Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
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22-04-2016, 07:17 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(22-04-2016 11:47 AM)102 Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 03:03 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  [Image: TTA-necro_zps7qtt7xyd.png]
So you've established that Jesus existed, as a historical figure. But that's only half the battle. Now you must figure out whether Jesus was the "son of God" as it is claimed by so many. Because this is such a huge issue, I believe it is important to establish a hard case on whether this historical figure was the son of God, rather than dismiss all the claims as false. If we do this, then the creationists will win. So we should give reasons for why we dismiss these claims.

Perhaps his followers hallucinated due to extreme emotions from his death, causing them to believe he rose from the dead. We see very clearly even today that his followers are devoted to him. Maybe the claims were made up later by early Christians, and no one at the time of this "messiah" actually thought he was the son of their god, or rose from the dead. Or maybe his followers knew that this Jesus did not rise from the dead, but made up the story anyway to establish a following.

Which do you think is more likely?

I don't even remember what image I had posted there. I'll have to check. But I don't think Jesus was the literal son of a god, nor do I think he came back from the dead. I'm an atheist.
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16-05-2016, 10:26 AM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(22-04-2016 07:17 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  
(22-04-2016 11:47 AM)102 Wrote:  So you've established that Jesus existed, as a historical figure. But that's only half the battle. Now you must figure out whether Jesus was the "son of God" as it is claimed by so many. Because this is such a huge issue, I believe it is important to establish a hard case on whether this historical figure was the son of God, rather than dismiss all the claims as false. If we do this, then the creationists will win. So we should give reasons for why we dismiss these claims.

Perhaps his followers hallucinated due to extreme emotions from his death, causing them to believe he rose from the dead. We see very clearly even today that his followers are devoted to him. Maybe the claims were made up later by early Christians, and no one at the time of this "messiah" actually thought he was the son of their god, or rose from the dead. Or maybe his followers knew that this Jesus did not rise from the dead, but made up the story anyway to establish a following.

Which do you think is more likely?

I don't even remember what image I had posted there. I'll have to check. But I don't think Jesus was the literal son of a god, nor do I think he came back from the dead. I'm an atheist.

I know you are an atheist. Most of us on this site are, and you said that in a previous comment. "But I don't think Jesus was the literal son of a god, nor do I think he came back from the dead. I'm an atheist." I was simply requesting that we justify this position. Scientists are always looking for an explanation for strange phenomena, and I think the rapid spread of Christianity qualifies. Or does it? Why didn't other, similar cults at the time succeed, but this one did? In other words, why do you, all the atheists reading this, disagree with the establishment Christian masses about who "Jesus" really was? Just wanted to hear your opinions.
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16-05-2016, 10:51 AM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2016 11:44 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(22-04-2016 11:47 AM)102 Wrote:  
(06-12-2015 03:03 PM)Clockwork Wrote:  [Image: TTA-necro_zps7qtt7xyd.png]
So you've established that Jesus existed, as a historical figure. But that's only half the battle. Now you must figure out whether Jesus was the "son of God" as it is claimed by so many. Because this is such a huge issue, I believe it is important to establish a hard case on whether this historical figure was the son of God, rather than dismiss all the claims as false. If we do this, then the creationists will win. So we should give reasons for why we dismiss these claims.

Perhaps his followers hallucinated due to extreme emotions from his death, causing them to believe he rose from the dead. We see very clearly even today that his followers are devoted to him. Maybe the claims were made up later by early Christians, and no one at the time of this "messiah" actually thought he was the son of their god, or rose from the dead. Or maybe his followers knew that this Jesus did not rise from the dead, but made up the story anyway to establish a following.

Which do you think is more likely?

Not gonna help. At all.
In ancient Israel a "son of god" was a "righteous man". There were tons and tons of them with that appellation. Generals, priests, poiliticians, etc., etc. "Sons of god" were a dime a dozen.
You, IN NO WAY, "see that his followers were devoted to him". What you do see, are the texts that were *voted* into a canon, many many many years later, that attempt to portray that.
Christian professors of New Testament have written books about how the Resurrection story was misunderstood, ("The Trouble with Resurrection"), and indeed the (so called) events surrounding the entire
myth are troubling.
a. The Jewish Sanhedrin WAS NEVER ONCE, in all of history, called into session on Passover weekend. Never.
b. There were NEVER reports of 500 graves being emptied or bodies running around Jerusalem on Easter Sunday, or many "rocks split", as Matthew says.
c. The temple curtain was NEVER reported as spontaneously "rent" or split by any Jew of the time, an event which would have been talked about up and down Israel.
d. Most troubling, the CONTENT of the gospels fits with the content and concerns of Rabbinic Judaism at the END of the first century, not the early or mid first century.
e. The known "memes" of the time are all included, that were included in many if not most of all the other known messiah figures from the time. Dying and rising god, miracles, preaching, etc, etc.
f. There was no simple break from Judaism by Christianity. At the end of the 1st Century, The High Priest required the "Expulsion Curses" to be read in synagogues, as Jewish members of the "Way" sect (Christians) were causing trouble in the synagogues. This continues, at least in some places until the year 400 (at least). (St.) John Chrysostom, the bishop of Istanbul, in his Christmas sermon, (which we have a copy of), told/exhorted his congregation to stop going to the synagogues. The idea that with Jesus came a break from Judaism, is easily shown to be false.

There is just no reason to accept this one as real, and IF he was, the sentence from Acts from the followers "Wilt thou O Lord, at this time RESTORE THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL", means that even THEY (if any of them really existed, which is highly doubtful) never understood the Christian message to be anything other than the Apocalyptic Jewish-Messiah-Essene leader of the time ... men don't all of a sudden become great orators over-night, spouting within weeks of an event, HIGHLY developed theological systems (as Peter is made to do in Acts). It's all simply preposterous.

Do a search here for examinations of this topic. It's been done "to death" here. There is not a shred of evidence that a Jesus of Nazareth ever existed that cannot be debunked, or called into question. There is no final answer to this question, as such. The references provided in the OP are pretty old. (Carrier's objections are not dealt with). What DOES debunk the entire notion, is when one comes to understand the culture of the ancient Hebrews, (which is almost entirely mythical), and is completely antithetical to the core content of what most Christians consider their religion. One does not, IN ANY WAY, flow from the other.

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16-05-2016, 03:04 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(16-05-2016 10:51 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(22-04-2016 11:47 AM)102 Wrote:  So you've established that Jesus existed, as a historical figure. But that's only half the battle. Now you must figure out whether Jesus was the "son of God" as it is claimed by so many. Because this is such a huge issue, I believe it is important to establish a hard case on whether this historical figure was the son of God, rather than dismiss all the claims as false. If we do this, then the creationists will win. So we should give reasons for why we dismiss these claims.

Perhaps his followers hallucinated due to extreme emotions from his death, causing them to believe he rose from the dead. We see very clearly even today that his followers are devoted to him. Maybe the claims were made up later by early Christians, and no one at the time of this "messiah" actually thought he was the son of their god, or rose from the dead. Or maybe his followers knew that this Jesus did not rise from the dead, but made up the story anyway to establish a following.

Which do you think is more likely?

Not gonna help. At all.
In ancient Israel a "son of god" was a "righteous man". There were tons and tons of them with that appellation. Generals, priests, poiliticians, etc., etc. "Sons of god" were a dime a dozen.
You, IN NO WAY, "see that his followers were devoted to him". What you do see, are the texts that were *voted* into a canon, many many many years later, that attempt to portray that.
Christian professors of New Testament have written books about how the Resurrection story was misunderstood, ("The Trouble with Resurrection"), and indeed the (so called) events surrounding the entire
myth are troubling.
a. The Jewish Sanhedrin WAS NEVER ONCE, in all of history, called into session on Passover weekend. Never.
b. There were NEVER reports of 500 graves being emptied or bodies running around Jerusalem on Easter Sunday, or many "rocks split", as Matthew says.
c. The temple curtain was NEVER reported as spontaneously "rent" or split by any Jew of the time, an event which would have been talked about up and down Israel.
d. Most troubling, the CONTENT of the gospels fits with the content and concerns of Rabbinic Judaism at the END of the first century, not the early or mid first century.
e. The known "memes" of the time are all included, that were included in many if not most of all the other known messiah figures from the time. Dying and rising god, miracles, preaching, etc, etc.
f. There was no simple break from Judaism by Christianity. At the end of the 1st Century, The High Priest required the "Expulsion Curses" to be read in synagogues, as Jewish members of the "Way" sect (Christians) were causing trouble in the synagogues. This continues, at least in some places until the year 400 (at least). (St.) John Chrysostom, the bishop of Istanbul, in his Christmas sermon, (which we have a copy of), told/exhorted his congregation to stop going to the synagogues. The idea that with Jesus came a break from Judaism, is easily shown to be false.

There is just no reason to accept this one as real, and IF he was, the sentence from Acts from the followers "Wilt thou O Lord, at this time RESTORE THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL", means that even THEY (if any of them really existed, which is highly doubtful) never understood the Christian message to be anything other than the Apocalyptic Jewish-Messiah-Essene leader of the time ... men don't all of a sudden become great orators over-night, spouting within weeks of an event, HIGHLY developed theological systems (as Peter is made to do in Acts). It's all simply preposterous.

Do a search here for examinations of this topic. It's been done "to death" here. There is not a shred of evidence that a Jesus of Nazareth ever existed that cannot be debunked, or called into question. There is no final answer to this question, as such. The references provided in the OP are pretty old. (Carrier's objections are not dealt with). What DOES debunk the entire notion, is when one comes to understand the culture of the ancient Hebrews, (which is almost entirely mythical), and is completely antithetical to the core content of what most Christians consider their religion. One does not, IN ANY WAY, flow from the other.

I wasn't speaking about the authenticity of the Christian Bible, or whether or not Jesus was real. The original post was to ask, if we are to assume that Jesus existed historically (as suggested by the original post in this thread), then what case do we have to refute the claim of him being the son of God?

The "Jesus" depicted in the Bible not only is called the "son of God" (a typical position of honor), but also claimed to be a messiah.

You said that this particular messiah was just like the rest, so why think he is real? I would argue that he is not, since unlike the other "messiahs" of the time, his movement did not die out once he died.
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16-05-2016, 03:38 PM (This post was last modified: 16-05-2016 03:51 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(16-05-2016 03:04 PM)102 Wrote:  
(16-05-2016 10:51 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Not gonna help. At all.
In ancient Israel a "son of god" was a "righteous man". There were tons and tons of them with that appellation. Generals, priests, poiliticians, etc., etc. "Sons of god" were a dime a dozen.
You, IN NO WAY, "see that his followers were devoted to him". What you do see, are the texts that were *voted* into a canon, many many many years later, that attempt to portray that.
Christian professors of New Testament have written books about how the Resurrection story was misunderstood, ("The Trouble with Resurrection"), and indeed the (so called) events surrounding the entire
myth are troubling.
a. The Jewish Sanhedrin WAS NEVER ONCE, in all of history, called into session on Passover weekend. Never.
b. There were NEVER reports of 500 graves being emptied or bodies running around Jerusalem on Easter Sunday, or many "rocks split", as Matthew says.
c. The temple curtain was NEVER reported as spontaneously "rent" or split by any Jew of the time, an event which would have been talked about up and down Israel.
d. Most troubling, the CONTENT of the gospels fits with the content and concerns of Rabbinic Judaism at the END of the first century, not the early or mid first century.
e. The known "memes" of the time are all included, that were included in many if not most of all the other known messiah figures from the time. Dying and rising god, miracles, preaching, etc, etc.
f. There was no simple break from Judaism by Christianity. At the end of the 1st Century, The High Priest required the "Expulsion Curses" to be read in synagogues, as Jewish members of the "Way" sect (Christians) were causing trouble in the synagogues. This continues, at least in some places until the year 400 (at least). (St.) John Chrysostom, the bishop of Istanbul, in his Christmas sermon, (which we have a copy of), told/exhorted his congregation to stop going to the synagogues. The idea that with Jesus came a break from Judaism, is easily shown to be false.

There is just no reason to accept this one as real, and IF he was, the sentence from Acts from the followers "Wilt thou O Lord, at this time RESTORE THE KINGDOM TO ISRAEL", means that even THEY (if any of them really existed, which is highly doubtful) never understood the Christian message to be anything other than the Apocalyptic Jewish-Messiah-Essene leader of the time ... men don't all of a sudden become great orators over-night, spouting within weeks of an event, HIGHLY developed theological systems (as Peter is made to do in Acts). It's all simply preposterous.

Do a search here for examinations of this topic. It's been done "to death" here. There is not a shred of evidence that a Jesus of Nazareth ever existed that cannot be debunked, or called into question. There is no final answer to this question, as such. The references provided in the OP are pretty old. (Carrier's objections are not dealt with). What DOES debunk the entire notion, is when one comes to understand the culture of the ancient Hebrews, (which is almost entirely mythical), and is completely antithetical to the core content of what most Christians consider their religion. One does not, IN ANY WAY, flow from the other.

I wasn't speaking about the authenticity of the Christian Bible, or whether or not Jesus was real. The original post was to ask, if we are to assume that Jesus existed historically (as suggested by the original post in this thread), then what case do we have to refute the claim of him being the son of God?

The "Jesus" depicted in the Bible not only is called the "son of God" (a typical position of honor), but also claimed to be a messiah.

You said that this particular messiah was just like the rest, so why think he is real? I would argue that he is not, since unlike the other "messiahs" of the time, his movement did not die out once he died.

Actually it did. He was a Jewish Apocalyptic preacher. He said he did not come to CHANGE one iota of the Jewish Law. He said that the end times would come with in the lifetimes of himself and his followers. All the theological claptrap got added later, when the end did not come with the destruction of Jerusalem, in the Bar Kochba rebellion. St. Paul thought the end-times were immanent. His "movement" was radically changed to keep it alive. You have no evidence he claimed to be the "anointed one". That was a long process. He never said his purpose was to start a new movement. In Acts his (supposed) disciples asked him if he was going to restore the Kingdom to Israel. Typical. He never did that. It never happened. The "golden rule" (law) was the concern of most LATE 1st Century post-Diaspora Jewish Rabbis, not the unique teaching of Jesus ... so he has no "movement", and Christians identified themselves as Jews for centuries after he was executed. He never said he came to die for sins. When the young man in Matthew asked him what he had to do to get into heaven, he said "Keep the commandments". (Yawn). (See Ehrman's latest book.)

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16-05-2016, 05:29 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(16-05-2016 10:26 AM)102 Wrote:  Scientists are always looking for an explanation for strange phenomena, and I think the rapid spread of Christianity qualifies. Or does it? Why didn't other, similar cults at the time succeed, but this one did?


Scott Trotter, a spokeperson for the LDS Church, said that it took 117 years — from 1830 to 1947 — for the church to grow from six members to 1 million. It took only 16 more years to reach the two million-member mark in 1963, and eight more years to reach three million.


So if Christianity grew at the rate of the LDS Church since 1963, and the LDS Church started 2000 years ago, it would have had 5.3 billion members by now.

This from a guy that got his "holy scriptures" by talking into a hat.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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16-05-2016, 06:42 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(06-05-2011 01:23 AM)bird Wrote:  I believe that he was an actual person. Always thought he was, but not the son of god. It's kind of hard to get people to follow blindly like sheep without having an actual person to follow. Either way, his whole story is a load of shit.

If one reads what are supposedly the words of Jesus himself He says not to worship him, and when his besties asked him if he was the messiah, he said "Don't go telling people that!" I believe that his teachings are worth following without deciding he is god, I enjoy Leo Tsu's teachings also and he also said not to worship him.
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16-05-2016, 08:34 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
Except his so called followers were illiterate, Aramaic-speaking, peasants and whoever finally wrote those silly gospels were fairly well-educated Greek speakers.

At the very best...and this is not very useful at all...you are relying on oral traditions passed down for generations by word of mouth and finally being told to someone who was educated enough to write them down.

Not looking very promising for the "teachings" of the godboy.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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16-05-2016, 08:36 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(16-05-2016 10:26 AM)102 Wrote:  I know you are an atheist. Most of us on this site are, and you said that in a previous comment. "But I don't think Jesus was the literal son of a god, nor do I think he came back from the dead. I'm an atheist." I was simply requesting that we justify this position. Scientists are always looking for an explanation for strange phenomena, and I think the rapid spread of Christianity qualifies. Or does it? Why didn't other, similar cults at the time succeed, but this one did? In other words, why do you, all the atheists reading this, disagree with the establishment Christian masses about who "Jesus" really was? Just wanted to hear your opinions.


Ok, so let's assume for a moment that I grant that a person existed that served as the basis of the Jesus myth. Why do I think that said person is not accurately represented in the gospels?

The gospels were composed long after the death of Jesus and of anyone who would have been an eyewitness. This is true even under the most generous estimates for when they were composed. Moreover the current christian cannon was voted on by committee. Because matters of fact can be decided by popular voteDodgy. If you read other books that were left out very different pictures emerge of the Jesus character. Some are just as old as the oldest gospels.

Moreover we have good reasons to disbelieve the resurrection. Dead bodies CAN NOT move by their own power. A person whose brain has been deprived of oxygen loses the ability to move within minutes. In hours the receptors in the muscles break down and are gone within a day or so. There is NO physical mechanism by which a dead body can move. Now if people are claiming that a dead person got back up they need to explain the how.

The rapid spread is easily explained as well. Constantine. It was a small cult that appealed to the lower classes. It was one of many apocalyptic cults running around at the time. This one just happened to get lucky. Why do some people turn to scientology when they are adults? Or the Heaven's Gate thing? That just happens to be what happened. And for Constantine it was Christianity. If things had occurred differently we might be facing a different major religion. And there is no reason to think it wasn't just luck.
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16-05-2016, 09:04 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
There were many many (crazy) gospels. Constantine told them to cut down the number. The Church went after the ones they didn't like (The Gospel of Judas, The Gospel of Thomas, where they ask Jesus to make Mary of Magdala to turn her into a male, so she "could fully participate in the mysteries" Facepalm )

Irenaeus writes in Adversus Haereses: (Against Heresy)

The Gospels could not possibly be either more or less in number than they are. Since there are four zones of the world in which we live, and four principal winds, while the Church is spread over all the earth, and the pillar and foundation of the Church is the gospel, and the Spirit of life, it fittingly has four pillars, everywhere breathing out incorruption and revivifying men.

Facepalm

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