Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
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17-05-2016, 07:55 AM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
Is there anything specifically written that was supposedly the uttered words of Jesus that supports him speaking about Yahweh as the god he's referencing?
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17-05-2016, 08:59 AM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
Devil's Advocate. A fun game to play indeed.

Jesus was a Jewish preacher, if he existed. There is little doubt about that, except among certain particularly uneducated Christians. This figure seems to be recorded, by multiple sources, to preach about some sort of end times or apocalypse. As far as we know, he predicted that the "temple of God will be destroyed" which is something that apologists cite often as "proof" that Jesus had supernatural powers, since the temple in Jerusalem was burned by the Romans around 70 A.D. (this is historically certain). I did a quick bing search "When were the gospels written?" and this apologetics page was the first that came up: https://carm.org/when-were-gospels-written-and-by-whom . This website seems to claim that since the gospels did not speak of the temple being burned and attempt to say that "a prophecy has been fulfilled," therefore the gospels must have been written before 70 A.D., which would, if true, disprove natachan's statement about the gospels being written long after the lives of those who were eyewitnesses of the life of this 1st century Jewish teacher.

TheInquisition, good job at answering a question in a way that is mostly irrefutable. Most creationists would start raging uncontrollably right about now, trying to argue in my position.

I can't wait to see how you disprove this apologetic website and its claims. Were the gospels written before 70 C.E. and revised later? Were they written after 70 C.E. by a committee?

By the way, Bucky Ball, the "golden rule" was around for millenium, even before Jesus. Almost all the great religions have the "golden rule" in some way, shape, or form. Him speaking of the golden rule does not necessarily mean that the gospels were written late in the century. Did he "restore the kingdom to Israel"? Some Christians I've argued say that he did, in the form of the modern state of Israel, albeit almost 2000 years later. The core doctrine of Christianity does not say that Jesus' purpose was to start a new movement. He had come, according to them, to "Enlighten those that the messiah has come!" or something like that that.
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17-05-2016, 09:30 AM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
The golden rule = LBW.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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17-05-2016, 12:52 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(17-05-2016 08:59 AM)102 Wrote:  Devil's Advocate. A fun game to play indeed.

Jesus was a Jewish preacher, if he existed. There is little doubt about that, except among certain particularly uneducated Christians. This figure seems to be recorded, by multiple sources, to preach about some sort of end times or apocalypse. As far as we know, he predicted that the "temple of God will be destroyed" which is something that apologists cite often as "proof" that Jesus had supernatural powers, since the temple in Jerusalem was burned by the Romans around 70 A.D. (this is historically certain). I did a quick bing search "When were the gospels written?" and this apologetics page was the first that came up: https://carm.org/when-were-gospels-written-and-by-whom . This website seems to claim that since the gospels did not speak of the temple being burned and attempt to say that "a prophecy has been fulfilled," therefore the gospels must have been written before 70 A.D., which would, if true, disprove natachan's statement about the gospels being written long after the lives of those who were eyewitnesses of the life of this 1st century Jewish teacher.

TheInquisition, good job at answering a question in a way that is mostly irrefutable. Most creationists would start raging uncontrollably right about now, trying to argue in my position.

I can't wait to see how you disprove this apologetic website and its claims. Were the gospels written before 70 C.E. and revised later? Were they written after 70 C.E. by a committee?

By the way, Bucky Ball, the "golden rule" was around for millenium, even before Jesus. Almost all the great religions have the "golden rule" in some way, shape, or form. Him speaking of the golden rule does not necessarily mean that the gospels were written late in the century. Did he "restore the kingdom to Israel"? Some Christians I've argued say that he did, in the form of the modern state of Israel, albeit almost 2000 years later. The core doctrine of Christianity does not say that Jesus' purpose was to start a new movement. He had come, according to them, to "Enlighten those that the messiah has come!" or something like that that.

From the website you reference: Of important note is the lack of mention of the destruction of the Jewish temple in A.D. 70. But this is understandable since John was not focusing on historical events. Instead, he focused on the theological aspect of the person of Christ and listed His miracles and words that affirmed Christ's deity.

So, the gospels would focus on historical events except when they don't focus on historical events. Sheesh.
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17-05-2016, 01:09 PM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2016 06:16 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(17-05-2016 08:59 AM)102 Wrote:  Devil's Advocate. A fun game to play indeed.
Jesus was a Jewish preacher, if he existed. There is little doubt about that, except among certain particularly uneducated Christians. This figure seems to be recorded, by multiple sources, to preach about some sort of end times or apocalypse.

The gospels are not history .... in any way, and that is recognized by leading (nonfundie) scholars.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...index.html

Quote:As far as we know, he predicted that the "temple of God will be destroyed" which is something that apologists cite often as "proof" that Jesus had supernatural powers, since the temple in Jerusalem was burned by the Romans around 70 A.D. (this is historically certain). I did a quick bing search "When were the gospels written?" and this apologetics page was the first that came up: https://carm.org/when-were-gospels-written-and-by-whom .

We "know" nothing of the sort. All we know is that that ONE source wrote that in, it was copied by the other synoptics, and it was written post facto. They were not eye-witness testimony, and they were a fluid and reworked multiple time. They were works of EDITORS. No one can remember what someone said 40-50-60 years LATER.




Quote:By the way, Bucky Ball, the "golden rule" was around for millenium, even before Jesus. Almost all the great religions have the "golden rule" in some way, shape, or form. Him speaking of the golden rule does not necessarily mean that the gospels were written late in the century. Did he "restore the kingdom to Israel"? Some Christians I've argued say that he did, in the form of the modern state of Israel, albeit almost 2000 years later. The core doctrine of Christianity does not say that Jesus' purpose was to start a new movement. He had come, according to them, to "Enlighten those that the messiah has come!" or something like that that.

The modern DEMOCRATIC state is a "restoration" of nothing. For most of the history of Israel, it was TWO Kingdoms. Calling something by the same name, with no temple, and no Sanhedrin, no priests, ... is not "restoration". The fact that the Golden Rule was around for ages IN NO WAY indicates it was the concern of Jewish thought "for ages". In fact, we know why and when it started, in Judaism, AND the fact that it CHANGED and became the content of his (supposed) preaching, when it was NOT the concern of the other early 1st Century preachers, is very important, for dating literature.

The core content of Christianity says Jesus came to die and save sinners from sin. There is NOTHING in Judaism that Christianity flows from, nor was it EVER the job of the Jewish messiah figure to save anyone from sin. Why would it ? The ancient Hebrews didn't even buy personal immortality. Neither did St. Paul.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-05-2016, 04:45 AM
Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
For those unfamiliar with Thomas Jefferson's Bible, Jefferson combined all four Gospels into a single narrative and redacted all the miracles and other magical items. He did this in English, Latin French and Greek(?). The purpose was to try and isolate Jesus' teachings, but a side-effect was a much - more powerful story. The final sentence is almost poetry.

You can buy both the Smithsonian facsimile edition and various readers' editions on Amazon. I'd recommend a reader's edition, since the facsimile is an actual photocopy of the original, with the various translations "pasted" in columns next to each other on each page, for easy comparison.

Oh crap!
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18-05-2016, 01:30 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(17-05-2016 09:30 AM)Banjo Wrote:  The golden rule = LBW.

The Golden Rule was a staple of Greek philosophy since at least the mid 6th century BC. And probably much older.

[Image: quote-do-not-to-your-neighbor-what-you-w...-49-46.jpg]

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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18-05-2016, 01:42 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
I'm sure Asian religions had version of it before this :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_the_Dead
http://dwij.org/forum/amarna/2_cmndmts_b..._dead.html
but the point was, Rabbinic Judaism took an interest in "simplifying" the old law, in the decades after the diaspora, and destruction of the temple. The same interest Christianity took in simplifying the multitude of Jewish laws into two.
THAT simplification took place during a specific time.

BTW, it has nothing to do with "playing the devil's advocate". It's FACT that has to be explained.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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18-05-2016, 02:39 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(17-05-2016 01:09 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(17-05-2016 08:59 AM)102 Wrote:  Devil's Advocate. A fun game to play indeed.
Jesus was a Jewish preacher, if he existed. There is little doubt about that, except among certain particularly uneducated Christians. This figure seems to be recorded, by multiple sources, to preach about some sort of end times or apocalypse.

The gospels are not history .... in any way, and that is recognized by leading (nonfundie) scholars.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...index.html

Quote:As far as we know, he predicted that the "temple of God will be destroyed" which is something that apologists cite often as "proof" that Jesus had supernatural powers, since the temple in Jerusalem was burned by the Romans around 70 A.D. (this is historically certain). I did a quick bing search "When were the gospels written?" and this apologetics page was the first that came up: https://carm.org/when-were-gospels-written-and-by-whom .

We "know" nothing of the sort. All we know is that that ONE source wrote that in, it was copied by the other synoptics, and it was written post facto. They were not eye-witness testimony, and they were a fluid and reworked multiple time. They were works of EDITORS. No one can remember what someone said 40-50-60 years LATER.




Quote:By the way, Bucky Ball, the "golden rule" was around for millenium, even before Jesus. Almost all the great religions have the "golden rule" in some way, shape, or form. Him speaking of the golden rule does not necessarily mean that the gospels were written late in the century. Did he "restore the kingdom to Israel"? Some Christians I've argued say that he did, in the form of the modern state of Israel, albeit almost 2000 years later. The core doctrine of Christianity does not say that Jesus' purpose was to start a new movement. He had come, according to them, to "Enlighten those that the messiah has come!" or something like that that.

The modern DEMOCRATIC state is a "restoration" of nothing. For most of the history of Israel, it was TWO Kingdoms. Calling something by the same name, with no temple, and no Sanhedrin, no priests, ... is not "restoration". The fact that the Golden Rule was around for ages IN NO WAY indicates it was the concern of Jewish thought "for ages". In fact, we know why and when it started, in Judaism, AND the fact that it CHANGED and became the content of his (supposed) preaching, when it was NOT the concern of the other early 1st Century preachers, is very important, for dating literature.

The core content of Christianity says Jesus came to die and save sinners from sin. There is NOTHING in Judaism that Christianity flows from, nor was it EVER the job of the Jewish messiah figure to save anyone from sin. Why would it ? The ancient Hebrews didn't even buy personal immortality. Neither did St. Paul.

A question. Did you read the ORIGINAL post in this thread? It seems to indicate the existance of Jesus as a historical figure. Plus, I was going off the assumption that a historical Jesus existed, and requesting that you disprove him being the son of God.

That said, you have done a moderately good job of disproving him being the son of God. Now you have to disprove the first post in this thread before I can beleive the first two paragraphs in your response.

Now, it seems that we are both looking at this from different perspectives, you from an atheist perspective, and me trying to look at this from a Christian perspective. As a result, unless we adress the issue, this conversation will continue with no end in sight.

From your view, the Jewish thought did not shift to the "golden rule" until the late 1st century, and therefore Jesus must have lived in the late 1st century. This, however, is assuming that Jesus has to conform to Jewish thought of the time. This is a generally atheist view.

From my (intended) view, this presupposed Jesus did not have to conform to Jewish law.

We are arguing in circles. This argument against Jesus being the son of of God only works if you assume beforehand that he is not.

Who says Christianity has to "flow from Judaism" in its teachings? If he was really the son of God, wouldn't you expect it NOT to "flow" from any other religion?
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18-05-2016, 04:16 PM (This post was last modified: 18-05-2016 04:27 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(18-05-2016 02:39 PM)102 Wrote:  Now, it seems that we are both looking at this from different perspectives, you from an atheist perspective, and me trying to look at this from a Christian perspective. As a result, unless we address the issue, this conversation will continue with no end in sight.

Totally false. My view is an Historical ("proven by") view. It has nothing to do with atheism. It's ONLY about what historical sources can verify. There are no non-faith documents that say anything about a Jesus of Nazareth.

Quote:From your view, the Jewish thought did not shift to the "golden rule" until the late 1st century, and therefore Jesus must have lived in the late 1st century. This, however, is assuming that Jesus has to conform to Jewish thought of the time. This is a generally atheist view.

Nope. Clearly you are newbie at this. It's NOT an "atheist" anything, it's an argument flowing from ancient literature. It's a historical-literary argument.
If the content of a questionable preacher fits with the concerns of the late 1st century, and they date him, (with all sorts of impossible dates and false references, wrong Roman dates, false censuses that never happened), in the wrong part of the century....then I assume he never existed, and much later idiots made it all up.
Not one preacher ever, just pops out of no-where and starts preaching about what the people of the time are NOT concerned about.

Quote:Who says Christianity has to "flow from Judaism" in its teachings? If he was really the son of God, wouldn't you expect it NOT to "flow" from any other religion?

The first Christians were JEWS, for at least a century, if not far longer, and used Jewish concepts, ("messiah" "passover"). JESUS said he came to not abolish anything "until all things are accomplished".
Later Christianity is FAR different. it changed radically. It's almost not recognizable from the (supposed) preaching.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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