Jesus doesn't change people
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
09-06-2015, 06:46 AM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(08-06-2015 08:18 PM)Anjele Wrote:  You are the one living a false life. You are living a life based on a fairy tale ending.

If this were true, I have no idea what it would take recognize this. I think I'm living or at least trying to live an authentic life, a part of an existence with some seem deeper significance, a great story to be told, that we all find ourselves a part of. Others will claim that this is not true, that this is a false sense of life, that there is no deeper significance to it. I don't find their case all that convincing, just like you don't find religious beliefs convincing.

But if I am wrong, why does it even matter? Is it out of empathy for me, a concern that I'm missing out on something by believing? I doubt that.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-06-2015, 06:49 AM
Jesus doesn't change people
(09-06-2015 06:33 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 05:37 PM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  Be honest for just once on the forum. Why did you (a theist who doesn't accept anything atheists tell you about their own opinions on any and every subject you are involved in) come to this forum of atheists?

I want you to actually, honestly, think about your motivations. The search for your honest reasons just might help you better understand your own motives. And hence, why people don't take you or your attempts at argument and rebuttal seriously.

I think the problem with your question is that it presupposes that I was motivated by rational considerations, that my participation was deliberate. And I don't believe this is the case at all. I've been a part of some forum or group like this for the past ten years or so. I like the topic, belief vs disbelief, religion. There's probably very few things that I enjoy talking about, arguing over, or discussing more so than religion. In fact much of what I read is often about these topics. I'm currently working my way through Breaking the Spell, and Faith vs. Fact. I imagine it's probably like folks who like sports, or bikes, or Miatas, joining a forum.

I also like the idea of questioning people beliefs, and views, to see how mind's outside of my own are like. But I'm more interested in the person behind the veil and arguments, though over the internet that's quite a difficult thing to gleam. And more often than not, I'd typically deconstruct a person's argument, to make them a part of an internal dialogue that I'm always having. I'm often accused of not listening, or understanding, but I don't think this is the case. And I think people accuses me not understanding, because I disagree with them, or misconstrued my questions. But I think I keep a good summary of the points raised, a recollection of every counter points, and argument.

I think if you were to ask me to summarize the view of my opponents, the ones that have at this point been expressed to me quite extensively, that I'd do a good job. If you were to quiz me on your views, I'd probably do a good job as well. I remember in another forum, where theists and atheists switched rolls, arguing each others position, I was commended on my ability to do atheism justice, rather than dish out a series of strawmen.

I'm always listening. Reading over certain things from time to time, paying attention to every minute detail, even the day to day struggles, and frustration, the stories of losses, and troubling experiences. I try and take it all in as much as I can, forming a picture of the lives behind these screens, that's constantly changing and evolving. And I live for those moments in which people surprise you, and shatter whatever image you had of them previously.

And I think in seeing others, one is able to better see himself too.

I also like the question you raise about what motivates us: The disparity between the answers we give, and the true and honest reasons. What drives a man's contempt for those who believe in fairy tales, and deceptions? What draws one to science, as a replacement for failed religions? Why is the truth so appealing? Why do humans seek meaning? Why do they see distinctions between good and bad? Why is a life that's all but sound and fury, signifying nothing, constantly being given significance? etc....

I'm here our of my own curiosities, because I enjoy the discussion, and I like the people, at least most of them, though I don't think they feel the same about me, lol.

That's because you still don't seem to be honest about why you're here. You could go anywhere and find discussion on belief and non-belief, but you came to an atheist forum.

Let me put it this way, the answer you gave is the same sort of nonsense I'd give if I went to a theist forum and didn't want to be honest with them about why I was really there, I know because I've done the very same thing and did eventually realize I was lying.

Do you think you're successfully arguing your opinion and that if you were able to do so, do you think you'd be causing us atheists to find or re-find God?

(And as a side note, discussion means more than response. You respond, but don't actually consider the validity of any answer given to you and then immediately start trying to persuade people into your opinion. Odds are, no one cares about your opinion on an atheist forum because it is most likely that none of us came here to encounter people like you. Instead, we came here to escape people like you who think they know better than we do about what we think and believe and feel. We get tired of having our opinions mischaracterized.)

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes TheBeardedDude's post
09-06-2015, 07:06 AM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(09-06-2015 06:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 08:18 PM)Anjele Wrote:  You are the one living a false life. You are living a life based on a fairy tale ending.

If this were true, I have no idea what it would take recognize this. I think I'm living or at least trying to live an authentic life, a part of an existence with some seem deeper significance, a great story to be told, that we all find ourselves a part of. Others will claim that this is not true, that this is a false sense of life, that there is no deeper significance to it. I don't find their case all that convincing, just like you don't find religious beliefs convincing.

But if I am wrong, why does it even matter? Is it out of empathy for me, a concern that I'm missing out on something by believing? I doubt that.

It matters because you've come to our house to spread your woo.

You said you find this debate of belief vs non-belief fascinating and that's largely why your here. To participate in such conversations. Well, me too. I find it to be one of the most inspiring conversations I take part in anymore. But the reason its so fascinating to me is because I can't fathom why anyone with a functioning brain, who honestly examines the evidence and material, could land on the side of belief.

So what compells you to come here specifically, to take part in these conversations and debates?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Fodder_From_The_Truth's post
09-06-2015, 07:17 AM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(09-06-2015 06:49 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  That's because you still don't seem to be honest about why you're here. You could go anywhere and find discussion on belief and non-belief, but you came to an atheist forum.

Let me put it this way, the answer you gave is the same sort of nonsense I'd give if I went to a theist forum and didn't want to be honest with them about why I was really there, I know because I've done the very same thing and did eventually realize I was lying.

I think I am being honest. But you said you would’ve given a similar answer if you were on a theist forum, but it’d be lie. What would the truth be here then? What would your honest reason be? Is that basically what you might believe is mine as well?

Quote:Do you think you're successfully arguing your opinion and that if you were able to do so, do you think you'd be causing us atheists to find or re-find God?

No, I think that every argument I’ve ever made here has fallen flat on it’s face, even the most inane arguments, like semantic distinctions. I can hardly think of a single arguments in which I was successful in changing someone’s mind, but then again I can’t think of a single argument that took place between anybody on the internet, that’s led to that either.

But If I were successful would I lead atheists to find God? No, I wouldn’t. I don’t particularly provide arguments for anyone to believe in God. I think a person could read and understand every argument for God, and yet find none of them particularly convincing, and I’m likely to agree with them.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-06-2015, 07:22 AM
Jesus doesn't change people
(09-06-2015 07:17 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 06:49 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  That's because you still don't seem to be honest about why you're here. You could go anywhere and find discussion on belief and non-belief, but you came to an atheist forum.

Let me put it this way, the answer you gave is the same sort of nonsense I'd give if I went to a theist forum and didn't want to be honest with them about why I was really there, I know because I've done the very same thing and did eventually realize I was lying.

I think I am being honest. But you said you would’ve given a similar answer if you were on a theist forum, but it’d be lie. What would the truth be here then? What would your honest reason be? Is that basically what you might believe is mine as well?

Quote:Do you think you're successfully arguing your opinion and that if you were able to do so, do you think you'd be causing us atheists to find or re-find God?

No, I think that every argument I’ve ever made here has fallen flat on it’s face, even the most inane arguments, like semantic distinctions. I can hardly think of a single arguments in which I was successful in changing someone’s mind, but then again I can’t think of a single argument that took place between anybody on the internet, that’s led to that either.

But If I were successful would I lead atheists to find God? No, I wouldn’t. I don’t particularly provide arguments for anyone to believe in God. I think a person could read and understand every argument for God, and yet find none of them particularly convincing, and I’m likely to agree with them.

A theist on an atheist forum arguing against atheists about what they believe and how they view religion, and you still claim your goal isn't to convert people to religion (or better to say convert people to a belief in a god)?

You need to seriously think about why you're really here. Because it isn't for conversation to better understand atheists (you might be able to regurgitate what we say in a synopsis but that's no more about understanding is than memorizing definitions is akin to learning about what they are defining). And the reason I say this is that not only do you not seriously consider any points or counterpoints raised to you, you've never admitted to being wrong despite being shown on multiple occasions and topics that you are. If you can't be honest with us (or yourself) about you motivations, how can you expect to have honest conversations?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-06-2015, 07:51 AM (This post was last modified: 09-06-2015 07:58 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(09-06-2015 07:06 AM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  But the reason its so fascinating to me is because I can't fathom why anyone with a functioning brain, who honestly examines the evidence and material, could land on the side of belief.

Do you really mean this? That after all these years you can't fathom this? I'm assuming you've acquired a variety of explanations, such it's a product of some cognitive biases, indoctrination, delusions, because people value feeling warm and fuzzy, a lack of education, a fear of the unknown etc.... When you say you can't fathom the reasons here, is this to say you are not particularly confident in any of these commonly thrown around explanations?

Quote:So what compells you to come here specifically, to take part in these conversations and debates?

I could say it probably also has to do with the same thing. Why does someone like myself believe, while someone like yourself not believe? The best explanation I can muster, that doesn't depend on deriding someone's mental capacities, is our overall life experiences, and conditions outside of our control, that we have to observe and reflect on nonetheless. And I think the real reasons lie in our relationship to a variety of others things that are not particularly about religion, perhaps related to the distinction between why some people are drawn to turning inward, and reflective in regards to their own self, and their relationship with others, while other are drawn to observations of the external world, that lives independently of one's own self, that one's own self need not be considered. That's my working hypothesis.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-06-2015, 08:09 AM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
Like I said; anyone who has thoroughly examined the evidence or lack thereof.

I'm surrounded by indoctrinated Christians who don't question their belief. I don't expect them to not believe. They are another sheep in the flock. They don't read their bibles, question the supernatural aspects, or examine the science that inadvertently debunked mythical explanations. They don't surround themselves with people bombarding belief with logic and reason.

They have an excuse. You don't. So in my opinion you're either ignoring the logic and reason that surrounds you here, which would mean you're here to preach at us. Or you're just that coward that I keep talking about, and you know your faith is bullshit but you're afraid to let go.

Don't be scared.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Fodder_From_The_Truth's post
09-06-2015, 08:46 AM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(09-06-2015 07:22 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  A theist on an atheist forum arguing against atheists about what they believe and how they view religion, and you still claim your goal isn't to convert people to religion (or better to say convert people to a belief in a god)?

Any theists who come to an atheists forum with a goal of winning converts, is in for a rude awakening, and will likely leave as quickly as he arrived. While it would be pretty great if I served as some conduit for some atheists on the internet finding God, this would be just as surprising if it did occur for you, as it would be for me. I think I have better odds of winning the lottery, lol.

Quote:You need to seriously think about why you're really here. Because it isn't for conversation to better understand atheists (you might be able to regurgitate what we say in a synopsis but that's no more about understanding is than memorizing definitions is akin to learning about what they are defining). And the reason I say this is that not only do you not seriously consider any points or counterpoints raised to you, you've never admitted to being wrong despite being shown on multiple occasions and topics that you are. If you can't be honest with us (or yourself) about you motivations, how can you expect to have honest conversations?

I think your impression here is false. I’m pretty confident that if you were gauge my understandings of the arguments and claims made by other atheists, that you’d discover that I understood them quite well. And I’d even wager that it’s more likely that you misunderstood my objections, and questions, than I misunderstood you.

You may think this is not the case, but I’m more than willing to defend myself here.

And I’m too sure why you keep suggesting that the reasons I gave for why I am here, are not the honest reasons. I’m not sure why you're adamant in believing that the reasons I provided are false, or dishonest. Just speak your mind, tell me why you think I’m here?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-06-2015, 08:51 AM
Jesus doesn't change people
(09-06-2015 08:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 07:22 AM)TheBeardedDude Wrote:  A theist on an atheist forum arguing against atheists about what they believe and how they view religion, and you still claim your goal isn't to convert people to religion (or better to say convert people to a belief in a god)?

Any theists who come to an atheists forum with a goal of winning converts, is in for a rude awakening, and will likely leave as quickly as he arrived. While it would be pretty great if I served as some conduit for some atheists on the internet finding God, this would be just as surprising if it did occur for you, as it would be for me. I think I have better odds of winning the lottery, lol.

Quote:You need to seriously think about why you're really here. Because it isn't for conversation to better understand atheists (you might be able to regurgitate what we say in a synopsis but that's no more about understanding is than memorizing definitions is akin to learning about what they are defining). And the reason I say this is that not only do you not seriously consider any points or counterpoints raised to you, you've never admitted to being wrong despite being shown on multiple occasions and topics that you are. If you can't be honest with us (or yourself) about you motivations, how can you expect to have honest conversations?

I think your impression here is false. I’m pretty confident that if you were gauge my understandings of the arguments and claims made by other atheists, that you’d discover that I understood them quite well. And I’d even wager that it’s more likely that you misunderstood my objections, and questions, than I misunderstood you.

You may think this is not the case, but I’m more than willing to defend myself here.

And I’m too sure why you keep suggesting that the reasons I gave for why I am here, are not the honest reasons. I’m not sure why you're adamant in believing that the reasons I provided are false, or dishonest. Just speak your mind, tell me why you think I’m here?

To present your opinions as true so as to convince atheists a god exists.

For instance on the ". I’m pretty confident that if you were gauge my understandings of the arguments and claims made by other atheists, that you’d discover that I understood them quite well." , in all the conversations on morality or evolution, you never seemed to understand or accept what you were being told. You continually combatted your straw man versions of what was being said. This is primarily because you don't come to actually understand our opinions, but to object to them. Because you're not here for conversation, not really. I believe you believe you are, but you're far too close-minded.

For instance, you operate under the assumption that atheists want to hear your opinion. Why do you think atheists on an atheist forum would want to hear a theist's opinion?

Being nice is something stupid people do to hedge their bets
-Rick
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-06-2015, 09:42 AM
RE: Jesus doesn't change people
(09-06-2015 08:09 AM)Fodder_From_The_Truth Wrote:  I'm surrounded by indoctrinated Christians who don't question their belief. I don't expect them to not believe. They are another sheep in the flock. They don't read their bibles, question the supernatural aspects, or examine the science that inadvertently debunked mythical explanations. They don't surround themselves with people bombarding belief with logic and reason.

I think it's very true, that theists for the most part are not surrounded or bombarded by their opposition. Though it does exists more so for them now, than it did perhaps 30 years ago. If you want to know what those alternative positions are, what the objections to theism, and religion are, a person would have to actively go out and look for it.

You make fervently believe the oppositions case is so complete, so persuasive, so compelling, and strong, that a person would have to jump through all sorts of hoops, and sloppy thinkings to reject it. But I don't, I find it all wanting, and hardly ever about the thing they are talking about. Watching a theists and atheists argue, is like watching two people arguing about two different things. Or two foreigners trying to argue using their own respective languages, unable to recognize their own misunderstandings.

Quote:They have an excuse. You don't. So in my opinion you're either ignoring the logic and reason that surrounds you here, which would mean you're here to preach at us. Or you're just that coward that I keep talking about, and you know your faith is bullshit but you're afraid to let go.

Don't be scared.

That's your opinion, but I don't think it's a very good one. I'm not sure why it breaks down to these one or two simplistic options. What about options in which you're wrong and I'm right? Well that couldn't possibly be true right? You seem to a lack a great deal of imagination, if it all just breaks down to either I'm coward, or here to preach. If I was afraid of the dark, afraid of letting go, I'm not sure why I'd be surrounding myself with the dark? Wouldn't that perhaps negate an explanation of cowardliness at least?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: