Jesus died for our sins??
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16-10-2014, 04:02 PM
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
Essentially it comes across as a really weird oxymoron.

I suppose it could be loosely termed as a need to let go of evil aspects to become renewed.....but Jesus was meant to be perfectly good.

One of the really dumb religious explanations is that Jesus had to pay Satan for our release.
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16-10-2014, 05:16 PM
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
(16-10-2014 12:35 PM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  I understand all that. I guess I should have clarified. The idea that we "caught" original sin- then behaved how we were programmed, so to speak - then god killed everyone (flood) then we were still bad so god sacrificed himself to himself based on rules he created. I wanted a better way of saying that

Christians can bypass the original sin question with Romans 3:21-26:
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in[h] Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.

By asserting that all have sinned they can imply that all have chosen sin and deserve death for their crimes. You can go back to why humans would have this "sin nature" and answer, but when the reader who trusts the Bible reflects on their own life they will generally find this shallow explanation adequate and admit that they have not at all times acted like their best self would have.

That's the kernel of truth wrapped up in this myth, I think. Why are we sinners? That's a mystery. Why would Jesus's bad weekend absolve us of our sin or be needed to absolve us of our sin? That's a mystery. Have we fallen short of our best selves (coded as: "fallen short of the glory of God")? Yes! That's a simple question with a simple answer, and the assertion of the author of Romans is fairly accurate in that respect. That's the kernel of truth that is used to try and make you unquestioningly swallow the rest.

You have fallen short of your best self, but it's ok. We have a community here that is willing to accept you despite your flaws.
That's the central sell of Christianity and similar religions.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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16-10-2014, 05:20 PM
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
(16-10-2014 12:24 PM)Chrisinfp Wrote:  Can someone please give me a few sentences that explain why this makes no sense. Thanks

Here you go, read and absorb. A paper I wrote on this that may help you understand their perspective of this in accordance with christian doctrine. For every one else, sorry about the spam.

-------------------------------------
E############
Professor V##########
Christian Spirituality Vision REL 123
####### 2014

The relationship between incarnation and atonement

To contemplate the relationship between incarnation and atonement, with special emphasis on Anselm’s idea of satisfaction, we must first look at what incarnation and atonement means to those of the Christian faith. Incarnation is continual in that our redemption depends on the reality that the eternal son of God came to us as a man. If he did not come fully down, then we are not fully saved (Dawson 5-6). Since Jesus became what we are, accepting our very humanity and God crossed the gap between human and deity, and he overcame our sin and came to live on our behalf. He chose to leave a faithful life that was beyond our capacity, but required by the Father.

The very obedience of Jesus led him to die on the cross as penalty for human sin. Not only did he die for us, but he gave us new life for salvation, and salvation depends on our continuing union with him. The Incarnation is basically a fundamental theological teaching of Christianity, based on its understanding of the New Testament. The Incarnation represents the Christian belief that Jesus, who is the second part of the triune, God, took on a human body and became both man and deity. This can be seen in the Bible in John 1:14: "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us” (Bible – King James version – John). The Christians worldview is rooted in the incarnation of Jesus Christ, the belief that Jesus is God in human in one person (Mueller 141).

Atonement is a theological theory which describes human being’s reconciliation with God. This atonement is basically the forgiveness of sin through the death and resurrection of Jesus. This voluntary sacrifice by Jesus made possible the reconciliation between man and God. “God so loved the world, and gave his only begotten son” (Bible – King James version – John 3:16). This Scripture verse highlights the source of atonement by the very provision of God’s love. It is the love of God the father that Paul has in view when he speaks of him who “spared not his own son, but delivered him up for us all” (Bible – King James version – Romans 8:32). Surely God could have saved man by other means then allowing his only son to die, since God is all-powerful, other ways of forgiving sin were available to him. Some view the very necessity of his great self-sacrifice magnified his glory and enhanced the precise character of the salvation bestowed (Murray 12). Salvation requires not only the forgiveness of sin but also justification. Sin is the contradiction of God he must react against it with holy wrath demonstration of Christ on the cross is the ultimate demonstration of the love of God. The very nature of the atonement requires that it contains obedience, sacrifice, propitiation, reconciliation and redemption.

Obedience is a compilation of motive, purpose, direction and intention, of which Christ was the epitome of obedience and discharge of God’s will in its increasing demands leading up to his inevitable sacrificial death. Sacrifice is the removal of sin liability via the transference of liability itself. Propitiation; to pacify, and Christ’s propitiation to God was to deal with the wrath so that those loved would no longer be the objects of wrath, and God’s love would be eternal. Reconciliation is concerned with our alienation from God, and the inherent need to have that alienation removed. Redemption by Jesus’ blood, “Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation” (Bible – King James version – revelations 5:9).

This atonement can be broken down into various theories, one of which is the satisfaction theory of atonement, developed by Anselm of Canterbury (1033 – 1109). Anselm posited that sin unbalanced the order of justice in the universe. Once a sin has been performed, something good must be done in order to restore the balance. For example, a sin is incurrence of debt to God, the source of order, and that debt must be paid through true repentance (Albl 271). The work of Christ is to repair the breach human sin introduced into the relationship between humanity and God. Anselm argued in Cur Deus Homo that this work can be accomplished only by a God-man; one person equally divine and human. This doctrine of Christ is commonly called “Chalcedonian Christology” because it was created by the Council of Chalcedon in 451 CE (Visser 213).

One cannot explain the incarnation by appeal to any supposed obligation on God’s part to respect the devil’s rights over humanity. Since the devil had no such rights, so it appears that God would not have been acting unjustly if he had just delivered human beings the power of the devil by fiat. What reason did God have to redeemed mankind and the way he did, given that he was not under any obligation to do so? Anselm suggests that since we know God’s will is never irrational, we can be confident that God had some reason for doing what he did, even if we do not see or understand what the reason is (Visser 214).

Anselm believed he could prove, by unavoidable logical steps, that Christ was removed from the case, as if there had never existed anything to do with him, is it possible that without him mankind could have been saved (Anselm 261 – 262). A foundation of Christianity is that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins (Bible – King James version –1 Cor 15:3). In this way he fulfilled the old covenant sacrificial system, reconciled us to God, and changed our lives forever. This is the doctrine of the atonement (Mattison 1). At this point the author makes a faith claim, or commonly known as a knowledge claim, by positing “its reality is not in dispute”. I must interject here the whole subject is in dispute, and has been the center of debate for centuries. The author’s mere assertion in a knowledge claim that the atonement “reality” is not in dispute does not make it true. It does however assert that the atonement theory is an essential foundation of Christian religious belief. The author goes on to say, “we know that the atonement works; but how it works is not as clear.” Again, a knowledge claim is made; we have zero proof that the atonement works, at best it is a comforting theory for the faithful to cling to in order to validate their faith to themselves.

“The Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many” (Bible –King James version – Matthew 20:28). The statement suggests that Jesus gave his life as an extreme expression of love for mankind. Iranaeus of Lyons argued that Jesus was paid as the ransom to the devil free people’s souls. This view was known as the ransom or classic theory. The ransom theory was the dominant theological theory for centuries until dismantled by Anselm of Canterbury. He pointed out that this theory empowered the devil too much, and he posited that Jesus’s life was ransom paid to God, not the devil. Anselm viewed sin as dishonorable conduct that went against God. Since God cannot ignore this conduct, a debt or “satisfaction” is required. Since mankind is unable to make the requisite level of satisfaction, God became human to do it on our behalf. Thus, Jesus was payment to God, not the devil. But since Jesus was part of the triune god, did god merely appease himself?

The church leaders developed doctrine to reflect Jesus Christ’s fulfilling of God’s will through active obedience, vice his passive obedience through death. Basically, God requires mankind to obey and live a life of perpetual obedience (Mattison 1). This endless cycle of perpetual intellectual and spiritual slavery upon birth, where we continuously strive to bow and scrape in deference to our alleged creator’s self-centered will and ego, is hardly what a thinking person would presume a deity of such universe and life creating power, would be so obsessed with. What kind of immature supreme being would create all of this, create life, destroy life, send part of his own “body” down in the form of a man through immaculate conception, so he can die on our behalf to satisfy God’s ego requirement for sacrifice. I don’t purport to understand the consciousness of this alleged magical creature, but it is hard to conceive such childish, disingenuous manipulation of life for the entertainment of itself. This dramatic, over thought, contrite, anthropocentric theory must be the creation of man’s imagination. How could it be anything else?

In summary, this complex, dramatic Christian theological concept is obviously a fabrication of much thought, and introspective philosophy. Perhaps they could have put all that time and effort into something more constructive. Creating a subservient, subjugative crutch for people with low mental resilience, apparent inability to use reason and logic to comprehend the world around them, and wild imaginations seems unnecessary. In my opinion, religion and faith block the believer’s ability to utilize appropriate epistemological methods to process and gain knowledge.


Works Cited:

Mattison, Mark. “The Meaning of the Atonement.” Mark Mattison. 1987. Web. Retrieved from http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/atonement.html

Anselm, Evans, G. R., The Major Works. New York: Oxford University Press, Inc, 1998. Print.

Visser, Sandra and Williams, Thomas, Anselm. New York: Oxford University Press, Inc, 2009. Print.

Murray, John, The Atonement. Evansville: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1976. Print.

Mueller, J.J., Theological Foundations: Concepts and Methods for Understanding the Christian Faith. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2011. Print.

Albl, Martin C. Reason, Faith, and Tradition: Explorations in Catholic Theology. Winona: Anselm Academic, Christian Brothers Publications, 2009. Print.

The Catholic Study Bible: The New American Bible 2nd ed. Oxford: Oxford University press, Inc., 2011. Print.

Dawson, Gerrit S. Jesus Ascended: The Meaning of Christ’s Continuing Incarnation. New Jersey: P&R publishing, 2004. Print.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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16-10-2014, 08:35 PM
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
I was having lunch with an evangelical friend the other day, and he brought up this topic. I asked him: if, as you believe, gawd is all-knowing and all-powerful, then gawd knew man would screw up (fall, original sin, blather, bollocks, etc) before "creating" us; therefore, doesn't the ultimate responsibility lie with him/her/it?

His response was: free-will.

Ya, but gawd would have foreseen that, ergo, it's all gawd's fault. Which, then, is why he had to sacrifice himself, to himself, to forgive himself. Cuz an all-powerful gawd needs to do to forgive its gawdself, and can't just divinely make it happen. Simple.

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16-10-2014, 11:32 PM
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
Quote:To be more precise, Jesus died to remove original sin and to allow that our own sins can be forgiven, thereby enabling heaven to be at least possible for us.


It's pretty much the stupidest fucking story ever concocted.

Takes a total moron to believe it.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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17-10-2014, 12:07 AM (This post was last modified: 17-10-2014 12:20 AM by Chas.)
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
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Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-10-2014, 01:06 AM
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
he died for everyone sins because his daddy loved him and us so much that the only way he could show it to us by forgiving us was by sacrificing his own kid

and the sin we're all guilty is our great great great...... grandparents ate an apple

nothing really makes sense, sin is stupid
the sacrifice and coming back to life is stupid



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17-10-2014, 01:11 AM
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
(17-10-2014 01:06 AM)Ace Wrote:  http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ife-for-us

Not 3 days, it was not quite 2 days: Friday mid-day to Sunday morning is less than 48 hours.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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17-10-2014, 01:45 AM
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
I'll let my house get broken into and all my stuff stolen as my sacrifice so that none of your houses will get broken in to.

So Jesus saved me from something that doesn't exist. Quite the sacrifice.
I think I'll save you all from the Borg by clipping my toe nails. Not as dramatic as dying, but it has the same effect.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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17-10-2014, 01:51 AM
RE: Jesus died for our sins??
(17-10-2014 01:11 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-10-2014 01:06 AM)Ace Wrote:  http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ife-for-us

Not 3 days, it was not quite 2 days: Friday mid-day to Sunday morning is less than 48 hours.

less than 2 days ? that would explain why no one noticed the smell of decomposing flesh when he came back
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