Jesus doesn't change people
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08-06-2015, 12:40 PM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(08-06-2015 11:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
Quote:Understanding this life is all we have, makes one want to make it worth living.

Another motto that no one actually believes. And hardly anyone looks upon those who subscribe to it, as lives to envy, or see as worth living. We’re not all in line to one day acquire the life of Sam Harris, or Richard Dawkins, or some other old and stuffy white guy. Perhaps for many atheists these are their models. But the appeal is reserved for a small piece of the pie.

Why do you say nobody believes it? It is the existentialist response to the pessimistic nihilism of Schopenhauer and is rather indistinguishable from the active nihilism of Nietszche. Rest assured that whatever meaning you find or ascribe to your life it doesn't exist outside of your own imagination be it God or Bob. If you cannot find cause to celebrate your impermanence then by all means soothe yourself with some bullshit promise of a postmortem preservation of identity. But don't expect others to buy into your childish nonsense.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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08-06-2015, 12:49 PM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(08-06-2015 12:40 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 11:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Another motto that no one actually believes. And hardly anyone looks upon those who subscribe to it, as lives to envy, or see as worth living. We’re not all in line to one day acquire the life of Sam Harris, or Richard Dawkins, or some other old and stuffy white guy. Perhaps for many atheists these are their models. But the appeal is reserved for a small piece of the pie.

Why do you say nobody believes it? It is the existentialist response to the pessimistic nihilism of Schopenhauer and is rather indistinguishable from the active nihilism of Nietszche. Rest assured that whatever meaning you find or ascribe to your life it doesn't exist outside of your own imagination be it God or Bob. If you cannot find cause to celebrate your impermanence then by all means soothe yourself with some bullshit promise of a postmortem preservation of identity. But don't expect others to buy into your childish nonsense.

you just gave me a brain chubby

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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08-06-2015, 01:23 PM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(08-06-2015 12:40 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Why do you say nobody believes it?

It's just one of those cliche statements that people often repeat, like the sentiments of a hallmark card. A salesman pitching the notion that your life will become worthwhile if you simply acknowledge that it's all you got, is not much different than a man selling snake oil. If your life was worthless before the pitch, it'd likely be just as worthless after you bought it. The life of a typical atheists, is hardly the sort anyone is envying or looking to acquire, as representative of some "worthy" life. If atheism is the position in bed with the truth, it would just mean that the truth is a bad lay.

You can sell me on the validity of atheism, on the false illusions of religion, but one thing you're not gonna sell me on, is that somehow the world gets brighter, the sun begins to peer in, that I can finally live in a world outside of the shadows, by accepting disbelief, that this is all there is. Nor are you gonna sell me on how religion is some cancer, needing a cure. All this bloatware this romantic disbelief, says more about the person peddling it, than anything else. That as much as they despise religion, their evangelical tendencies are ones they desire to preserve, that the world they imagine they live is as much a fantasy as every other, with good guys and bad guys, and villains, and themselves in the roles of heroic armies.

You may see your life as worthwhile, but when a young Jihadi sees it as painfully banal, he's not lying, nor are you, it's just not their cup of tea.
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08-06-2015, 01:38 PM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(08-06-2015 11:47 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Now the implication you just made of "anarchy will rule" is disingenuous, the world wont fall apart without religion, in fact it will be far better.

I never made that implication. The world won’t fall apart without religion, nor would it be any better (that's just your childish fantasy), it’ll probably be a lot less interesting though, and flat, in my opinion. People will likely go on paying their bills, working and feeding their families, go to parks, and movies, and passing time. Others would likely try to scam and cheat like they always have. People will get murdered, children will die, and shit will hit the fan, but the chances of you being the victim will be relatively low.

Quote:Go read Society without God by sociologist Phil Zuckerman, it will be quite enlightening. He went to study this godless society thinking it would show how negative the lack of religion has on people lives and culture and discovered just the opposite. Go figure

I know I can’t wait till we acquire the worth while life of the Japanese, or the Danes.
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08-06-2015, 01:40 PM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(08-06-2015 11:52 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 11:30 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  It’s not a placebo effects, anymore so than a man who’s life gets turned around by the death of his beloved mother, is a victim of a placebo effect. We can dismiss all the supernatural stuff as hogwash, and speak entirely in terms of naturalism, and we still wouldn’t be speaking of a placebo effect.

You have no clue what it is that really works. And "placebo effects" are very real. They are experienced as REAL.

Did I ever say they weren't experienced as real? Isn't that a part of the basic definition here?
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08-06-2015, 01:49 PM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(08-06-2015 01:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 12:40 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Why do you say nobody believes it?

It's just one of those cliche statements that people often repeat, like the sentiments of a hallmark card. A salesman pitching the notion that your life will become worthwhile if you simply acknowledge that it's all you got, is not much different than a man selling snake oil. If your life was worthless before the pitch, it'd likely be just as worthless after you bought it. The life of a typical atheists, is hardly the sort anyone is envying or looking to acquire, as representative of some "worthy" life. If atheism is the position in bed with the truth, it would just mean that the truth is a bad lay.

You can sell me on the validity of atheism, on the false illusions of religion, but one thing you're not gonna sell me on, is that somehow the world gets brighter, the sun begins to peer in, that I can finally live in a world outside of the shadows, by accepting disbelief, that this is all there is. Nor are you gonna sell me on how religion is some cancer, needing a cure. All this bloatware this romantic disbelief, says more about the person peddling it, than anything else. That as much as they despise religion, their evangelical tendencies are ones they desire to preserve, that the world they imagine they live is as much a fantasy as every other, with good guys and bad guys, and villains, and themselves in the roles of heroic armies.

You may see your life as worthwhile, but when a young Jihadi sees it as painfully banal, he's not lying, nor are you, it's just not their cup of tea.

Atheists believe it is better to live life with uncomfortable truths than comforting lies.

No one is trying to sell you the atheist lifestyle, that is what you assume since you are a steeple among the wolves who has come to try and convert the heathens.

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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08-06-2015, 01:51 PM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
Quote:jesus can change you but that depends if you really want the change. you have to be driven and hate what made you spiritually ugly. but jesus does help im a perfect example of this.


Sounds like you did all the heavy lifting and 'jesus' didn't do shit.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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08-06-2015, 02:00 PM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(08-06-2015 09:09 AM)prycejosh Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 06:41 AM)Learner Wrote:  For many Christians, one of the main reasons they believe in Jesus is that he (they claim) freed them from a life of "sin" and gave them power to finally have some measure of victory over the sins they were dealing with. But at the same time, most Christians would affirm that while they're washed and cleansed by Jesus blood and not guilty any more in God's sight, they do admit they still sin every day in many ways.

How would you best explain and show to the average person that NO, "Jesus" doesn't change anyone? How would you explain the apparent positive effects "Jesus"/religion has on people who describe some miraculous conversion and victory from bad habits in their past?

I think I'd start out by pointing to the evidence of countless pastors and priests who've molested children or sexually assaulted other people - did Jesus change them? I've also known some people who became a Christian with a miraculous conversion story...years later go right back into what they were doing in their "life of sin" beforehand. I think I'd attribute any positive effect of religion to being a person in a time of crisis seeking to find some help and learning about religion and then thinking God is going to help them out of their sin...the positive effects of being in a moral, positive atmosphere instead of a negative atmosphere...the human ability to conquer bad habits (for those who don't slip back into old habits), etc. I think for people who say they continue to not "live in sin" anymore, it's just testimony to the human spirit to conquer certain bad habits or whatever when a person really puts herself/himself to something.

jesus can change you but that depends if you really want the change. you have to be driven and hate what made you spiritually ugly. but jesus does help im a perfect example of this.

How do you know it was Jesus? Could it not also be equally as likely that it was the Devil deceiving you and driving you further away from your god?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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08-06-2015, 02:02 PM (This post was last modified: 08-06-2015 02:23 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(08-06-2015 01:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's just one of those cliche statements that people often repeat, like the sentiments of a hallmark card. A salesman pitching the notion that your life will become worthwhile if you simply acknowledge that it's all you got, is not much different than a man selling snake oil. If your life was worthless before the pitch, it'd likely be just as worthless after you bought it. The life of a typical atheists, is hardly the sort anyone is envying or looking to acquire, as representative of some "worthy" life. If atheism is the position in bed with the truth, it would just mean that the truth is a bad lay.

It's just one of those cliche statements that people often repeat, like the sentiments of a hallmark card. A salesman pitching the notion that your life will become worthwhile if you simply acknowledge that it's not all you got, is not much different than a man selling snake oil. If your life was worthless before the pitch, it'd likely be just as worthless after you bought it. The life of a typical theist, is hardly the sort anyone is envying or looking to acquire, as representative of some "worthy" life. If theism is the position in bed with the truth, it would just mean that the truth is a bad lay.

(08-06-2015 01:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You can sell me on the validity of atheism, on the false illusions of religion, but one thing you're not gonna sell me on, is that somehow the world gets brighter, the sun begins to peer in, that I can finally live in a world outside of the shadows, by accepting disbelief, that this is all there is.

But I am not trying to sell you on anything. You either realize and celebrate your impermanence or you don't. No skin off my scrotum either way.

(08-06-2015 01:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Nor are you gonna sell me on how religion is some cancer, needing a cure. All this bloatware this romantic disbelief, says more about the person peddling it, than anything else.

I'm not trying to peddle anything other than you are responsible for making your own metaphysics. If you choose to abrogate that responsibility so be it. None of my business.

(08-06-2015 01:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You may see your life as worthwhile, but when a young Jihadi sees it as painfully banal, he's not lying, nor are you, it's just not their cup of tea.

Yup. But only one of us is deluded enough to strap some C4 on their chest to make their point. It's a self-correcting problem.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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08-06-2015, 02:04 PM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(08-06-2015 02:02 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 01:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  It's just one of those cliche statements that people often repeat, like the sentiments of a hallmark card. A salesman pitching the notion that your life will become worthwhile if you simply acknowledge that it's all you got, is not much different than a man selling snake oil. If your life was worthless before the pitch, it'd likely be just as worthless after you bought it. The life of a typical atheists, is hardly the sort anyone is envying or looking to acquire, as representative of some "worthy" life. If atheism is the position in bed with the truth, it would just mean that the truth is a bad lay.

It's just one of those cliche statements that people often repeat, like the sentiments of a hallmark card. A salesman pitching the notion that your life will become worthwhile if you simply acknowledge that it's not all you got, is not much different than a man selling snake oil. If your life was worthless before the pitch, it'd likely be just as worthless after you bought it. The life of a typical theist, is hardly the sort anyone is envying or looking to acquire, as representative of some "worthy" life. If theism is the position in bed with the truth, it would just mean that the truth is a bad lay.

(08-06-2015 01:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You can sell me on the validity of atheism, on the false illusions of religion, but one thing you're not gonna sell me on, is that somehow the world gets brighter, the sun begins to peer in, that I can finally live in a world outside of the shadows, by accepting disbelief, that this is all there is.

But I am not trying to sell you on anything. You either realize it or you don't. No skin off my scrotum either way.

(08-06-2015 01:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  Nor are you gonna sell me on how religion is some cancer, needing a cure. All this bloatware this romantic disbelief, says more about the person peddling it, than anything else.

I'm not trying to peddle anything other than you are responsible for making your own metaphysics. If you choose to abrogate that responsibility so be it. None of my business.

(08-06-2015 01:23 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  You may see your life as worthwhile, but when a young Jihadi sees it as painfully banal, he's not lying, nor are you, it's just not their cup of tea.

Yup. But only one of us is willing strap some C4 on their chest to make their point.

Or bomb abortion clinics Drinking Beverage

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
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