because I never tried, though I've felt psychologically like I've gotten to points where I wouldn't mind if I purposely tried to fall asleep while driving or take 10 times too much pain medication or drive off a cliff instead of continuing around a curve), I don't have to shut the fuck up about anything.

I've had one family member and one close friend's family member commit suicide. I've seen things, read things, often suicide stories where what I've said has been true. I'm not saying it describes every story. But please, oh please show me your goddamn credentials for being an expert on suicide, since I'm so unqualified to speak about it.

Forgive me if I generalized too much by saying "it is often a response", but I will not shut the fuck up, even when I'm wrong.

Don't waste your fucking time trying to silence me, especially when I'm giving an opinion in a relatively calm, civil, and collected way. It's fine if you want to explain how I'm wrong in detail and provide information. I'm willing to listen, but until then you're just a bunch of noise.
(17-01-2012 08:47 PM)ElectricEthan Wrote:  I was trying to get you to see that even if he says something you don't agree with, the point he makes in a completely separate video is still relevant. You're going to dismiss any valid arguments he makes because he made a bullshit comment about a gay teen suicide?

For the record, no I don't think people who commit suicide are pussies. I, as many atheists probably do, think about it seriously at one point or another.

Not only that but he's generally an asshole. An asshole that only hurts atheism. His arguments are invalid when he's that much of a dick. Someone else can step up and make supposedly "valid" arguments in his place. When they do, link their video instead. A comment about said suicide is extremely telling of his character, one which I think invalidates any reason to listen to further drivel.

"Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes like this, or he doesn't care to, or he doesn't exist. God is either impotent, evil, or imaginary. Take your pick, and choose wisely." ā€” Sam Harris

"There is no goddamn god, goddamn it."
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17-01-2012, 09:40 PM
RE: Jesus>Religion
(17-01-2012 09:04 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(17-01-2012 08:47 PM)ElectricEthan Wrote:  For the record, no I don't think people who commit suicide are pussies. I, as many atheists probably do, think about it seriously at one point or another.

I don't see it as an atheist thing, I see it as a human thing. How could I fully appreciate being without fully considering not being.

I contemplated suicide seriously when I was Christian several times, but I haven't done it once since I deconverted.
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17-01-2012, 10:33 PM
RE: Jesus>Religion
(17-01-2012 09:40 PM)Ben Wrote:  I contemplated suicide seriously when I was Christian several times, but I haven't done it once since I deconverted.

Don't matter what you were when. Serious, rational consideration is both necessary and sufficient.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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18-01-2012, 01:52 AM
RE: Jesus>Religion
(17-01-2012 09:40 PM)Ben Wrote:  
(17-01-2012 09:04 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(17-01-2012 08:47 PM)ElectricEthan Wrote:  For the record, no I don't think people who commit suicide are pussies. I, as many atheists probably do, think about it seriously at one point or another.

I don't see it as an atheist thing, I see it as a human thing. How could I fully appreciate being without fully considering not being.

I contemplated suicide seriously when I was Christian several times, but I haven't done it once since I deconverted.

That's an ugly road to be on... I've been there myself... but the realization for me as an Atheist was... If I end it... it's over... there will be no afterlife.. no hell.. nothing.. it's just over period.. in the end I wasn't done with life yet.. Would have been a waste if I pulled a trigger on this very unique and very rare existance of being who I am. While the events of my life havn't been the most favorable .. It's still a wonderful thing to even exist and to think about who I am.. who we are... what the universe is... and accepting the fact of just how small and insignificant I am as an individual.. how insignificant we are as a species in this hugh universe containing things we will never get to see or learn about in our lifetime. But while we are here... let's make the best of it.

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. -- Voltaire
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18-01-2012, 05:30 AM
RE: Jesus>Religion
(17-01-2012 12:18 AM)ElectricEthan Wrote:  People who commit suicide are pussies.
(17-01-2012 04:54 PM)w0rmwood Wrote:  To call suicide cowardly is to not understand the gravity of the situation. It is at its very least, an unintelligent assessment of a psychological problem.
(17-01-2012 05:52 PM)Godless Wrote:  People don't commit suicide out of some revenge factor or for the hell of it like he implies. They do it because they feel like there is no hope for life getting any better.
(17-01-2012 06:49 PM)w0rmwood Wrote:  It is often a response of someone that has been hated or ignored and feels like it's the only way they'll be heard or escape life, which has not been good to them.

If you have never seriously and rationally considered suicide yourself, you should just shut the fuck up because you have no fucking clue as to what you're talking about.
[/quote]

I have every clue what I"m going on about thanks. I wouldn't talk about such a serious subject if I had not at some point gone through this stuff myself.

That and don't tell people to stfu unless you know for a fact that they have no clue.
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