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Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
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31-08-2016, 09:23 AM
RE: Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
(31-08-2016 08:43 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  If there had been a real rabblerouser the Romans would have taken notice, but the reality is there is no contemporary evidence independent by the Romans.

Think about this for a minute. The Romans crucified thousands of criminals and rabble-rousers. They didn't bother to record the names of any of them (except possibly Spartacus, if he was real). So why would they make an exception for Jesus? To them, he was just another rabble-rouser. The fact that there is no Roman documentation of his death is not evidence that he didn't exist.
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31-08-2016, 09:35 AM
RE: Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
(31-08-2016 09:23 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(31-08-2016 08:43 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  If there had been a real rabblerouser the Romans would have taken notice, but the reality is there is no contemporary evidence independent by the Romans.

Think about this for a minute. The Romans crucified thousands of criminals and rabble-rousers. They didn't bother to record the names of any of them (except possibly Spartacus, if he was real). So why would they make an exception for Jesus? To them, he was just another rabble-rouser. The fact that there is no Roman documentation of his death is not evidence that he didn't exist.

Nope sorry, doesn't work like that. We can also assume he did, it would still make that individual a mere mortal with no magic super powers in any case. Nobody is born without a second set of DNA. Nobody walks on water or turns water into wine, nobody raises the dead, via "poof", and nobody survives having all the blood drained out of their body to the point of complete organ and brain death only to magically poof back to life as the death myth implies.

Now go back and re read my prior post. I said it was obvious someone or a group of people inspired the new movement. That still does not make a magic man a reality. Our best evidence is the name Jesus was slapped on a movement after the fact. Humans still do not have super powers regardless..

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31-08-2016, 10:00 AM
RE: Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
(31-08-2016 09:35 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  
(31-08-2016 09:23 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Think about this for a minute. The Romans crucified thousands of criminals and rabble-rousers. They didn't bother to record the names of any of them (except possibly Spartacus, if he was real). So why would they make an exception for Jesus? To them, he was just another rabble-rouser. The fact that there is no Roman documentation of his death is not evidence that he didn't exist.

Nope sorry, doesn't work like that. We can also assume he did, it would still make that individual a mere mortal with no magic super powers in any case. Nobody is born without a second set of DNA. Nobody walks on water or turns water into wine, nobody raises the dead, via "poof", and nobody survives having all the blood drained out of their body to the point of complete organ and brain death only to magically poof back to life as the death myth implies.

Now go back and re read my prior post. I said it was obvious someone or a group of people inspired the new movement. That still does not make a magic man a reality. Our best evidence is the name Jesus was slapped on a movement after the fact. Humans still do not have super powers regardless..

Did I say anything about super powers or miracles? No, I didn't. You were claiming that there is no evidence that Jesus existed at all. Even if this were true (it isn't, because the Gospels constitute such evidence, however poor that evidence may be), so what? Why should there be any evidence in the form of Roman documentation?

I make no claims about the divinity of Jesus. I'm an atheist. I don't believe in God, and I don't believe Jesus was God. However, I'm willing to accept that the Gospels may be based on a character who existed at the time they say he did. I don't see that as being terribly unlikely. You claim that it is terribly unlikely, simply because we have no Roman documentation. I ask again -- why would you expect there to be Roman documentation?
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31-08-2016, 10:17 AM (This post was last modified: 31-08-2016 10:26 AM by Deltabravo.)
RE: Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
(31-08-2016 12:45 AM)Firefighter01 Wrote:  I thought I would post a discussion that I've had in the past with some Christian friends of mine. I bring it up when they start talking about how supposedly popular Jesus was and how fast Christianity spread because of his "huge" influence.

Let me say upfront that I don't believe that a historical Jesus of the Bible existed, though it's possible that a so-called messiah named Jesus existed at that time and got made into a legend. It goes like this;

The empty tomb of Jesus has been debated for centuries, but if Jesus was followed and adored by multitudes as is says in the Bible, how could it be possible that no-one knows for sure exactly where the empty tomb is located?

If you Google "Jesus Tomb", you will get this search result from Wiki; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb_of_Jesus

Quote:The tomb of Jesus may refer to any place where it is believed that Jesus was entombed.
Places that have been proposed as the location of such a tomb include:
Church of the Holy Sepulchre, Jerusalem
Garden Tomb, discovered in the 19th century outside the old city of Jerusalem
Talpiot Tomb, rock-cut tomb in the East Talpiot neighborhood, five kilometers south of the Old City in East Jerusalem
Roza Bal, the reputed tomb of Jesus in Kashmir
Kirisuto no haka in Shingō, Japan

Yes, no shit Japan is there too!

Why the tomb wasn't able to be 100% verified and also venerated as the most important shrine in the word is beyond comprehension for any "Son of God".

A lack of bones or interest in an empty tomb is a feeble excuse for non-veneration, as even William Craig is quoted as saying “During Jesus’s time there was an extraordinary interest in the graves of Jewish martyrs and holy men and these were scrupulously cared for and honored.” If the empty tomb is so crucial to Christian beliefs, why would the location be so easily lost and forgotten? Especially when all the commotions of visiting angels, Roman guards, the talking cross in the Gospel of St Peter etc.

Finally the tomb was that of Joseph of Arimathea, a person supposedly of some notoriety. The visitors to the tomb - Mary, the other Mary, or Simon Peter would certainly know of its location. It must have been common knowledge as they went straight to it!

After giving such detailed descriptions of what happened inside, they all promptly forgot about it and none of his followers or any of the multitudes thought it important enough to note where it was so that it could be properly examined and venerated? Gimme a break!

So, when Christians present the Shroud of Turin which they say was found in Jesus' tomb, that's also a hoax.

I mean, you can't have it both ways. 1. They took no interest in the tomb and no one collected the shroud... 2. they say they collected the shroud, but it's a hoax because no one would have preserved his shroud.

Even if it's a hoax, it shows that there was some history at some point of people looking for and finding his tomb.

As of 622 AD the whole area falls under the control of Muslims who have no interest in his tomb and the Islamic Caliphate isn't ended until 1923 and two decades later Judea is handed over to Israel.

This guy says he has found it. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/...58514.html

There are thousands of tombs in Jerusalem and area. Pick one. What does it matter that no one knows precisely which one it is anyway? History has obscured much of what happened in Judea and it's not like any of the occupying powers since then had any interest in publicizing where it was, if it existed.
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01-09-2016, 07:57 AM
RE: Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
(31-08-2016 12:45 AM)Firefighter01 Wrote:  After giving such detailed descriptions of what happened inside, they all promptly forgot about it and none of his followers or any of the multitudes thought it important enough to note where it was so that it could be properly examined and venerated? Gimme a break!

Perhaps God allowed the exact location to be forgotten because he wants us to focus our attention on Jesus himself, not the location of his burial.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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01-09-2016, 12:01 PM
RE: Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
(01-09-2016 07:57 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(31-08-2016 12:45 AM)Firefighter01 Wrote:  After giving such detailed descriptions of what happened inside, they all promptly forgot about it and none of his followers or any of the multitudes thought it important enough to note where it was so that it could be properly examined and venerated? Gimme a break!

Perhaps God allowed the exact location to be forgotten because he wants us to focus our attention on Jesus himself, not the location of his burial.

Even if god did exist, it would still be impossible for anything in existence to be that special.

Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

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01-09-2016, 12:27 PM
RE: Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
(01-09-2016 12:01 PM)Old Man Marsh Wrote:  
(01-09-2016 07:57 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Perhaps God allowed the exact location to be forgotten because he wants us to focus our attention on Jesus himself, not the location of his burial.

Even if god did exist, it would still be impossible for anything in existence to be that special.

I am that special. My mom told me. Tongue
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01-09-2016, 08:12 PM
RE: Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
(01-09-2016 07:57 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(31-08-2016 12:45 AM)Firefighter01 Wrote:  After giving such detailed descriptions of what happened inside, they all promptly forgot about it and none of his followers or any of the multitudes thought it important enough to note where it was so that it could be properly examined and venerated? Gimme a break!

Perhaps God allowed the exact location to be forgotten because he wants us to focus our attention on Jesus himself, not the location of his burial.

So god hides the truth to give fodder for those that question his existence. Fucking brilliant! Facepalm

Or maybe it was Satan?

[Image: could-it-be-satan.jpg?w=500]

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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01-09-2016, 10:18 PM
RE: Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
(01-09-2016 08:12 PM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(01-09-2016 07:57 AM)theophilus Wrote:  Perhaps God allowed the exact location to be forgotten because he wants us to focus our attention on Jesus himself, not the location of his burial.

So god hides the truth to give fodder for those that question his existence. Fucking brilliant! Facepalm

Or maybe it was Satan?

[Image: could-it-be-satan.jpg?w=500]
Hahahar! I remember seeing that clip somewhere, it's a beauty!
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01-09-2016, 10:31 PM
RE: Jesus and His Forgotten Tomb
(31-08-2016 09:23 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Think about this for a minute. The Romans crucified thousands of criminals and rabble-rousers. They didn't bother to record the names of any of them (except possibly Spartacus, if he was real). So why would they make an exception for Jesus? To them, he was just another rabble-rouser. The fact that there is no Roman documentation of his death is not evidence that he didn't exist.
Hi Grasshopper, yes that is true, but there were other historians of that era and some even in the exact area that were silent, which is very improbable IMO. Philo of Alexandria is one very important one that only knew of a celestial Jesus. Also except for that well known, very short interpolation, Josephus is silent too.

Quote:Josephus' work is voluminous and exhaustive. It comprises twenty books. Whole pages are devoted to petty robbers and obscure seditious leaders. Nearly forty chapters are devoted to the life of a single king. Yet this remarkable being, the greatest product of his race, a being of whom the prophets foretold ten thousand wonderful things, a being greater than any earthly king, is dismissed with a dozen lines."

-- The Christ, by John E. Remsburg, reprinted by Prometheus Books, New York, 1994, pages 171-3
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