Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
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06-05-2011, 10:58 AM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
Hey, Monk.

Thanks for the info. I always thought that there was historical evidence of Jesus but I only thought I knew that. It's nice to have it confirmed.

You wrote:
Quote:On ANOTHER note, Everyone (cretards like the guy who sent me that crap in message) is acting like this is the jesus from the bible. Jesus is a name, just like Mark, et al, so it's not logical to conclude this is the one when it was written about so vaguely.
but
Quote:Jesus was crucified in Palestine under Pontius Pilate during the reign of Tiberius Caesar at Passover time, being considered the Jewish king.
isn't vague at all. And that's just one of the points that directly links the historical figure of Jesus to the story of Jesus in the Bible. That and his being from Nazareth and his followers believing he rose from the dead seems pretty slam dunk to me.

Hey, No. J.

I think the effect of Constantine's conversion on Christianity's power base is clear, but I don't think your theory about Constantine being the man behind the rapid rise of Christianity (as opposed to Jesus as proposed by ddahea) holds because Constantine only comes around 300 years after Christ (Emperor from 306 CE-337 CE).

Hey, djgenx7.

I agree. Unlikely that he's the son of God. I know Christian ministers who agree too. They simply view him, as I do, as a historical figure and an important philosopher. I think it's an interesting hypothesis (mine, not yours) that perhaps the reason that Jesus resembled previous Gods was an intentional device of Jesus, rather than part of the creation of his myth by others post-mortem. Maybe he was smarter than we give him credit for. But that’s speculation. Speaking of speculation, the delusions of grandeur thing is just speculation.

Hey, Hotrod.

Come on! You can't seriously be causally comparing Jesus of Nazareth to Adolph Hitler! That's just so outrageous and inflammatory that it must be called out. In the sense of Max Webber's tripartite classification of authority (authority simply being one of the three parts of power, the other two being influence and coercion), yes, Jesus used charismatic authority. But so do most men in and with power (and there should be zero debate that Jesus was a man of power). Hitler used charismatic authority, but he also used traditional authority and legal authority to a much more extensive degree than Jesus. Not to mention that Hitler based is message on fear of the Other (we are surrounded, their decadence erodes our culture, we have enemies within in the form of the Jews, the Jews are not us and will destroy us, we have been denied lands, we have been denied links to our cultural brothers in Austria, the Treaty of Versailles is unfair, we must band together...) while Jesus based his on love and forgiveness. You might as well compare MLK, Gandhi and Nelson Mandela to Hitler.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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06-05-2011, 09:13 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
Monk to answer your question, Josephus didnt write about jesus. The section of Josephus' writings didn't meantion jesus at all until about 400 year AFTER he wrote them, during the time christian scholars were writing more and more about jesus.
Aside from that it doesn't fit, in what is supposedly a writing of Josephus he claims jesus is his lord and savior, josephus was a Jewish king, if he had said that he would have been killed, and his works were openly available(to scholars and anyone who could read) plus the fact its in an entirely different section, he devoted entire sections of his books to the acclaimed Mesiahs of the day and never once mentioned jesus, then right in the middle of a chapter where he discusses how the jewish peoples were mad because the romans trashed their temples and tried to make them pay taxes it says a quick blurb about the holy mesiah who could cure all disease and walk on water and all those other wonderful magical things he does.

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/josephus-etal.html

The above site is very informative.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

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07-05-2011, 03:22 AM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(04-05-2011 08:24 PM)Monk Wrote:  The New Testament
The 27 New Testament books claim to be written by authors who either knew Jesus or received firsthand knowledge of him from others. The four Gospel accounts record Jesus' life and words from different perspectives. These accounts have been heavily scrutinized by scholars both inside Christianity and outside it.

Yeah, and guess what they found. Some of the books are anonymous, they don't claim to be written by anyone in particular. Many of the books are pseudonymous, they were not written by who they claim to be. Not even half are legitimate.
The 4 gospels included in the bible are pseudonymous, they were actually written by literate greeks, and given apostalic authority so they would be more readily accepted.
Paul actually wrote 7 out of 13 of the books attributed to him, including Romans and the Corinthians. The other 6 are pseudonymous.

Not only do the 4 gospels give his life and words from different perspectives, they also have different results. The Jesus portrayed in Mark is very angry, berating the people who ask for miracles, and getting angry at the disciples once or twice. The Jesus portrayed in Luke and Matthew is alot less angry, although less believably so. Matthew and Luke quote alot of writing directly from Mark, and change small sections and words, like from 'angry' to 'kind'. John seems to have been written irrespective of the other three, and portrays a slightly different series of events.

If it comes down to the historicity of Jesus, you lose.

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07-05-2011, 04:33 AM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
I think a rabbinical person named Jesus existed in Palestine. Remember, during this time, there were many teachers/healers/miracle workers running around that geographic space and time.

Jesus was no more divine than say, jim jones or David Koresh - each of whom had their adherents and devotees. The Christ legend was manufactured and manipulated along the way - first to serve the Jews, especially after the Romans sacked the temple in 70ad, then the Romans coopted the story with further embellishment.

The fact we continue to find heretical gospels that were not sanctioned for inclusion into the bible I think is proof of the mans footprint on earth. The gnostic gospels lay out as much - remember, the first 300 years of so of Christianity was the wild wild west - with several hundreds possibly of various Jesus cults proliferating across the Levant.

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07-05-2011, 09:53 AM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(07-05-2011 03:22 AM)daemonowner Wrote:  Not only do the 4 gospels give his life and words from different perspectives, they also have different results.
Perhaps this will help explain the reason for the differences in the gospels:

http://www.christiandoctrinediscussion.c...spels.html

God's invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
Romans 1:20 ESV

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07-05-2011, 03:42 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
@Theophilus

That addresses the variation in what the authors decided to write, but not the variation in the tales they all told.
In other words, it attempts to tell us why they wrote what they wrote, but it doesn't tell us why jesus reacts to certain things so differently, why the authors can't seem to get their story straight.
How many woman went to Jesus' tomb, who were they, was the tomb open, and who did they see at the tomb? The Gospels don't just tell different stories, they tell quite a few of the same ones but can't seem to agree on the details.

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended us to forego their use." - Galileo

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07-05-2011, 04:12 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(06-05-2011 10:58 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, No. J.

I think the effect of Constantine's conversion on Christianity's power base is clear, but I don't think your theory about Constantine being the man behind the rapid rise of Christianity (as opposed to Jesus as proposed by ddahea) holds because Constantine only comes around 300 years after Christ (Emperor from 306 CE-337 CE).

Before that, there was a period when christianity was an outlawed religion in Rome. I have also never come across any material that indicates that christianity spread quickly before that. The idea that christianity took off while jesus was still alive clashes with I have read in the past, so I am extremely skeptical.

As far as this impact that jesus’ life has on western culture, it is far more likely that the impact is a result of hundreds of thousands of people who promoted the story of him long after his death (if he ever lived). Just look at the way conspiracy theorists convince others to join their cause. Imagine a 2,000 year old conspiracy theory where the next generation takes over from the last generation, over and over again.

As it stands, I am not convinced that there was a real person called jesus. I am skeptical of the material brought forth here because of the number of fakes and forgeries that have been passed of by theists in the past.

When I find myself in times of trouble, Richard Dawkins comes to me, speaking words of reason, now I see, now I see.
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07-05-2011, 04:51 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(07-05-2011 04:12 PM)No J. Wrote:  As it stands, I am not convinced that there was a real person called jesus. I am skeptical of the material brought forth here because of the number of fakes and forgeries that have been passed of by theists in the past.

No J - you should try reading John Dominic Crossans' The Birth of Christianity sometime. Excellent book!

http://www.amazon.com/Birth-Christianity...0060616601

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07-05-2011, 05:58 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
I completely agree with No J. Christianity had a big boom when it became the new state religion in Roman Empire, it can't be more logical than that people.

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08-05-2011, 02:44 PM
RE: Jesus apparently existed outside of the bible..
(07-05-2011 03:42 PM)daemonowner Wrote:  How many woman went to Jesus' tomb, who were they, was the tomb open, and who did they see at the tomb? The Gospels don't just tell different stories, they tell quite a few of the same ones but can't seem to agree on the details.
When different people make independant reports of something they all saw there will be differences between them because different people notice different details and have different ideas about which details are significant. It is highly unlikely that any of the will report all of the details. This is the kind of difference we find in the gospels.

Each gospel names some women who went to the tomb but none of them claims it is a complete list. For example, John only mentions Mary Magdalene and at first it seems as if she went alone. But in John 20:2 she tells the disciples about the tomb being empty and says, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid him.” Her use of the word "we" shows there were others with her even though they weren't mentioned.

All of the differences in the gospel accounts are of this type. Here is a chronology of the events surrounding the resurrection:

http://carm.org/bible-difficulties/matth...chronology

The differences show that the writers of the gospel were writing independently rather than in collaboration and they also show that no one has tried to edit their accounts to make them conform to some church doctrine.

God's invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made.
Romans 1:20 ESV

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