Jesus doesn't change people
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08-06-2015, 10:29 AM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(08-06-2015 10:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 09:57 AM)Mr. Boston Wrote:  This is one area where I tend not to "correct" people's view of the divine and supernatural. If you kicked heroin and you're doing your best to get your life together and be a parent to your kids, etc. and you want to believe Jesus helped give you the strength to make that happen, who would I be to try and convince you otherwise? I'd say that in most cases most people are better off discarding the supernatural and acknowledging that their own inner strength makes them capable of great things.

I think there's more to Jesus helping them than putting some magical powder in their soup. Because the sort of Goodness, the sort of life, that the believer here is striving to emulate and be a part of, is that which Jesus to them embodies, the model, the ideal, the representation of the Good. Zacchaeus sees Jesus as a man who has a fellowship with his community that he wants to be a part of, in which Christ extends to him as well. He repents and commits to amending his wrongs. Can he say this was the result of his inner strength? Of course not, because he was a man who succumbed to his weakness, but it was by the grace offered to him, that he's able to partake and become whole.

He cannot thank himself, anymore so than a man who puts a noose around his brother's neck, can thank himself for removing it.

Jebus has nothing to do with it. For millenia, humans have embodied their ideas in religious concpets. There is no evidence for "grace". People who grow up in a culture are aware they might not be lliving (up) to their OWN learned ideals which they got from their culture. Some people change. Some people have no other way of thinking or talking about behavioal changes except in religious terms. You seem to be among those.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-06-2015, 10:44 AM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(08-06-2015 10:29 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 10:18 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  I think there's more to Jesus helping them than putting some magical powder in their soup. Because the sort of Goodness, the sort of life, that the believer here is striving to emulate and be a part of, is that which Jesus to them embodies, the model, the ideal, the representation of the Good. Zacchaeus sees Jesus as a man who has a fellowship with his community that he wants to be a part of, in which Christ extends to him as well. He repents and commits to amending his wrongs. Can he say this was the result of his inner strength? Of course not, because he was a man who succumbed to his weakness, but it was by the grace offered to him, that he's able to partake and become whole.

He cannot thank himself, anymore so than a man who puts a noose around his brother's neck, can thank himself for removing it.

Jebus has nothing to do with it. For millenia, humans have embodied their ideas in religious concpets. There is no evidence for "grace". People who grow up in a culture are aware they might not be lliving (up) to their OWN learned ideals which they got from their culture. Some people change. Some people have no other way of thinking or talking about behavioal changes except in religious terms. You seem to be among those.

Jesus could have a significant part to do with this, by encapsulating a model to emulate. Of course you could say that christians, or religious people are "taught" to see him as the model. Perhaps like how some folks might look up to athletes or celebrities, or popular scientist, as a model, attempting to imitate in their own lives, their lives.
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08-06-2015, 10:44 AM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2015 11:52 AM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(08-06-2015 09:29 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 08:58 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  It does however assert that the atonement theory is an essential foundation of Christian religious belief. The author goes on to say, “we know that the atonement works; but how it works is not as clear.” Again, a knowledge claim is made; we have zero proof that the atonement works, at best it is a comforting theory for the faithful to cling to in order to validate their faith to themselves.

Before you say there's zero proof that atonement works, we'd probably have to wonder about that thing that others are referring to as evident of it working. And here for the most part it seemed to be in regards to the changed lives of certain believers.

"I gang-banged, messed up, rolled queers. I’ve stuck the blade all the way in and felt a heart flutter like a pigeon on the end of my poker ‘n’ I felt no remorse. Until I found Jesus Christ” - the writer Richard Rodriguez recalling a testimony of an ex-gang member at Evangelical Victory Outreach Church.

To make the best use of a secular language, it's this sort of "moral transformation", that's the point of reflection for Anselm, of atonement working, the transformation of the lives of those early believers in the wake of Christ's death, though they don't particularly know why this had transformed their lives, they just know in reflection of it, it did. Anselm just like the new testaments and reflecting on the profound and transformative effect Jesus death and life had on them.

I don't think the why here needs to be appealed to magically. The death of loved ones, often has a profound effect on us. The martyr victim, folks of Rev. King, often illicit a sort of self-selfection and reconsideration on one's life, perhaps even changing one's own commitments to those things which are good, to the causes and sense of life these men advocated for.

The statement "atonement works" implied to me that the incarnation and atonement theory as perpetuated by jesus's alleged knowingly sacrificing himself for man's endless original sin is real. The placebo effect is absolutely a potential contributor to people's statement that the atonement worked for them...That same weak sauce argument can be used for a plethora of delusional beliefs....ISIS has absorbed many well to do, educated young female members who proclaim on social media daily how wonderful jihad is, how the faith has made their life perfect, and they have never felt so close to god.....yeah......self delusion has been proven to work when combined with influential and charismatic leaders upon the gullible...Jim Jones massacre, heaven's gate cult, scientology, ISIS, and yes....followers of jesus.

No different then the faith claim: "prayer works, I know, my aunt jammy was dying of cancer, we prayed and the next day she suddenly took a turn for the better, praise jesus!" This is NOT an indication that prayer works, but it is an indicator people will foolishly believe anything...when desperate enough.

Recognizing the positive effects from the acceptance of lies, fabrication, forgery, fiction and fantasy is not the litmus test for intelligent living in the adult world. As adults, we should be able to craft conditions in which we can flourish, without the blindfold of religion. Understanding this life is all we have, makes one want to make it worth living. Celebrating the latest BS prophesy of end times just indicates the lunacy of creationists obsession with life after death, and their wish to make that magical event come sooner rather than later.

I do understand it is a nice philosophy to have to believe you can...I dunno, sexually molest 4 of your sisters and just wave that aside with some prayer, circle of hands and a whispered "forgive me father for I have sinned" VOILA! heaven bound you still are.

Religion is not the cure, it is the disease.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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08-06-2015, 10:55 AM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2015 11:03 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(08-06-2015 10:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 10:29 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Jebus has nothing to do with it. For millenia, humans have embodied their ideas in religious concpets. There is no evidence for "grace". People who grow up in a culture are aware they might not be lliving (up) to their OWN learned ideals which they got from their culture. Some people change. Some people have no other way of thinking or talking about behavioal changes except in religious terms. You seem to be among those.

Jesus could have a significant part to do with this, by encapsulating a model to emulate. Of course you could say that christians, or religious people are "taught" to see him as the model. Perhaps like how some folks might look up to athletes or celebrities, or popular scientist, as a model, attempting to imitate in their own lives, their lives.

Jesus is a "meme". Nothing more. Modern humans for the most part, know NOTHING about the history of what they claim is their religion. All they know are the "nice Jebus stories" from Sunday School, if even that. If the meme works for some, well then memes work. Duh. Jebus is not real, and the mythical Jebus preacher dude has no relevance in 2015.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-06-2015, 10:59 AM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(08-06-2015 10:55 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 10:44 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Jesus could have a significant part to do with this, by encapsulating a model to emulate. Of course you could say that christians, or religious people are "taught" to see him as the model. Perhaps like how some folks might look up to athletes or celebrities, or popular scientist, as a model, attempting to imitate in their own lives, their lives.

Jesus is a "meme". Nothing more. Modern humans for the most part, know NOTHING about the history of what they claim is their religion. All they know are the "nice Jebus stories" from Sunday School, if weven that. If the meme works for some, well then memes work. Duh. Jebus is not real, and the mythical Jebus preacher dude has no relevance in 2015.

Dude, I rubbed my magic lucky rabbit foot and wished I had a car while I was walking down the road, and suddenly a car stopped beside me and offered me a ride! I swear! it really happened....lucky rabbits feet is for real...truly. Now I know my belief in this simplistic BS is asinine, and an illogical way to live, walking around rubbing a soggy dead rabbits foot in my pocket all day while whispering to myself...but it makes me happy! Thus it has value, thus it must be true! Yes

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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08-06-2015, 11:30 AM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(08-06-2015 10:44 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  The statement "atonement works" implied to me that the incarnation and atonement theory as perpetuated by jesus's alleged knowingly sacrificing himself for man's endless original sin

The working aspect is an observation of the effect, not an explanation of the cause, or a theory of atonement. The explanation, the theory, the theology, is what Anslem refers to as unclear: “but how it works is not as clear.” This aspect acknowledged in Catholic theology as well: “they look on to the result before staying to consider the means by which it was accomplished.”

Anslem’s acknowledgements was in regard to the uncertainty of any particular atonement theory, while acknowledging the transformative effect, absent of this. Or in other words, it’s sort of like taking a pill, and acknowledging that it clearly healed a person, while acknowledging you’re not too sure about the mechanics or biology behind it. This is not appealing to anything supernatural. We’re talking about early believers reflecting on the transformative effect of Jesus's life, death and resurrection had on them.

Quote:The placebo effect is absolutely a potential contributor to people's statement that the atonement worked for them.

It’s not a placebo effects, anymore so than a man who’s life gets turned around by the death of his beloved mother, is a victim of a placebo effect. We can dismiss all the supernatural stuff as hogwash, and speak entirely in terms of naturalism, and we still wouldn’t be speaking of a placebo effect.

Quote:ISIS has absorbed many well to do, educated young female members who proclaim on social media daily how wonderful jihad is, how the faith has made their life perfect, and they have never felt so close to god.....yeah

And they are not lying. ISIS offers an earthly fulfillment a fellowship, a life of danger and excitement and brotherhood, and often lives up to their promises, more than any military recruiter. After watching a VICE documentary of ISIS, you can see why they are so attractive and appealing. Give a young disenfranchised muslim the life of liberal suburbia, and the life of an islamic fighter, it’s not that hard to see which one is more appealing. The life they find, is one as close to living as it gets.

Quote:Understanding this life is all we have, makes one want to make it worth living.

Another motto that no one actually believes. And hardly anyone looks upon those who subscribe to it, as lives to envy, or see as worth living. We’re not all in line to one day acquire the life of Sam Harris, or Richard Dawkins, or some other old and stuffy white guy. Perhaps for many atheists these are their models. But the appeal is reserved for a small piece of the pie.

Quote:Religion is not the cure, it is the disease.

If we’re going to reject religion, let’s reject all those impulses and inclinations which religions of old are likely the source of. Let us recognize in this all there is, that it’s all just smoke and mirrors. There are no diseases to cure. No supremacy of one way of life over the other. Perhaps your life works for you, while the life of a jihadi works for them. Perhaps they find your life pathetic, and excruciatingly boring , while you find their life hideous. Perhaps we should acknowledge the insignificance and meaningless of life, and recognize that we are just free floating looking for things to live for, to impassion and occupy our lives with. For some this is violence, war, a soldier’s life, living and dying for a cause, for others it’s looking for the next swinger’s party. There are no judges here. No right ways of life, or wrong ways of life, it’s all just different forms of living, different shoes, fitting comfortably for some, and uncomfortable for others. Stop wondering about saving the world, just start living, by not giving a fuck about it.
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08-06-2015, 11:34 AM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(08-06-2015 11:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Stop wondering about saving the world, just start living, by not giving a fuck about it.

Yes

#sigh
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08-06-2015, 11:47 AM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2015 11:56 AM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(08-06-2015 11:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  If we’re going to reject religion, let’s reject all those impulses and inclinations which religions of old are likely the source of. Let us recognize in this all there is, that it’s all just smoke and mirrors. There are no diseases to cure. No supremacy of one way of life over the other. Perhaps your life works for you, while the life of a jihadi works for them. Perhaps they find your life pathetic, and excruciatingly boring , while you find their life hideous. Perhaps we should acknowledge the insignificance and meaningless of life, and recognize that we are just free floating looking for things to live for, to impassion and occupy our lives with. For some this is violence, war, a soldier’s life, living and dying for a cause, for others it’s looking for the next swinger’s party. There are no judges here. No right ways of life, or wrong ways of life, it’s all just different forms of living, different shoes, fitting comfortably for some, and uncomfortable for others. Stop wondering about saving the world, just start living, by not giving a fuck about it.

Holy shit you figured it out. *standing ovation*

Yes

That is why we have laws, societal norms, no made up boogey man or timeless watcher in the sky needed. Now the implication you just made of "anarchy will rule" is disingenuous, the world wont fall apart without religion, in fact it will be far better. Simply look at the Scandinavian countries that are secular. Here you have civilized principles, high family values, low crime, good health, and they enjoy being at the top rank of ranked civilizations in the world...all without god..do I really have to layout the examples of religious majority countries and all of their inherent issues?

Go read Society without God by sociologist Phil Zuckerman, it will be quite enlightening. He went to study this godless society thinking it would show how negative the lack of religion has on people lives and culture and discovered just the opposite. Go figure

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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08-06-2015, 11:52 AM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(08-06-2015 11:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It’s not a placebo effects, anymore so than a man who’s life gets turned around by the death of his beloved mother, is a victim of a placebo effect. We can dismiss all the supernatural stuff as hogwash, and speak entirely in terms of naturalism, and we still wouldn’t be speaking of a placebo effect.

You have no clue what it is that really works. And "placebo effects" are very real. They are experienced as REAL.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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08-06-2015, 12:37 PM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
I particularly dislike this using of jesus as a 'crutch' for life problems instead dealing with your actual problems head on.

The root causes for things like addiction to drugs, alcohol, gambling or predisposition to violence, domestic violence and/or gang banging can be extremely complex. Filling them in with 'jebus' and expecting them to go away is a recipe for disaster.

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too"? - Douglas Adams Bechased
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