Jesus historicity
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15-11-2014, 08:02 PM
RE: Jesus historicity
(15-11-2014 07:18 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(15-11-2014 07:04 PM)Free Wrote:  I am not seeing rational arguments here from anyone. Instead, I am seeing denial at my rational arguments and evidence provided.

I have demonstrated the "hatred" thing numerous times with actual evidence from both Tacitus and Pliny, so what more is expected?

I have demonstrated it with "rational" reasoning- "would you go to war with someone you love?"

Pliny`s letter to Trajan shows how the Roman authorities would actively hunt down Christians and bring them in for persecution. It shows that they were being persecuted because of their religious beliefs. Unless they denounced Christ, and took the oath and rituals of the Roman empire and their gods, they would be killed.

It was all about religion. It`s the same thing today with the Muslims. If you are a Christian in Saudi Arabia, you are not permitted into their `holy`city. Only Muslims are permitted in their little `kingdom`and if you are not a Muslim, accessed denied.

The Romans were an arrogant lot. Their religion and way of life was far superior than anyone else, as far as they were concerned. If you were not a Roman, you were garbage.


From a strictly mythical Jesus perspective, true. But those arguments miserably fail when confronted from a historical perspective.

A Hate/Love dichotomy isn't a rational juxtaposition since the world isn't a good/bad one or none scenario. Would you go to war with someone you love? NO, then you HATE them is an irrational form of argument.

Even if this argument you've made was valid... so what? You brought it up to say that it makes sense Tacitus would want to hate the Jews/Christians messiah? How do you even rationalize this without making logical leaps? He wrote 1 line about Christ, to extrapolate extra context about why based on his opinions of Christians is flimsy. There isn't a solid logical progression.

And back on the Jesus case. There isn't some it must be a No Jesus vs Historical Jesus case being made most of the time. You have to debate these concepts on a spectrum. Unfold these topics at an open angle and view them as fluid, not static and black/white.

Here is another view of the Jews from Tacitus:

Quote:This augmented the wealth of the Jews, as also did the fact, that among themselves they are inflexibly honest and ever ready to show compassion, but they regard the rest of mankind with all the hatred of enemies.

From time to time I will just keep dropping this evidence on you.

Big Grin

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15-11-2014, 08:08 PM (This post was last modified: 15-11-2014 08:13 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: Jesus historicity
(15-11-2014 08:02 PM)Free Wrote:  
(15-11-2014 07:18 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  A Hate/Love dichotomy isn't a rational juxtaposition since the world isn't a good/bad one or none scenario. Would you go to war with someone you love? NO, then you HATE them is an irrational form of argument.

Even if this argument you've made was valid... so what? You brought it up to say that it makes sense Tacitus would want to hate the Jews/Christians messiah? How do you even rationalize this without making logical leaps? He wrote 1 line about Christ, to extrapolate extra context about why based on his opinions of Christians is flimsy. There isn't a solid logical progression.

And back on the Jesus case. There isn't some it must be a No Jesus vs Historical Jesus case being made most of the time. You have to debate these concepts on a spectrum. Unfold these topics at an open angle and view them as fluid, not static and black/white.

Here is another view of the Jews from Tacitus:

Quote:This augmented the wealth of the Jews, as also did the fact, that among themselves they are inflexibly honest and ever ready to show compassion, but they regard the rest of mankind with all the hatred of enemies.

From time to time I will just keep dropping this evidence on you.

Big Grin

Are you just going to willfully be irrational? SO what? Have you forgotten this evidence you have doesn't bring any rational leads to anywhere? He wrote one line, that's the relevant case. If you had a direct quote of him saying, he hates the jews... what would that proof in your case about 1 line he wrote about Christ?

What Willhop is saying is true... but there's not much contrast to that position going on. It's some mythical mythical strong case that you see as some opposition you must attack... But this isn't some one or not scenario, why do you guys see this staunch all or nothing case?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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15-11-2014, 08:30 PM (This post was last modified: 15-11-2014 08:35 PM by Free.)
RE: Jesus historicity
(15-11-2014 08:08 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(15-11-2014 08:02 PM)Free Wrote:  Here is another view of the Jews from Tacitus:


From time to time I will just keep dropping this evidence on you.

Big Grin

Are you just going to willfully be irrational? SO what? Have you forgotten this evidence you have doesn't bring any rational leads to anywhere? He wrote one line, that's the relevant case. If you had a direct quote of him saying, he hates the jews... what would that proof in your case about 1 line he wrote about Christ?

What Willhop is saying is true... but there's not any contrast to that position going on. It's some mythical mythical strong case that you see as some opposition you must attack... But this isn't some one or not scenario, why do you guys see this staunch all or nothing case?

It's not us, it's you.

Do you understand why the Romans went to war with the Jews?

The Romans were conquerors.
Judea was a conquest.
The Jews were the enemy.
The Jewish religion was despised.
The Romans would subjugate the Jews to their way of life and religion.
The Jews would have none of it.

The success of the Romans was because they would annihilate the cultures of those that they conquered. If you didn't submit, you were a hated enemy of the empire.

The Jews would not submit. Hence ... hatred.

In some cases it really is 0 or 1. Black & White.

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15-11-2014, 08:54 PM
RE: Jesus historicity
lol Free

(15-11-2014 08:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  ..you should probably think twice about throwing in your two sense,

lol Tomasia

As for myself, I don't see much of a point to this argument.

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15-11-2014, 09:29 PM
RE: Jesus historicity
(15-11-2014 08:54 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  lol Free

(15-11-2014 08:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  ..you should probably think twice about throwing in your two sense,

lol Tomasia

As for myself, I don't see much of a point to this argument.

I was just bored, sorry.

SORRY OKAY?

I think I need some little blue pills ...

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15-11-2014, 10:25 PM
RE: Jesus historicity
(15-11-2014 09:29 PM)Free Wrote:  
(15-11-2014 08:54 PM)houseofcantor Wrote:  lol Free


lol Tomasia

As for myself, I don't see much of a point to this argument.

I was just bored, sorry.

SORRY OKAY?

I think I need some little blue pills ...





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15-11-2014, 10:31 PM
RE: Jesus historicity
I was bored so I looked at some Gwynnies... now I'm exhausted. Big Grin

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16-11-2014, 05:38 AM
RE: Jesus historicity
I think goodwithoutgod summed it up quite nicely.

Even if Jesus was just a mortal man, his life wouldn't have spawned a legend if he didn't do anything note worthy. If he was just some dude preaching his ideas its asinine to think he or any of his followers didn't write down a single word spoken while he was alive.
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16-11-2014, 06:21 AM
RE: Jesus historicity
We know for a fact there were a number of Apocalyptic preachers running around ancient Palestine. We have no writings from any of them, or any or their followers.

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16-11-2014, 07:38 AM
RE: Jesus historicity
I bet they were all full of shit too.

I'm no expert, I just personally think Jesus was a myth comprised of other myths.
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