Jesus historicity
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14-11-2014, 10:33 PM
RE: Jesus historicity
"Just curious as to why you would think some other culture would even know about Jesus, let alone write about him during, or immediately after, his time?"

To elaborate, its a nonsensical question. Are you speaking of a man or of the demi-god with all of his 'father/himself' attributes? If it was a man only, I would not expect any other cultures from his immediate past or area to know about him. However, if he was influential enough he could have been known by other peoples outside of his immediate area. However, this is not the case, as there is not a shred of contemporary evidence for a historical Jesus. So why presuppose on biblical Jesus to begin with?

Arguing with a Christian is a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. You can be the greatest player in the world, yet the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut away triumphantly.
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14-11-2014, 11:04 PM (This post was last modified: 14-11-2014 11:41 PM by StorMRising.)
RE: Jesus historicity
(14-11-2014 09:37 PM)Free Wrote:  
Quote:there is not so much as a solitary reference to Jesus in any non-Christian, non-Jewish source of any kind.

Just curious as to why you would think some other culture would even know about Jesus, let alone write about him during, or immediately after, his time?

Jesus didnt have to be mentioned, however to think the extraordinary claims around him wouldnt be is ridiculous.

You dont think contemporary historians wouldn't have mentioned the zombie invasion of Jerusalem, or the 2 earthquakes, or any other miraclous event? Give your head a shake.
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15-11-2014, 06:51 AM (This post was last modified: 15-11-2014 07:00 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Jesus historicity
(14-11-2014 07:15 PM)StorMFront Wrote:  “What sorts of things do pagan authors from the time of Jesus have to say about him? Nothing. As odd as it may seem, there is no mention of Jesus at all by any of his pagan contemporaries.

You know who else lived during the time of Jesus, for whom we don't have a single Pagan writer mentioning? Pilate. We don't a have a single pagan writer mentioning anything about his numerous political campaigns etc during his life time. Tacitus does mention him only about 50 years later, and only in passage writing of how he crucified Jesus.

The only people we have who wrote of Pilate, are the gospel writers, and two Jews, Philo and Josephus, and an inscription with his name and title. Why do we not have an abundance of people writing about such an important political figure?

Quote:. They all argue for different versions of the man- from cynical rabbi, revolutionary zealot, apocalyptic prophet, progressive Pharisee, a Galilean shaman, a magus, or a Hellenistic sage- even some a demigod or myth. Why is this? Because we have absolutely no evidence for this man's existence.

No, there's ample evidence of his existence, it's just that it becomes hard to decipher the man from the legend. Most of the versions you mentioned above aren't entirely conflicting pictures, and in fact they likely agree on a lot more than they disagree. The versions just attempt to emphasize particular aspects more so than other aspects.

Even if we take modern figures, like Che, or Obama, the pictures painted of them dramatically change when it's painted by one party than another. The portrait of Obama painted by the Tea Party, seems to be of dramatic contrast to that of one's painted by his staunch supporters.

These portraits differ because they are attempting to address a certain mystery, the inner self of a person, who they really are beyond the snippets we see on TV, or read in their autobiographies, and they often get filtered through the lens of our own biases.
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15-11-2014, 08:06 AM (This post was last modified: 15-11-2014 08:53 AM by StorMFront.)
RE: Jesus historicity
You're confused here, Pontius Pilate was not a 'demi-god' now was he? Did he preform miraculous events and miracles? You are comparing apples to a rock here. If you're simply arguing for a historical Jesus, than were done here. As I could careless if a man lived who inspired a legend existed. He would be no more relevant than any other legendary figure if that is the case. However there is no evidence to even support this, just plausibility.

You stated there is 'ample amounts of evidence for him', yet you completely fail to provide one such example. Just to keep this short, no, no there isn't.

Arguing with a Christian is a lot like playing chess with a pigeon. You can be the greatest player in the world, yet the pigeon will knock over all the pieces, shit on the board and strut away triumphantly.
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15-11-2014, 08:20 AM (This post was last modified: 15-11-2014 08:26 AM by Tomasia.)
RE: Jesus historicity
(15-11-2014 08:06 AM)StorMFront Wrote:  Your confused here, Pontius Pilate was not a 'demi-god' now was he? Did he preform miraculous events and miracles? You are comparing apples to a rock here.

No, he was a important Roman political figure in 1st century Jerusalem, which no pagan sources mention whatsoever. If Jesus was as most historians believe, to not be a demi-god, but some jew who believed he was the messiah, and got strung up by the Romans, would we expect to have more mentions of him than Pilate?

You didn't limit your objection to the supernatural Jesus of the Christian Faith, but extended it to also to those who believed he was a historical, non-divine figure.

Quote:You stated there is 'ample amounts of evidence for him', yet you completely fail to provide one such example. Just to keep this short, no, no there isn't.

We have a first hand account of someone who met his followers, and even his own brother. You have Josephus mentioning in a non-disputed part of his writings, the death of Jesus's brother James. You have Tacitus writing of Jesus being crucified at the hands of Pilate. These are just few pieces of evidence, and it requires the sort of mental gymnastics conducted by conspiracy theorist to make it fit non-historicity.
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15-11-2014, 08:35 AM
RE: Jesus historicity
(15-11-2014 08:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  We have a first hand account of someone who met his followers, and even his own brother. You have Josephus mentioning in a non-disputed part of his writings, the death of Jesus's brother James. You have Tacitus writing of Jesus being crucified at the hands of Pilate. These are just few pieces of evidence, and it requires the sort of mental gymnastics conducted by conspiracy theorist to make it fit non-historicity.

Who's the someone? I guess you're referring to the Gospels somehow? How d'you know they're authentic?

I'm pretty sure GWOG or one of the others will debunk this in short order... I'm not big into the history stuff...

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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15-11-2014, 08:46 AM
RE: Jesus historicity
(15-11-2014 08:35 AM)morondog Wrote:  Who's the someone? I guess you're referring to the Gospels somehow? How d'you know they're authentic?

No, I was talking about Paul.

Quote:I'm pretty sure GWOG or one of the others will debunk this in short order... I'm not big into the history stuff...

I've already gone a couple rounds here with other ahistoricist who all bowed out early after taking a beating on how ridiculous their claims were.

And if you admittingly don't know much of anything about the history stuff, you should probably think twice about throwing in your two sense, because it likely will be revealed to be worthless and ignorant. But I'll sit here patiently awaiting someone to come to your rescue.
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15-11-2014, 09:07 AM (This post was last modified: 15-11-2014 09:20 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus historicity
(15-11-2014 08:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-11-2014 08:35 AM)morondog Wrote:  Who's the someone? I guess you're referring to the Gospels somehow? How d'you know they're authentic?

No, I was talking about Paul.

Quote:I'm pretty sure GWOG or one of the others will debunk this in short order... I'm not big into the history stuff...

I've already gone a couple rounds here with other ahistoricist who all bowed out early after taking a beating on how ridiculous their claims were.

And if you admittingly don't know much of anything about the history stuff, you should probably think twice about throwing in your two sense, because it likely will be revealed to be worthless and ignorant. But I'll sit here patiently awaiting someone to come to your rescue.

No one "bowed out" of anything. You totally FAILED to support your claims, and in fact you were shown to be lying.

Still waiting for other examples and scholarly support for your CLAIM that the gospels were "biographies". You are delusional. Thanks for again demonstrating that.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/...spels.html

There are mentions of Pilate by NON-BELIEVERS, (unlike your Jebus).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontius_Pilate

Do try and take a class, some day.
There are good reasons to think that Paul was some sort of invented "meme". There are at least two people in Acts whose philosophies were FAR different, so either it radically changed AFTER the conversion event, (ie they portray TWO DIFFERENT post-Damascus Road philosophies), OR they were two different people.
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/paul.htm
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...Saint-Paul

There were a number of preacher dudes named Jesus. (http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/surfeit.htm)
IF he indeed existed, how would you know the difference ?

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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15-11-2014, 09:08 AM (This post was last modified: 15-11-2014 09:23 AM by StorMRising.)
RE: Jesus historicity
(15-11-2014 08:20 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-11-2014 08:06 AM)StorMFront Wrote:  Your confused here, Pontius Pilate was not a 'demi-god' now was he? Did he preform miraculous events and miracles? You are comparing apples to a rock here.

No, he was a important Roman political figure in 1st century Jerusalem, which no pagan sources mention whatsoever. If Jesus was as most historians believe, to not be a demi-god, but some jew who believed he was the messiah, and got strung up by the Romans, would we expect to have more mentions of him than Pilate?

You didn't limit your objection to the supernatural Jesus of the Christian Faith, but extended it to also to those who believed he was a historical, non-divine figure.

Quote:You stated there is 'ample amounts of evidence for him', yet you completely fail to provide one such example. Just to keep this short, no, no there isn't.

We have a first hand account of someone who met his followers, and even his own brother. You have Josephus mentioning in a non-disputed part of his writings, the death of Jesus's brother James. You have Tacitus writing of Jesus being crucified at the hands of Pilate. These are just few pieces of evidence, and it requires the sort of mental gymnastics conducted by conspiracy theorist to make it fit non-historicity.

Ummm, Pilate has contemporary evidence, that stone is evidence of his existence. Which is dated to the time period of 26-37 CE.

"would we expect to have more mentions of him than Pilate"

Historical Jesus shouldnt have any mentions at all, thats why we dont have any contemporary evidences for him. That is why we only hear about Biblical Jesus some 90 years later, after his supposed death, from non-contemporary sources. The fact is there was a period in between the non-contemporary citations and supposed death where there were lunatic Christians going around saying stuff about Jesus. Which Tacitus and other non-contemporary historians probably just wrote down what they heard from the Christians of the time period. Which Tacitus and Josephus are not very reliable when it comes to Jesus. It will always be questioned on how reliable are they. Early Christians are known to interpolate Historians works after their death. Which again how are they evidence for a historical man? We have absolutely no idea where they got their information from. Which it could have just been the ramblings of the Christians at the time that they cited.

" mental gymnastics conducted by conspiracy theorist to make it fit non-historicity"

When the predominated religion for the past 1700 years has been Christianity in Western society. You dont think there hasnt been any confirmation bias or falsehoods produced to make it look like their saviour god was a historical person? This isnt conspiracy theorist nonsense. I know Christians today, they have a motto they love to adhere to "Lying for Christ".

Which we have other examples of religions taking off without any historical figures needed. Humans love a good tale and try to exaggerate tales, then they worship those tales.

History is written by the victors and all that. I personally believe that a man existed that inspired the legend. Just dont tell me there is evidence for the man.
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15-11-2014, 09:10 AM
RE: Jesus historicity
(15-11-2014 08:46 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(15-11-2014 08:35 AM)morondog Wrote:  Who's the someone? I guess you're referring to the Gospels somehow? How d'you know they're authentic?

No, I was talking about Paul.

How do you know *he's* authentic?

Quote:
Quote:I'm pretty sure GWOG or one of the others will debunk this in short order... I'm not big into the history stuff...

I've already gone a couple rounds here with other ahistoricist who all bowed out early after taking a beating on how ridiculous their claims were.

And if you admittingly don't know much of anything about the history stuff, you should probably think twice about throwing in your two sense, because it likely will be revealed to be worthless and ignorant. But I'll sit here patiently awaiting someone to come to your rescue.
Rolleyes Christ. You *are* a delightful kid. OK so Jesus existed. So what?

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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