Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
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09-05-2011, 11:54 AM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
I don't have a specific source in mind for the debunking but there are several of them. Someone earlier in this thread provided a link that talks about some of the "evidence" for his actual existence and explains why it's false. The single biggest thing to consider is the total lack of evidence to support his existence, though. The writings of the time do not refer to him at all. Again, that does not mean that he did not exist but it makes proving he did pretty much impossible. Personally, I think there was probably a real person at the core of the whole mythology. He was probably a minor historical figure at the time, maybe not worthy of real notice or attention or maybe erased from history by decree of the Romans or maybe some other explanation as to why we have no record (like it's just lost over time), but I think it stands to reason that there was some actual person pushing for a passive resistance movement or something against the Romans and he formed the start of this story.

And, you're right about how the biblical Jesus has been modified over time to fit the Pagan beliefs and gain converts. Christmas is December 25 because that date roughly coincides with the winter solstice. Easter is when it is to celebrate the spring equinox. Even the name "Easter" is from Esther, the pagan goddess of spring and fertility. I know the mythology has it that he died around Passover but I'm not sure that is even supportable and recall reading at some point that was added to the story later.

As for your last point: I think most everyone understands the point that there is a difference between the biblical Jesus and the historical Jesus and it is possible that he could have lived and been real. There are a lot of people who actually lived who are as much a part of legend as they are actual history. Most everyone (at least in the US) is familiar with George Washington, Blackbeard the pirate, Elliot Ness the G-Man who brought down Al Capone, some may remember Greg "Pappy" Boyington from the 1970s show "Ba Ba Blacksheep" about a WWII marine fighter squadron in the Pacific fighting the Japanese (I loved that show as a kid!), and the list could go on and on and on. George Washington, Blackbeard, Elliot Ness and Pappy Boyington were all real people, but a lot of the most well known stories about them are myths loosely based on their real lives. It is entirely possible the same is true of Jesus Christ. I think the point is that there is just no real evidence to support that there is and all the attempts to manufacture evidence for the case to support him being real are flimsy at best.

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09-05-2011, 06:02 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
Do you remember the old Aztec (??) stories about how they would 'transcribe' stories about an event through generation? Ie

1.) A guy starts 'writing' something down, a story
2.) The guy dies (life exp is like 25 to 30)
3.) His 'family' or 'son' or etc continues to write a story that he/she didn't witness. The person 'adds' things to it, to make it drift away from the original story
4.) This continues for a good bit until a generation passes and then it starts over again

Could this be applied to the bible?
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09-05-2011, 08:06 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(09-05-2011 06:02 PM)Monk Wrote:  Do you remember the old Aztec (??) stories about how they would 'transcribe' stories about an event through generation? Ie

1.) A guy starts 'writing' something down, a story
2.) The guy dies (life exp is like 25 to 30)
3.) His 'family' or 'son' or etc continues to write a story that he/she didn't witness. The person 'adds' things to it, to make it drift away from the original story
4.) This continues for a good bit until a generation passes and then it starts over again

Could this be applied to the bible?

Absolutely. I think that we have such heavy evidence against the existence of Jesus, and little evidence for his existence, comparatively, speaks volumes. the fact that people even have to search for evidence of daunting enough.
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11-05-2011, 03:00 PM
 
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
The Net! Wrote:The Psychological Make-up of Jesus

With the limited authentic information available to us, it is impossible to draw up a psychological profile of Jesus. But it is interesting to note that an uncritical appreciation of the reliability of the gospel accounts can lead to some rather bewildering (to Christians) conclusions about Jesus' inner psychology.
In the early years of the twentieth century some psychologists and psychiatrists such as Dr. Charles Binet-Sangle, Professor of Psychology at the University of Paris, Dr. J. Dagonet, a physician at St. Anne's Hospital in Paris and Dr. B. Ball, Professor of Mental Pathology in the Faculty of Medicine in Paris made various diagnosis about Jesus. Given below is a summary of their findings: [1]

Jesus suffered from theomania (excessive religious devotion) inherited through his parents' devoutness. Theomaniacs studied at the mental hospital at Charenton believe that they are called by God, and that they cannot be harmed and that they will live forever. Mystic visions are also very common among theomaniacs. Jesus seeing the dove coming down on him during his baptism (Mark 1:10-11) is the classic example of the type mystic vision experienced by theomaniacs. Dr. Dagonet noted that theomaniacs get very easily irritated and will not permit contradiction of their utterances, as Jesus was in Mark 3:5. They often speak in tones of authority. Dr. Ball pointed out that the great religious innovators of history, such as Martin Luther and Muhammad, have always been psychologically abnormal.
Coupled with his theomania is his megalomania. After all, it is quite incompatible with a sound mind that Jesus would announce himself the future judge of the universe (John 5:27).
Jesus suffered from the hallucinatory syndrome. This is proven by the numerous visions he experienced throughout his ministry: on his baptism where he saw the Holy Spirit and heard the voice of God (Mark 1:10-11); during his fact in the desert where he saw Satan himself (Matthew 4:1-11; Luke 4:1-12); and in Gethsemane where he saw angels (Luke 22:43). Surely if anyone today tells us he has heard the voice of God, spoken to the devil and has seen angels, we would be hard put not to pronounce him deranged.
He also suffered from dromomania (irrepressible wanderlust). This is evident from his frequent journeyings, from Nazareth to the banks of the Jordan, from there to the wilderness, then back to Nazareth, to Cana, to Capernaum, to Phoenicia, to Caesarea, to Samaria, to Judea etc.
A detailed analysis by the psychologists and psychiatrists of the sayings of Jesus showed that he was an egocentric maniac devoid of profundity of thought, incoherent and often amoral.
They also noted various physiological symptoms that point to an abnormal condition:
The sweat of blood at Gethsemane (Luke 22:44) shows a defect in his vaso-motor system and is in reality a facial hematidrosis.
The forty day fast in the desert (Matthew 4:2; Luke 4:2) shows that Jesus had problems with his digestive system. The forty day fast was actually an attack of sitiophobia.
The fact that Jesus was incapable of carrying the cross himself (Mark 15:21; Matthew 27:32; Luke 23:26) and the pleuro-tubercular effusion revealed by the lance-thrust (John 19:34) shows that Jesus had problems with his respiratory organs as well.
Jesus probably had problems with his genital organs as well. We get psychological hints from Jesus' encouragement of castration (Matthew 19:12) and his glorification of sterility (Luke 23:29).
Jesus also suffered from Oedipism or a tendency to engage self-mutilation. This is evidenced from his advise to his to his followers to pluck their eyes and cut their hands to avoid sinning. (Matthew 5:29-30)
And finally we have the testimony from his family, his mother and brothers (Mark 3:21) and his enemies (Mark 3:22), who all thought that he was mad.
In short the psychologists and psychiatrists thought Jesus as a typical psychotic, a visionary, a paranoid and a megalomaniac. With diseases of the digestive system, the lungs and the genitals, he wasn't too healthy either!
It would be wrong to criticize the competence of these esteemed thinkers in the field of psychopathology. Their diagnosis of Jesus is invalid for a different reason: their lack of appreciation of source criticism. That is to say, they do not understand that most of the actions and sayings attributed to Jesus by the gospels are not historical and were actually supplied by the early Christian tradition.

It should be mentioned that my disagreement with their diagnosis is no consolation to believers, especially those who accept everything spoken in the Bible as literally true; for then the psychopathological diagnosis cannot be so easily dismissed. It goes to show that a fundamentalist's acceptance of the complete veracity of the gospels accounts lead men trained in the field of psychopathology to conclude that Jesus was a sick madman!




References

1. Craveri, The Life of Jesus: p167-168
Guignebert, Jesus: p170-171
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11-05-2011, 03:43 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
Hey, Celestus87.

The passage you just quoted bothers me because I fell that it makes a mockery of science, not theology.

Hey, BnW.

I actually recently spoke to a theologian. I trust this person implicitly. She told me that there is actually very little historical evidence to support the existence of Jesus as a historical figure. Josephus is about the only one and his mention of Jesus, as mentioned earlier, is very slight. What she did say is that the general consensus is that the gospels constitute the bulk of the support for Jesus' existence and while the gospels were written about 80 years or so after Jesus, the stories of Jesus were transmitted orally between the time of Jesus and the time of their transcription. Some people might consider oral transmission suspect, but oral tradition was adept at transmitting information with great fidelity. For example, Homer's Illiad, a 15 000 line poem, was transmitted orally for a very long time (I don't have a figure for you) before it was transcribed.

I agree with you that we'll likely never prove that he existed and I too think that a man existed named Jesus. My only theory for the lack of expansive information about him is that the conquerors write the history. No one other than the Christians had any vested interest in writing about him. So yeah, as you say, he was basically a Roman cover up.

Good point about the mythological figures, although I have no fucking clue who this Pappy person is.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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12-05-2011, 07:58 AM
 
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(11-05-2011 03:43 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Celestus87.

The passage you just quoted bothers me because I fell that it makes a mockery of science, not theology.

The passage shows the psychopathological evidence and then tries to disregard them. That does not mean that I agree with it. It's just that I could not find another source that would list the apparent-to-the-blind psychopathology of JC. Cool

PS. Perhaps I should have explained myself rather than just copy/paste it... >_>
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12-05-2011, 09:44 AM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(11-05-2011 03:43 PM)Ghost Wrote:  I actually recently spoke to a theologian. I trust this person implicitly. She told me that there is actually very little historical evidence to support the existence of Jesus as a historical figure.

Right, and that's sort of the point. There are a lot of attempts to manufacture evidence "proving" he really lived but all of it is bogus. There is no archeological evidence that in any way supports a real person named Jesus ever lived. Even the ossuary that is mentioned in one of the articles in this thread does not stand up to any real rational inquiry. Again, lack of evidence doesn't mean a real person did not exist, it just means it cannot be proven.

Also, I thought the time between the the writing of Jesus' supposed death and the writing of the gospels was much longer than 80 years. I may be wrong on that but I thought it was closer to 200 or so.

Finally,

(11-05-2011 03:43 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Good point about the mythological figures, although I have no fucking clue who this Pappy person is.

Pappy Boyington was a fighter pilot and one of the original Flying Tigers when the US was covertly helping out the Chinese resist the Japanese prior to our formal involvement in WWII. He then went on to command a Marine fighter squadron in the Pacific. Actually, he's one of the few figures I listed where the mythology is not that far from the truth. The TV show about his exploits told stories that were made up by writers but the basics of the show were accurate. Shame that show is not even on in syndication anymore. That and the original "Battlestar: Gallactica" were the best TV productions of that era.

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13-05-2011, 07:15 AM
 
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
If Jesus had done all the great things as described in the Bible the writers of the era would have taken notice. You don't walk around as a "God-man" and not be noticed. There is nothing to eliminate the possibility that a man with the name Jesus walked around, but no one took notice, so he would have been one of the many messiahs walking about at the time. Unless, of course, everyone at the time had extraordinary powers and so they never were mentioned as it was a normal everyday occurrence.
The point is, nothing in the essay presents anything that provides evidence, and nothing that has not been debunked at one time or another.



(09-05-2011 11:54 AM)BnW Wrote:  I don't have a specific source in mind for the debunking but there are several of them. Someone earlier in this thread provided a link that talks about some of the "evidence" for his actual existence and explains why it's false. The single biggest thing to consider is the total lack of evidence to support his existence, though. The writings of the time do not refer to him at all. Again, that does not mean that he did not exist but it makes proving he did pretty much impossible. Personally, I think there was probably a real person at the core of the whole mythology. He was probably a minor historical figure at the time, maybe not worthy of real notice or attention or maybe erased from history by decree of the Romans or maybe some other explanation as to why we have no record (like it's just lost over time), but I think it stands to reason that there was some actual person pushing for a passive resistance movement or something against the Romans and he formed the start of this story.

And, you're right about how the biblical Jesus has been modified over time to fit the Pagan beliefs and gain converts. Christmas is December 25 because that date roughly coincides with the winter solstice. Easter is when it is to celebrate the spring equinox. Even the name "Easter" is from Esther, the pagan goddess of spring and fertility. I know the mythology has it that he died around Passover but I'm not sure that is even supportable and recall reading at some point that was added to the story later.

As for your last point: I think most everyone understands the point that there is a difference between the biblical Jesus and the historical Jesus and it is possible that he could have lived and been real. There are a lot of people who actually lived who are as much a part of legend as they are actual history. Most everyone (at least in the US) is familiar with George Washington, Blackbeard the pirate, Elliot Ness the G-Man who brought down Al Capone, some may remember Greg "Pappy" Boyington from the 1970s show "Ba Ba Blacksheep" about a WWII marine fighter squadron in the Pacific fighting the Japanese (I loved that show as a kid!), and the list could go on and on and on. George Washington, Blackbeard, Elliot Ness and Pappy Boyington were all real people, but a lot of the most well known stories about them are myths loosely based on their real lives. It is entirely possible the same is true of Jesus Christ. I think the point is that there is just no real evidence to support that there is and all the attempts to manufacture evidence for the case to support him being real are flimsy at best.
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18-01-2013, 03:58 PM (This post was last modified: 18-01-2013 04:10 PM by Hughsie.)
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(06-05-2011 01:23 AM)bird Wrote:  I believe that he was an actual person. Always thought he was, but not the son of god. It's kind of hard to get people to follow blindly like sheep without having an actual person to follow. Either way, his whole story is a load of shit.


That's right! A load of bird shit. All religious leaders sell snake oil!
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30-01-2013, 10:59 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
Nazareth ... no signs of it ever being a city or even a village.

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