Jesus died for our sins??
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16-10-2014, 12:59 PM
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
Substitutionary atonement (scapegoating) is completely immoral in every other situation. If I "sin" against anybody then I'm responsible for atoning for it. Killing a third party is simply barbaric.

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16-10-2014, 01:37 PM
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
(16-10-2014 12:54 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(16-10-2014 12:24 PM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  Can someone please give me a few sentences that explain why this makes no sense. Thanks

Can someone please give me a few sentences that explain why this makes any sense. Thanks

Yeah, this has always been a real head scratcher to me too. My question is, according to theists, did god create sin to test Adam and Eve? If god did create sin then...why? Why create people and then create sin as a stumbling block for your creations. Just....why? It says more about the manipulative personality of god than it does about his creations.

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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16-10-2014, 01:41 PM
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
(16-10-2014 12:51 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  After the Second Temple was destroyed around 70 CE, and Jerusalem was pretty much sacked and destroyed during the Bar Kochba revolt in the early to mid Second Century, the apocalyptic dreams of the sub-sect of Jews called "The Way" (ie Christians) had to justify the continuation of their sect, and how to make sense of the death of its (supposed) founder. Granting "metaphysical" meaning ("forgiveness of sin") served that purpose. Trouble is, "personal purification" (from persaonl state of sin) is more of a Zoroastrian idea than Hebrew ("ritual") purity one. It doesn't really make any sense for many reasons. It's cooked-up woo.

I didn't know any of that. Where did you learn that. I'd like to look into it
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16-10-2014, 01:46 PM
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
(16-10-2014 12:51 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  After the Second Temple was destroyed around 70 CE, and Jerusalem was pretty much sacked and destroyed during the Bar Kochba revolt in the early to mid Second Century, the apocalyptic dreams of the sub-sect of Jews called "The Way" (ie Christians) had to justify the continuation of their sect, and how to make sense of the death of its (supposed) founder. Granting "metaphysical" meaning ("forgiveness of sin") served that purpose. Trouble is, "personal purification" (from persaonl state of sin) is more of a Zoroastrian idea than Hebrew ("ritual") purity one. It doesn't really make any sense for many reasons. It's cooked-up woo.

It's like meta woo. Woo piled on woo. You get really weird results when you do that. Also, really weird apologetics, after the fact.

"No, you don't get it. He didn't sacrifice himself to himself. The Son died to appease the Father, but they're both part of the same Godhead. No, they're not three gods. It's three entities, one Godhead. Why is this so hard to understand?"
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16-10-2014, 01:51 PM
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
(16-10-2014 12:35 PM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  I understand all that. I guess I should have clarified. The idea that we "caught" original sin- then behaved how we were programmed, so to speak - then god killed everyone (flood) then we were still bad so god sacrificed himself to himself based on rules he created. I wanted a better way of saying that

But you just did and quite concisely. Smile.


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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16-10-2014, 01:56 PM (This post was last modified: 16-10-2014 02:02 PM by CleverUsername.)
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
Imagine kicking a litter of puppies out of your house into a hail storm for eating the chicken nugget you left sitting on a plate on the floor, and then, after a few of them die, deciding you want them back in, but refusing let them in until you broke your own hand in a way that would cause temporary pain but not actual prohibit your use of said hand.

Any problems you can find with that scenario can also be applied to "Jesus died for our sins" story.

Popcorn I put more thought into fiction than theists put into reality.
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16-10-2014, 03:01 PM
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
(16-10-2014 01:46 PM)RobbyPants Wrote:  
(16-10-2014 12:51 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  After the Second Temple was destroyed around 70 CE, and Jerusalem was pretty much sacked and destroyed during the Bar Kochba revolt in the early to mid Second Century, the apocalyptic dreams of the sub-sect of Jews called "The Way" (ie Christians) had to justify the continuation of their sect, and how to make sense of the death of its (supposed) founder. Granting "metaphysical" meaning ("forgiveness of sin") served that purpose. Trouble is, "personal purification" (from persaonl state of sin) is more of a Zoroastrian idea than Hebrew ("ritual") purity one. It doesn't really make any sense for many reasons. It's cooked-up woo.

It's like meta woo. Woo piled on woo. You get really weird results when you do that. Also, really weird apologetics, after the fact.

"No, you don't get it. He didn't sacrifice himself to himself. The Son died to appease the Father, but they're both part of the same Godhead. No, they're not three gods. It's three entities, one Godhead. Why is this so hard to understand?"

Aquinas said if you *say* you understand the Trinity, you're lying. They knew there was something screwy with it. It was one of the longest hotly debated arguments in the councils.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-10-2014, 03:04 PM
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
(16-10-2014 01:41 PM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  
(16-10-2014 12:51 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  After the Second Temple was destroyed around 70 CE, and Jerusalem was pretty much sacked and destroyed during the Bar Kochba revolt in the early to mid Second Century, the apocalyptic dreams of the sub-sect of Jews called "The Way" (ie Christians) had to justify the continuation of their sect, and how to make sense of the death of its (supposed) founder. Granting "metaphysical" meaning ("forgiveness of sin") served that purpose. Trouble is, "personal purification" (from persaonl state of sin) is more of a Zoroastrian idea than Hebrew ("ritual") purity one. It doesn't really make any sense for many reasons. It's cooked-up woo.

I didn't know any of that. Where did you learn that. I'd like to look into it

That's like asking Pee Wee where he learned comedy. Weeping
Let me think about some references.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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16-10-2014, 03:10 PM
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
It was a post-hoc rationalization by Paul to tie his messiah into the Old Testament.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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16-10-2014, 03:35 PM
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
A bad weekend does not a death make.
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