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Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
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31-08-2016, 12:45 AM (This post was last modified: 31-08-2016 05:54 AM by Firefighter01.)
Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
I thought I would post a discussion that I've had in the past with some Christian friends of mine. I bring it up when they start talking about how supposedly popular Jesus was and how fast Christianity spread because of his "huge" influence.

Let me say upfront that I don't believe that a historical Jesus of the Bible existed, though it's possible that a so-called messiah named Jesus existed at that time and got made into a legend. It goes like this;

The empty tomb of Jesus has been debated for centuries, but if Jesus was followed and adored by multitudes as is says in the Bible, how could it be possible that no-one knows for sure exactly where the empty tomb is located?

If you Google "Jesus Tomb", you will get this search result from Wiki; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_Jesus

Quote:The tomb of Jesus may refer to any place where it is believed that Jesus was entombed.
Places that have been proposed as the location of such a tomb include:
Church of the Holy Sepulchre, Jerusalem
Garden Tomb, discovered in the 19th century outside the old city of Jerusalem
Talpiot Tomb, rock-cut tomb in the East Talpiot neighborhood, five kilometers south of the Old City in East Jerusalem
Roza Bal, the reputed tomb of Jesus in Kashmir
Kirisuto no haka in Shingō, Japan

Yes, no shit Japan is there too!

Why the tomb wasn't able to be 100% verified and also venerated as the most important shrine in the word is beyond comprehension for any "Son of God".

A lack of bones or interest in an empty tomb is a feeble excuse for non-veneration, as even William Craig is quoted as saying “During Jesus’s time there was an extraordinary interest in the graves of Jewish martyrs and holy men and these were scrupulously cared for and honored.” If the empty tomb is so crucial to Christian beliefs, why would the location be so easily lost and forgotten? Especially when all the commotions of visiting angels, Roman guards, the talking cross in the Gospel of St Peter etc.

Finally the tomb was that of Joseph of Arimathea, a person supposedly of some notoriety. The visitors to the tomb - Mary, the other Mary, or Simon Peter would certainly know of its location. It must have been common knowledge as they went straight to it!

After giving such detailed descriptions of what happened inside, they all promptly forgot about it and none of his followers or any of the multitudes thought it important enough to note where it was so that it could be properly examined and venerated? Gimme a break!
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31-08-2016, 12:57 AM
RE: Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
Quote:After giving such detailed descriptions of what happened inside, they all promptly forgot about it and none of his followers or any of the multitudes thought it important enough to note where it was so that it could be properly examined and venerated? Gimme a break!

People back then had to remember so many true stories, verbatim, that would finally be written down 300 years later and eventually be used as the basis for the bible, that they just didn't have time to keep track of mundane things like the burial place- and resurrection place- of the son of God. I mean, seriously, who can remember where a tangible, physical place like the lord's tomb is when you're busy remembering all of these verbal tales about him and the beginning of life and the heavens themselves, as well as the rules his father laid out to keep us all from burning for all eternity?

Seriously, bro...give those poor uneducated, illiterate bastards a break!
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31-08-2016, 05:35 AM
RE: Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
Good point, the same situation of ambiguous locations holds for Jesus' birthplace, the house where he grew up and his crucifixion.

The ambiguity continues with the burial site of his immediate family, The Talpiot Tomb is mentioned as this burial site, but of course they can't verify it, oh and this tomb is also supposed to have the alleged ossuary of Jesus, which means he didn't rise from the dead.

This is not something believers want to accept.

The ambiguity of all of these supposed locations is an uncomfortably long list for believers.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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31-08-2016, 05:35 AM (This post was last modified: 31-08-2016 05:39 AM by Firefighter01.)
RE: Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
The Dark One Wrote:After giving such detailed descriptions of what happened inside, they all promptly forgot about it and none of his followers or any of the multitudes thought it important enough to note where it was so that it could be properly examined and venerated? Gimme a break!

People back then had to remember so many true stories, verbatim, that would finally be written down 300 years later and eventually be used as the basis for the bible, that they just didn't have time to keep track of mundane things like the burial place- and resurrection place- of the son of God. I mean, seriously, who can remember where a tangible, physical place like the lord's tomb is when you're busy remembering all of these verbal tales about him and the beginning of life and the heavens themselves, as well as the rules his father laid out to keep us all from burning for all eternity?

Seriously, bro...give those poor uneducated, illiterate bastards a break!
Yeah I know Confused Imagine how hard it would be just to get the Sermon on the Mount right word for word. Not to mention if you were the middle of a crowd of multitudes that wouldn't shut the fuck up. "What did he say?"
"I think it was “Blessed are the cheesemakers.”
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31-08-2016, 05:50 AM
RE: Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
TheInquisition Wrote:Good point, the same situation of ambiguous locations holds for Jesus' birthplace, the house where he grew up and his crucifixion.

The ambiguity continues with the burial site of his immediate family, The Talpiot Tomb is mentioned as this burial site, but of course they can't verify it, oh and this tomb is also supposed to have the alleged ossuary of Jesus, which means he didn't rise from the dead.

This is not something believers want to accept.

The ambiguity of all of these supposed locations is an uncomfortably long list for believers.
Ah yes, I haven't thought much about those other ambiguities. Dates of birth and death can also be added to the list. If only he could have been born at 666 Manger Rd Bethlehem so everyone would have remembered Dodgy But then we still wouldn't know if it was in the house or the manger, would we? Thanks for your support btw!
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31-08-2016, 06:13 AM
RE: Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
(31-08-2016 12:45 AM)Firefighter01 Wrote:  I thought I would post a discussion that I've had in the past with some Christian friends of mine. I bring it up when they start talking about how supposedly popular Jesus was and how fast Christianity spread because of his "huge" influence.

Let me say upfront that I don't believe that a historical Jesus of the Bible existed, though it's possible that a so-called messiah named Jesus existed at that time and got made into a legend. It goes like this;

The empty tomb of Jesus has been debated for centuries, but if Jesus was followed and adored by multitudes as is says in the Bible, how could it be possible that no-one knows for sure exactly where the empty tomb is located?

If you Google "Jesus Tomb", you will get this search result from Wiki; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_Jesus

Quote:The tomb of Jesus may refer to any place where it is believed that Jesus was entombed.
Places that have been proposed as the location of such a tomb include:
Church of the Holy Sepulchre, Jerusalem
Garden Tomb, discovered in the 19th century outside the old city of Jerusalem
Talpiot Tomb, rock-cut tomb in the East Talpiot neighborhood, five kilometers south of the Old City in East Jerusalem
Roza Bal, the reputed tomb of Jesus in Kashmir
Kirisuto no haka in Shingō, Japan

Yes, no shit Japan is there too!

Why the tomb wasn't able to be 100% verified and also venerated as the most important shrine in the word is beyond comprehension for any "Son of God".

A lack of bones or interest in an empty tomb is a feeble excuse for non-veneration, as even William Craig is quoted as saying “During Jesus’s time there was an extraordinary interest in the graves of Jewish martyrs and holy men and these were scrupulously cared for and honored.” If the empty tomb is so crucial to Christian beliefs, why would the location be so easily lost and forgotten? Especially when all the commotions of visiting angels, Roman guards, the talking cross in the Gospel of St Peter etc.

Finally the tomb was that of Joseph of Arimathea, a person supposedly of some notoriety. The visitors to the tomb - Mary, the other Mary, or Simon Peter would certainly know of its location. It must have been common knowledge as they went straight to it!

After giving such detailed descriptions of what happened inside, they all promptly forgot about it and none of his followers or any of the multitudes thought it important enough to note where it was so that it could be properly examined and venerated? Gimme a break!

Um no, there never has been such a thing as a man/god or "messiah" or "prophet" of any religion.

Humans in all religions, and even Buddhism is rooted in the mythology of the "divine". Don't believe me? Look up the first Buddha who was born from Queen Maya, who was told by the "divine world" that she would give birth to a boy who would grow up to bring wisdom to the world. The first depictions of Buddha also have his birth avoiding the birth canal.

With Christianity, of course there was a group of splinter Hebrews who didn't like the ways of their time who split off and created Christianity. But that does not make the Jesus character a real person. A person may have lead a group to start the new religion, but under no circumstances has there ever been a human born without a second set of DNA, nor do humans survive the death myth as implied by the bible.

Long before the religions of Abraham, in polytheism as well, humans sought explanations through religious leaders and people called oracles and prophets and soothsayers. But the truth is a bad guess is a bad guess, and no human has a magic bat phone to a cosmic sky hero, nor does anyone have a magic book or crystal ball.

What matters to me more than a history of ANY religious tradition, is the lack of evidence for all the fantastic claims with no scientific evidence for them.

And just so you know, the God of the bible is the same god of the Hebrews, and prior to becoming a monotheistic deity, Yahweh was a character stolen by the Hebrews who prior, was a lesser deity under the head god El as part of the Canaanite "divine family".

I accept that the history has to be argued, but again, that isn't as important to me as knowing that even after all those claims, they cant even prove the necessity for a god even before they get to the first word of that book.

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31-08-2016, 06:22 AM
RE: Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
(31-08-2016 05:35 AM)Firefighter01 Wrote:  Yeah I know Confused Imagine how hard it would be just to get the Sermon on the Mount right word for word. Not to mention if you were the middle of a crowd of multitudes that wouldn't shut the fuck up. "What did he say?"
"I think it was “Blessed are the cheesemakers.”

The exact words may not be that critical as long as the gist remains intact. In this case the important idea is that it can refer to any manufacturer of dairy products.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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31-08-2016, 06:34 AM
RE: Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
(31-08-2016 06:13 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Um no, there never has been such a thing as a man/god or "messiah" or "prophet" of any religion.
Hi Brian,
yes I agree with you. Just to clarify, I meant there could have been a so-called messiah with the name of Jesus that may have been made into a legendary figure of the Bible. I think that Jesus was a fairly common name back then.
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31-08-2016, 08:33 AM
RE: Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
People were storytellers extraordinaire in those days. Mark 4:28 " his fame spread abroad throughout all the region round about Galilee." Matthew 4:24 "And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments..." Yet no one knows where his tomb is and no one wrote about him during his lifetime. HummmmmConsider Dodgy

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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31-08-2016, 08:43 AM
RE: Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
(31-08-2016 06:34 AM)Firefighter01 Wrote:  
(31-08-2016 06:13 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  Um no, there never has been such a thing as a man/god or "messiah" or "prophet" of any religion.
Hi Brian,
yes I agree with you. Just to clarify, I meant there could have been a so-called messiah with the name of Jesus that may have been made into a legendary figure of the Bible. I think that Jesus was a fairly common name back then.

Again, it is obvious a movement happened otherwise there would be no Christianity. But there is absolutely no contemporary evidence that that Character ever existed during the alleged time the bible claims he did, and regardless there still is no such thing as a human with magic super powers in any case.

If there had been a real rabblerouser the Romans would have taken notice, but the reality is there is no contemporary evidence independent by the Romans. The "historians" Christian apologists like to quote are way after the fact.

It makes much more sense that the writers of the NT were simply competing for attention and slapped the name on a common hero motif after the fact. Jesus was a very common name back then for that region, just like John or Smith is in the west today.

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