Jesus, Yeshua, Joshua, and Isaiah are "essentially" the same thing
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31-03-2013, 02:12 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2013 07:08 PM by Doctor X.)
RE: Jesus, Yeshua, Joshua, and Isaiah are "essentially" the same thing
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01-04-2013, 07:08 AM
RE: Jesus, Yeshua, Joshua, and Isaiah are "essentially" the same thing
Quote:Perhaps you ought to take notice that not one of these names is used of Jesus except long after his death. Sure, there's a passage of scripture that says "he shall be called Emmanuel" of the unborn Jesus, but he wasn't called Emmanuel -- he was called Jesus. There is literally not a single reference of him actually *being called* Emmanuel. Nor did anyone (in the bible) call him Prince of Peace, God (mighty or otherwise), or Everlasting Father (in fact, I'm pretty sure even current Christians avoid calling Jesus 'the Father').

You also note that Jesus was called these things in the OT, but that's only if you presume that it was speaking of Jesus. The fact that the Messiah would be called "Prince and King" but was factually called neither of these things (because he wasn't either of those things) suggest that the OT scriptures were not referring to Jesus at all.

I understand your point. What method of Bible interpretation or what in the passage in Isaiah 9 indicates that the names had to be applied to Jesus immediately rather than later? Jesus Himself was born nearly seven centuries after Isaiah if you take a conservative dating and three or four centuries later if you take a liberal date for the prophecy.

And then we can see that other Jews including Bar Kochba have never been called these things. No, this is one of hundreds of fulfilled prophecies. Note how BB dodges by stating Jesus didn't yet fulfill His Millennial Kingdom prophecies (again, why do all the prophecies have to be fulfilled on YOUR expected timeline, BB, what are the biblical reasons for such fulfillment) and ignores that many prophecies Christ already fulfilled.

Everything, of course, hinges on resurrection. A resurrected Christ would return to usher in a kingdom and also be the guarantor that Heaven, Hell and accountability with Jesus are reality.
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01-04-2013, 08:20 AM (This post was last modified: 02-04-2013 04:38 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus, Yeshua, Joshua, and Isaiah are "essentially" the same thing
(01-04-2013 07:08 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Perhaps you ought to take notice that not one of these names is used of Jesus except long after his death. Sure, there's a passage of scripture that says "he shall be called Emmanuel" of the unborn Jesus, but he wasn't called Emmanuel -- he was called Jesus. There is literally not a single reference of him actually *being called* Emmanuel. Nor did anyone (in the bible) call him Prince of Peace, God (mighty or otherwise), or Everlasting Father (in fact, I'm pretty sure even current Christians avoid calling Jesus 'the Father').

You also note that Jesus was called these things in the OT, but that's only if you presume that it was speaking of Jesus. The fact that the Messiah would be called "Prince and King" but was factually called neither of these things (because he wasn't either of those things) suggest that the OT scriptures were not referring to Jesus at all.

I understand your point. What method of Bible interpretation or what in the passage in Isaiah 9 indicates that the names had to be applied to Jesus immediately rather than later? Jesus Himself was born nearly seven centuries after Isaiah if you take a conservative dating and three or four centuries later if you take a liberal date for the prophecy.

And then we can see that other Jews including Bar Kochba have never been called these things. No, this is one of hundreds of fulfilled prophecies. Note how BB dodges by stating Jesus didn't yet fulfill His Millennial Kingdom prophecies (again, why do all the prophecies have to be fulfilled on YOUR expected timeline, BB, what are the biblical reasons for such fulfillment) and ignores that many prophecies Christ already fulfilled.

Everything, of course, hinges on resurrection. A resurrected Christ would return to usher in a kingdom and also be the guarantor that Heaven, Hell and accountability with Jesus are reality.

None of them make a whit of difference. I'm not going down your fallacious rabbit hole. Soothsaying was forbidden. Prophecy was not prediction of the future. It's all meaningless crap. Simon bar Kochba was seen by more Jews to be the messiah. There was no "millenial" kingdom. The IS no kingdom. NOTHING is fulfilled. No one can claim Jebus did anything. It's all rationalization by people who want "peshers" to be seen to predict. The job of a prophet was NOT to predict anything but to advise. Only ignorant fundie literalists go on about prediction, (like you). Leviticus forbade soothsaying. Religion is on the way out, ever since the scientific method took over as the way humans understood reality. 10,000 years from now your Jebus will still be MIA, and no one will give a shit about him. There will still be no "Kingdom of Israel". How is it they failed to know that instead aof a "kingdom" there would be a democracy ? They MISSSED THE most important cultural shift/change. If they REALLY were about prediction of the future they would have predicted democracy, OR ONE THING THAT WAS UNIQUELY NOT KNOW IN THAT CULTURE. There is nothing unique.
Jebus did not rise from the dead. A physical resurrection was not was Paul or anyone else meant. Where are all the other dead zombies that also rose in Matthew ? Where are their empty tombs ? What earthquake ? What torn temple curtain ? Why did no one recognize him ?
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...surrection

Please stop stealing your employer's time, playing on the internet while you're at work.

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01-04-2013, 01:40 PM
RE: Jesus, Yeshua, Joshua, and Isaiah are "essentially" the same thing
(01-04-2013 08:20 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(01-04-2013 07:08 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  I understand your point. What method of Bible interpretation or what in the passage in Isaiah 9 indicates that the names had to be applied to Jesus immediately rather than later? Jesus Himself was born nearly seven centuries after Isaiah if you take a conservative dating and three or four centuries later if you take a liberal date for the prophecy.

And then we can see that other Jews including Bar Kochba have never been called these things. No, this is one of hundreds of fulfilled prophecies. Note how BB dodges by stating Jesus didn't yet fulfill His Millennial Kingdom prophecies (again, why do all the prophecies have to be fulfilled on YOUR expected timeline, BB, what are the biblical reasons for such fulfillment) and ignores that many prophecies Christ already fulfilled.

Everything, of course, hinges on resurrection. A resurrected Christ would return to usher in a kingdom and also be the guarantor that Heaven, Hell and accountability with Jesus are reality.

None of them make a whit of difference. I'm not going down your fallacious rabbit hole. Soothsaying was forbidden. Prophecy was not prediction of the future. It's all meaningless crap. Simon bar Kochba was seen by more Jews to be the messiah. There was no "millenial" kingdom. The IS no kingdom. NOTHING is fulfilled. No one can claim Jebus did anything. It's all rationalization by people who want "peshers" to be seen to predict. The job of a prohet was NOT to predict anything but to advise. Only ignorant fundie literists go on about prediction, (like you). Leviticus forbade soothsaying. Religion is on the way out, ever since the scientific method took over as the way humans understood reality. 10000 years from now your Jebus will still be MIA, and no one will give a shit about him.

Jebus did not rise from the dead. A physical resurrection was not was Paul or anyone else meant. Where are all the other dead zombies that also rose in Matthew ? Where are their empty tombs ? What earthquake ? What torn temple curtain ? Why did no one recognize him ?
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...surrection

Please stop stealing your employer's time, playing on the internet while you're at work.

I see. You are offended that I would use a little break time at work or at home to post to this forum rather than surfing pornography or posting to Facebook, for example?

Can you tell me why these are pertinent to their time and not future prophecies waiting for fulfillment?

Matthew 24 - 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Revelation 21 - Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Genesis 15 - 12 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. 13 Then the Lord said to him, “Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. 15 You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”

Mark 8:31 - And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

1 Samuel 2 - 27 Then a man of God came to Eli and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Did I not clearly reveal Myself to the house of your father when they were in Egypt in Pharaoh’s house? 28 Did I not choose him out of all the tribes of Israel to be My priest, to offer upon My altar, to burn incense, and to wear an ephod before Me? And did I not give to the house of your father all the offerings of the children of Israel made by fire? 29 Why do you kick at My sacrifice and My offering which I have commanded in My dwelling place, and honor your sons more than Me, to make yourselves fat with the best of all the offerings of Israel My people?’ 30 Therefore the Lord God of Israel says: ‘I said indeed that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.’ But now the Lord says: ‘Far be it from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed. 31 Behold, the days are coming that I will cut off your arm and the arm of your father’s house, so that there will not be an old man in your house. 32 And you will see an enemy in My dwelling place, despite all the good which God does for Israel. And there shall not be an old man in your house forever. 33 But any of your men whom I do not cut off from My altar shall consume your eyes and grieve your heart. And all the descendants of your house shall die in the flower of their age. 34 Now this shall be a sign to you that will come upon your two sons, on Hophni and Phinehas: in one day they shall die, both of them. 35 Then I will raise up for Myself a faithful priest who shall do according to what is in My heart and in My mind. I will build him a sure house, and he shall walk before My anointed forever. 36 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left in your house will come and bow down to him for a piece of silver and a morsel of bread, and say, “Please, put me in one of the priestly positions, that I may eat a piece of bread.”’”
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01-04-2013, 01:55 PM
RE: Jesus, Yeshua, Joshua, and Isaiah are "essentially" the same thing
(01-04-2013 01:40 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(01-04-2013 08:20 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  None of them make a whit of difference. I'm not going down your fallacious rabbit hole. Soothsaying was forbidden. Prophecy was not prediction of the future. It's all meaningless crap. Simon bar Kochba was seen by more Jews to be the messiah. There was no "millenial" kingdom. The IS no kingdom. NOTHING is fulfilled. No one can claim Jebus did anything. It's all rationalization by people who want "peshers" to be seen to predict. The job of a prohet was NOT to predict anything but to advise. Only ignorant fundie literists go on about prediction, (like you). Leviticus forbade soothsaying. Religion is on the way out, ever since the scientific method took over as the way humans understood reality. 10000 years from now your Jebus will still be MIA, and no one will give a shit about him.

Jebus did not rise from the dead. A physical resurrection was not was Paul or anyone else meant. Where are all the other dead zombies that also rose in Matthew ? Where are their empty tombs ? What earthquake ? What torn temple curtain ? Why did no one recognize him ?
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...surrection

Please stop stealing your employer's time, playing on the internet while you're at work.

I see. You are offended that I would use a little break time at work or at home to post to this forum rather than surfing pornography or posting to Facebook, for example?

Can you tell me why these are pertinent to their time and not future prophecies waiting for fulfillment?

Matthew 24 - 36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Revelation 21 - Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

Genesis 15 - 12 As the sun was setting, Abram fell into a deep sleep, and a thick and dreadful darkness came over him. 13 Then the Lord said to him, “Know for certain that for four hundred years your descendants will be strangers in a country not their own and that they will be enslaved and mistreated there. 14 But I will punish the nation they serve as slaves, and afterward they will come out with great possessions. 15 You, however, will go to your ancestors in peace and be buried at a good old age. 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.”

Mark 8:31 - And He began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things, and be rejected by the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

1 Samuel 2 - 27 Then a man of God came to Eli and said to him, “Thus says the Lord: ‘Did I not clearly reveal Myself to the house of your father when they were in Egypt in Pharaoh’s house? 28 Did I not choose him out of all the tribes of Israel to be My priest, to offer upon My altar, to burn incense, and to wear an ephod before Me? And did I not give to the house of your father all the offerings of the children of Israel made by fire? 29 Why do you kick at My sacrifice and My offering which I have commanded in My dwelling place, and honor your sons more than Me, to make yourselves fat with the best of all the offerings of Israel My people?’ 30 Therefore the Lord God of Israel says: ‘I said indeed that your house and the house of your father would walk before Me forever.’ But now the Lord says: ‘Far be it from Me; for those who honor Me I will honor, and those who despise Me shall be lightly esteemed. 31 Behold, the days are coming that I will cut off your arm and the arm of your father’s house, so that there will not be an old man in your house. 32 And you will see an enemy in My dwelling place, despite all the good which God does for Israel. And there shall not be an old man in your house forever. 33 But any of your men whom I do not cut off from My altar shall consume your eyes and grieve your heart. And all the descendants of your house shall die in the flower of their age. 34 Now this shall be a sign to you that will come upon your two sons, on Hophni and Phinehas: in one day they shall die, both of them. 35 Then I will raise up for Myself a faithful priest who shall do according to what is in My heart and in My mind. I will build him a sure house, and he shall walk before My anointed forever. 36 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left in your house will come and bow down to him for a piece of silver and a morsel of bread, and say, “Please, put me in one of the priestly positions, that I may eat a piece of bread.”’”

We've been over this and over this. Speaking about what might occur, or giving advice is not "prediction WHICH IF IT COMES TRUE, *proves* something". You really are a dense little troll. That is not the role of a "prophet". Get over yourself. By your logic, everytime anytime anyone speaks in future tense, it implies thay are prophesying. It's simply bullshit.

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01-04-2013, 02:24 PM
RE: Jesus, Yeshua, Joshua, and Isaiah are "essentially" the same thing
(25-03-2013 06:46 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Because we're not talking about Greek only but Hebrew.
*"Yehoshua" - Hebrew Joshua = God saves.
*Y'shua (Iesous) Greek Jesus = God is Savior.
*Yeshayyahu - Hebrew Isaiah = God's salvation/God is generous.

Let's run this down so that it is correct, since most messianic sites don't seem to know Hebrew and poorly tranliterate and translate it.

Yeshua - ישוע - there is never a sh'va to give it a ' indicator in such an instance as you use it - This is a typical messianic Christian error) - Also, it really means "He will save". The yud without a heh (in thie insatnace) is a future tense second person indicator ("he"), and not "God" (Ya).

The others are worse. I'll pass.

You may want to use a proper Hebrew-English dictionary, or locate actual Hebrew sites rather than relying on people who are misguided in their faith as well as, apparently, their understanding of the basics.

“I've done everything the Bible says — even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff!"— Ned Flanders
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01-04-2013, 02:32 PM
RE: Jesus, Yeshua, Joshua, and Isaiah are "essentially" the same thing
(01-04-2013 02:24 PM)EGross Wrote:  
(25-03-2013 06:46 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Because we're not talking about Greek only but Hebrew.
*"Yehoshua" - Hebrew Joshua = God saves.
*Y'shua (Iesous) Greek Jesus = God is Savior.
*Yeshayyahu - Hebrew Isaiah = God's salvation/God is generous.

Let's run this down so that it is correct, since most messianic sites don't seem to know Hebrew and poorly tranliterate and translate it.

Yeshua - ישוע - there is never a sh'va to give it a ' indicator in such an instance as you use it - This is a typical messianic Christian error) - Also, it really means "He will save". The yud without a heh (in thie insatnace) is a future tense second person indicator ("he"), and not "God" (Ya).

The others are worse. I'll pass.

You may want to use a proper Hebrew-English dictionary, or locate actual Hebrew sites rather than relying on people who are misguided in their faith as well as, apparently, their understanding of the basics.

There are also, as far as I know, only a handful of people in the US who actually know, and translate Archaic Hebrew. A regular dictionary is not going to do him any good. I know the names of everyone of the people in the country who can and do that. He, (whoever he is), is not one of them.

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01-04-2013, 03:44 PM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2013 07:07 PM by Doctor X.)
RE: Jesus, Yeshua, Joshua, and Isaiah are "essentially" the same thing
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02-04-2013, 03:30 AM
RE: Jesus, Yeshua, Joshua, and Isaiah are "essentially" the same thing
(25-03-2013 03:31 PM)Doctor X Wrote:  You would think his brother would have objected to him claiming divinity. Of course, "whatever" the Original Message was, it was lost. I can accept it was probably eschatonic.

--J.D.

Any Jew, including his brother, would have been repulsed at the thought Jeebus thought he was divine. They weren't, because he didn't.

The divinity idea was (probably) invented by Paul.

And...just to complicate things even more, Paul's Christ (probably) wasn't Jeebus.
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02-04-2013, 04:02 AM
RE: Jesus, Yeshua, Joshua, and Isaiah are "essentially" the same thing
(26-03-2013 07:36 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
Quote:Since coming here, I have changed my mind a lot about the historical dude.
Mark Fulton has some very interesting stuff to say about this. For me, in the end, I think it wouldn't make sense to start a cult, and then fight about everything, (like they do in Acts). I suspect somewhere in there is an historical kernal. My theory revolves around the temple, and the Jerusalem economy. It's almost impossible to remember how important the temple was to the economy of that city. The ENTIRE economy was built on the festivals, and sacrificial buying and preparing and fee structures for ritual bathing, and staying over-night for visitors, and eating and money handed to the priests to do their thing, raising, feeding, breeding hundreds of thousands of sheep and goats, and slaughtering animals, and burning their carcasses, and changing the Roman currency into Hebrew for ritual purposes. Then along comes Jebus, and he pulls his stunt in the temple. He was a trouble-maker, and they just got rid of him. No trial. There was a standing order in the Pax Romana to execute trouble makers.

Saul of Tarsus did change eveything, however. SPJJT really practices Paulianity. He just doesn't know it.

Mark has a different view, that he may have actually been a revolutionary. And that most of what was cooked up was a Roman conspiracy. (See his tape by Joseph Atwill). That makes a lot of sense to me. In the end, it doesn't matter.

Christianity in no way "flows" culturally from Hebrew culture. After examining the origins of the OT, no one can make "ultimate claims" about it.
BB, I agree with the first part of your post. Even a tithe of a tithe was lots of gelt by the time hundreds of thousands of pilgrims were in town for a festival. However, it still seems like special pleading to me: Paul created a new cult using lies and half-truths to cover for a political/economic rebel for whom author authors pled He fulfilled prophecy from books written after events happened to claim foresight to cover books from four sources that were compiled to create a backstory for a culture that unlike its surrounding cultures, lacked a chief or particular deity. Also, brothers of the rebel then aligned their writings to Paul the liar... it just starts to sound like a 1,000-year conspiracy. It sounds as kooky as some of the religions and cultures out there! Please explain your rationale as to why and how over one dozen NT authors (not even including apocrypha and pseudopigrapha authors) were all in this conspiracy, and your rationale for the OT switcheroos also. I am sincerely and genuinely interested to learn more.

Hey PJ...I sense you are on the brink of a break through. Some of us (such as BB and me) give you a hard time when you sprout the "traditional" line....because...we've heard it all before...and a rational, nuanced examination of history proves it's bullshit. I would love to sit with you for a few hours, so as to get into your head to understand you...I'm also bursting with info I'd like to share with you ( after many...too many...years...studying the topic.) Fire away....ask me one specific question at a time...and I'll share with you.
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