Jesus in the desert
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22-10-2014, 04:51 PM
RE: Jesus in the desert
(22-10-2014 04:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  You almost certainly have different criteria when evaluating the credibility of different sources.

No, I think I use the same criteria in evaluating the credibility of any source. Of course if we have reasons to think someone is trying to deceive us, or cheat us, then it's likely we'll understand what they are saying differently, than how we might understand someone who engaged in a honest dealing with us.
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22-10-2014, 04:53 PM
RE: Jesus in the desert
(22-10-2014 04:36 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-10-2014 12:08 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Tomasia,

You clearly have not read the Bible in its entirety.

See 2 Tim 3: 16: All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness........


These few verses you quoted mean what exactly? How are you suggesting they be understood? These mean certain verses can't be understand as hyperbolic of metaphorical? That all verses should be taken as literal?

So when we get scriptures that refer to Jesus as a Lamb, we should understand this to mean he was literally a lamb?

And what is that you believe "God-breathed" means, the term is understood to mean god-inspired, and is translated this way in several other versions of the bible. But clearly you think it means some particular thing, and I would like to hear what this is.

Tomasia,

To quote you,

"I don’t think the writers of these text were attempting to have us believe that they were filled with some spirit that allowed them to envision life thousands of years prior to their own life, and this spirit showed them how it all came to be. But rather it’s the writer attempting to convey an underlying meaning for the order and chaos around him,..."

So which is it, God-breathed or human inspiration? You can't have it both ways. Either you believe that the entire Bible came from the mind of God including some unsavory portions like Numbers 31 or the entire book of Joshua, or you don't. If you don't, how do you make the distinction? Slaughtering the entire population of Midian except 32000 virgins- fact or hyperbole?

Doc
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22-10-2014, 04:56 PM
RE: Jesus in the desert
(22-10-2014 04:51 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-10-2014 04:21 PM)Chas Wrote:  You almost certainly have different criteria when evaluating the credibility of different sources.

No, I think I use the same criteria in evaluating the credibility of any source. Of course if we have reasons to think someone is trying to deceive us, or cheat us, then it's likely we'll understand what they are saying differently, than how we might understand someone who engaged in a honest dealing with us.

So you will judge a story told to you by a friend identically as one told in the Bible?

When your friend describes a miraculous occurrence, then ...?

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-10-2014, 05:09 PM
RE: Jesus in the desert
(22-10-2014 04:53 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Tomasia,

To quote you,

"I don’t think the writers of these text were attempting to have us believe that they were filled with some spirit that allowed them to envision life thousands of years prior to their own life, and this spirit showed them how it all came to be. But rather it’s the writer attempting to convey an underlying meaning for the order and chaos around him,..."

Smile. I can see how if you take my quote out of context, particularly by bolding one part of the sentence, and leaving the second part out: "some spirit that allowed them to envision life thousands of years prior to their own life" This doesn't mean they weren't inspired by God, in fact I believe they were.

Quote:So which is it, God-breathed or human inspiration?

I believe all scripture is God-breathed, i.e god inspired.
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22-10-2014, 05:11 PM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2014 05:22 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Jesus in the desert
(22-10-2014 04:53 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  You can't have it both ways. Either you believe that the entire Bible came from the mind of God including.....

So you're saying God-breathed/inspired means came from the mind of God? If I said a poem was inspired by my mother, would you take this to mean that it came from the mind of my mother? If not that please justify why the God-inspired should be understand differently that if I were to see, inspired by my mother?

We should probably question which one of us is actually using different standards here.
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22-10-2014, 05:14 PM
RE: Jesus in the desert
(22-10-2014 05:11 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-10-2014 04:53 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  You can't have it both ways. Either you believe that the entire Bible came from the mind of God including.....

So you're saying God-breathed/inspired means came from the mind of God? If I said a poem was inspired by my mother, would you take this to mean that it came from the mind of my mother? If not that please justify why the God-inspired should be understand differently that if I were to see, inspired by my mother?

Please describe what you mean by "God-breathed/inspired" because clearly you haven't done so.

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22-10-2014, 05:35 PM
RE: Jesus in the desert
(22-10-2014 05:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  Please describe what you mean by "God-breathed/inspired" because clearly you haven't done so.

Well, clearly you haven't either, especially when you're the one that appears to be using "inspired" in some way oddly different than used in any other context, such as this book was inspired by my mother.

When I say this Hymn was inspired by God, I mean inspired in the same way if I were to say the Hymn was inspired by anyone or anything else.

Inspired:

verb
past tense: inspired; past participle: inspired
1.
fill (someone) with the urge or ability to do or feel something, especially to do something creative.
"his passion for romantic literature inspired him to begin writing"

animate someone with (such a feeling).
"he inspired his students with a vision of freedom"
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22-10-2014, 05:56 PM
RE: Jesus in the desert
(22-10-2014 05:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  When I say this Hymn was inspired by God, I mean inspired in the same way if I were to say the Hymn was inspired by anyone or anything else.

In most circumstances the phrase "I was inspired by X" means that I admire some qualities of "X" and that made me want to emulate "X" or create something that would be a tribute to "X". The inspiration is a passive concept.

When theists talk about the bible writers being inspired by god it often seems to mean something different. They mean that god somehow put the actual words into their minds or that god helped them choose the right translations or the right books to include. It isn't that they wanted to create something that god would be proud of, it's more that they were a channel for god to create. The inspiration is an active process.

Do you read the bible using the first meaning? That it was written and compiled by men who were trying to praise the god they believed in and not that their god directed them in any deliberate, specific way?

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22-10-2014, 06:00 PM
RE: Jesus in the desert
(22-10-2014 05:35 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(22-10-2014 05:14 PM)Chas Wrote:  Please describe what you mean by "God-breathed/inspired" because clearly you haven't done so.

Well, clearly you haven't either, especially when you're the one that appears to be using "inspired" in some way oddly different than used in any other context, such as this book was inspired by my mother.

Well, that wasn't me. So, there's that. Drinking Beverage

Quote:When I say this Hymn was inspired by God, I mean inspired in the same way if I were to say the Hymn was inspired by anyone or anything else.

Inspired:

verb
past tense: inspired; past participle: inspired
1.
fill (someone) with the urge or ability to do or feel something, especially to do something creative.
"his passion for romantic literature inspired him to begin writing"

animate someone with (such a feeling).
"he inspired his students with a vision of freedom"

So it means that it all came out of the authors' minds. Every bit of it.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-10-2014, 06:19 PM
RE: Jesus in the desert
(18-10-2014 11:47 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  That's the standard method, at least with Christianity: instill fear, promise redemption with conditions, threaten ultimate suffering if you don't meet them. Everything else is just story telling for flavor. It's the fear of the unknown and the threat of eternal damnation that keeps people from questioning whether or not the stories are real.

Sounds like the US Republican Party.

(18-10-2014 11:47 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  That and church potlucks are always a good time, why trivialize it with logic and reality?

They are delicious. Especially when I don't have to bring anything but my disbelief. They fawn all over me trying to ply me with their wares. When they ask me what I think I say, "Same time next Sunday?"

#sigh
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