Jesus in the desert
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22-10-2014, 06:48 PM
RE: Jesus in the desert
(22-10-2014 05:56 PM)unfogged Wrote:  In most circumstances the phrase "I was inspired by X" means that I admire some qualities of "X" and that made me want to emulate "X" or create something that would be a tribute to "X". The inspiration is a passive concept.

I don't think "inspiration" is the same as paying tribute to what inspired you. In fact one can be inspired by certain qualities themselves. I can write something that was inspired by Love, or Justice, etc... In where I mean it was in contemplation of these various concepts that gave rise to what I wrote. That it's the qualities and essence of these things that I'm trying to express or embody in what I write, that someone else reading a poem about my mother, can come into some familiarity of what she embodied for me, or what she embodies as a person.

Quote:When theists talk about the bible writers being inspired by god it often seems to mean something different. They mean that god somehow put the actual words into their minds or that god helped them choose the right translations or the right books to include.

You mean these theist mean something different than what's commonly understood by "inspiration"? Because clearly when we say "inspiration" we don't mean someone putting actual words into our minds, in fact if this where the case than it wouldn't be inspiration. The writers then would be acting as stenographers, they would be writing dictations, not inspired writings. Because the last thing we say about the writings of stenographers is that they were inspired writings. So no I don't believe a passage about scripture being inspired by God, can be argued to mean along the lines of this. And that I understand inspired in the sense that I defined previously, or as commonly understood. If someone wants to argue that the writer of the particular passage meant something differently, that I would have to see a valid argument for this.

Quote:Do you read the bible using the first meaning? That it was written and compiled by men who were trying to praise the god they believed in and not that their god directed them in any deliberate, specific way?

No i don't think God dictated the bible with the writers of scripture basically acting like God's stenographers.

And no, I don't think that by these writers being inspired, that they were merely trying to praise God in their writings, but that they were inspired by the contemplation of God, to convey what they believe his purpose and meaning was, to share with their communities God's desire for justice, their significance as chosen people, the unveiling of the messiah, etc... They were inspired in contemplation of something greater than themselves, in some sort of underlying and sacred reality that they believed in, in which they may have only had glimpses of, or only seen through a glass darkly.

I don't think they were merely trying to praise God, but rather attempting to paint a portrait of who God is, and what he desires of man. And for Christians at least, that this God eventually revealed himself in the life and person of Christ.
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22-10-2014, 07:05 PM
RE: Jesus in the desert
Tomasia,
Why do you believe in YHWH rather than, say, Allah? Or Jove? What criteria do you use to pick one deity over the other?
Doc
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22-10-2014, 08:15 PM
RE: Jesus in the desert
(22-10-2014 06:48 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't think they were merely trying to praise God, but rather attempting to paint a portrait of who God is, and what he desires of man. And for Christians at least, that this God eventually revealed himself in the life and person of Christ.

Why thankyou, thankyou very much.
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22-10-2014, 08:43 PM
RE: Jesus in the desert
(22-10-2014 09:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Person A rose from the dead and healed Person B. Person B wrote down stuff some years or decades later after telling the stories of what he'd seen hundreds of times (witnessing). If Jesus rose from the dead, isn't that Occam's razor applied well? If Jesus didn't, you can play telephone with the literary criticism you are doing here.

We were talking about Jesus' temptation in the desert which of course happened before the alleged resurrection.

(22-10-2014 09:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Now no one I know who is a religious student or scholar/PhD denies that the writers of the Koran were people who knew and lived alongside Muhammed. Then again, you can pick apart issues and contradictions in the Koran with a few minutes of effort. Jesus is more threatening to non-believers as a concept and person, I find. Don't you?

Apparently, you really don't want to stay on topic. Whether Jesus is more or less threatening says nothing regarding whether it makes any sense for gospel writers to know what went on between Jesus and Satan in the desert decades earlier when no one else was around.

@DonaldTrump, Patriotism is not honoring your flag no matter what your country/leader does. It's doing whatever it takes to make your country the best it can be as long as its not violent.
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22-10-2014, 08:59 PM (This post was last modified: 22-10-2014 09:02 PM by Tomasia.)
RE: Jesus in the desert
(22-10-2014 07:05 PM)docskeptic Wrote:  Tomasia,
Why do you believe in YHWH rather than, say, Allah? Or Jove? What criteria do you use to pick one deity over the other?
Doc

Well I wouldn't say I don't believe in Allah, of Jehovah, since these terms just mean God, but if you mean why not Islam, or Judaism?

If so than the simple answer, revolves around the reason as to why I am a believer in the first place, and that is the question of Jesus.

While Muhammad, on one hand acknowledges Jesus as the messiah, and perfect, he couldn't bear with accepting that God would have allowed one of his own to die in such a humiliating way on the cross, or the concept of Jesus being the revealed God. And it was this sort of revulsion that led him to believe that the New Testament and the Gospels were a corruption of some sort of lost text. Muhammad found the person of Jesus compelling enough to not reject him completely, but couldn't deal in essence with the stumbling block he presented. It would probably would have been easier to reject Jesus completely, than to accept him half way like this, because this sort of acceptance comes with a number of problems.

The belief that Jesus was divine was an early belief, that was present as far as we can tell from the get go, as well the crucifixion at the hands of the Romans, so this doesn't allow much room for the existence of an earlier scripture void of these attributes. And the fact that Jesus was seen as so blasphemous to be stricken by Judaism, hints that he likely viewed himself as more than just a messiah claimant.

Or in other words, I don't find Muhammad's portrait of Jesus to be persuasive, in fact to me it's more persuasive to believe Jesus was sort of a likable lunatic, bipolar perhaps, who believed in his fits of mania, that he was on an important mission from God, as his chosen one, his own son, and got strung up by the Romans for being a nuisance.

Or in other words it would be easier for me to reject both christianity and islam, than accept islam over christianity.

Judaism on the other hand has long been a religion in decline, a religion that once fervently awaited the arrival of the messiah, that his absence for this long have forced them to accept that one isn't coming, and that its destiny to become the religion that waters the whole world, to be a non-occurence. Even if Christianity is false, they have at least made a more compelling vision of the jewish scripture, than the Jews ever have. Judaism may have been a persuasive religion 2000 years ago, but it's roots have long gone dry. In our world it would easier for me to accept atheism, than Judaism.

But at the end of day, as one who has encountered the Jesus of the Gospels, for me to accept another religion, or a worldview besides the one I currently hold, would be one that can make a more persuasive and compelling case of who he was and is. In this regard the only one I find even remotely compelling as an alternative, is one for atheism, rather than for a different theism.
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22-10-2014, 09:28 PM
RE: Jesus in the desert
(22-10-2014 08:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  But at the end of day, as one who has encountered the Jesus of the Gospels, for me to accept another religion, or a worldview besides the one I currently hold, would be one that can make a more persuasive and compelling case of who he was and is. In this regard the only one I find even remotely compelling as an alternative, is one for atheism, rather than for a different theism.

Holy cow! You're even more reasonable than I thought. To paraphrase Jesus, "You are not far from the truth".
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22-10-2014, 09:43 PM
RE: Jesus in the desert
(22-10-2014 08:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  as one who has encountered the Jesus of the Gospels

So you actually got to see the holes in his hands? Were they just kinda scarred up on each side, or could you see daylight through them?

Sorry if it seems a bit morbid, but I'm interested to know seeing as you've actually met the guy.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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22-10-2014, 09:53 PM
RE: Jesus in the desert
(22-10-2014 09:43 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  
(22-10-2014 08:59 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  as one who has encountered the Jesus of the Gospels

So you actually got to see the holes in his hands? Were they just kinda scarred up on each side, or could you see daylight through them?

No, more like in small piece of bread, and a 2oz cup of wine. Or after a night of very long drinking.
He could of possibly had holes in hands, or a slug through the side, or I might have mistaken him for the barkeep.
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22-10-2014, 10:23 PM
RE: Jesus in the desert
(22-10-2014 09:53 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  No, more like in small piece of bread, and a 2oz cup of wine. Or after a night of very long drinking.
He could of possibly had holes in hands, or a slug through the side, or I might have mistaken him for the barkeep.

Fair enough. You're not the only one around here to visit the divine, theist or otherwise.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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22-10-2014, 11:01 PM
RE: Jesus in the desert
(21-10-2014 12:02 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Perhaps you can provide a book about their being no god at all, explaining that most people who've ever lived are incorrect, that has evidence within and not reasoned (or angry) speculations?



The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins.

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