Jesus myth
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13-01-2014, 03:49 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(13-01-2014 03:25 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You were right to criticise me on the first point. Yet the fact that this commentator had to quote the commentary about him being a .com speculator is an ad hominem of a sort. It makes Atwill sound like A reckless amateur.


Atwill is an amateur, and it's his thesis that marks him as reckless, not his previous employment. The author of the article was doing their due diligence in letting their audience know that Atwill is not a professional or classically trained scholar, and that he comes from a tech investment rather than an academic background. He is not a Phd, he is not a professor or otherwise a professional instructor or researcher in the field. He does his own research and publishes his own books, all without submitting them to peer review. This is all important information to know, and if it reflects negatively on Atwill, how is that the fault of the author of the article? Is any of it untrue? Did anyone use it as the sole point of contention against his thesis? I didn't think so.



(13-01-2014 03:25 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I think the gospels were written in Greek for a number of reasons. Firstly, they were designed to appeal to Jews in the Diaspora, who spoke Greek. Secondly they were also very much designed to appeal to gentiles, who also spoke Greek. The propaganda was designed to dilute Judaism with Gentiles. Remember, at this early stage there was no intention to create an entirely new religion, Just an attempt to create a watered down version of Judaism.


But why? Why jump through all of the hoops, subterfuge, cloak-and-dagger conspiracy bullshit just to pull the wool over the eyes of your own citizens and the Jews who were the least problematic and most assimilated? Christianity did terrible in Palestine amongst the hardliners who actually were giving Rome trouble. If their objective was to subvert the hardliners, then they are idiots by their own standards; because if they're were smart enough to make this work, then they were smart enough to know that the hardliners would reflexively reject anything not in Hebrew (and especially Greek).



(13-01-2014 03:25 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  As far as the authorship of the Gospels is concerned, the bottom line is that nobody knows for sure who wrote the damn things. There were obviously many hands involved. Atwill's theory is just as plausible as any other.


No it's not, because it requires far more groundless assumptions. Occam's Razor makes it far more unlikely than similar theories that don't make nearly as many wild assumptions and stretches in logic. It could still be right, but as of right now with the evidence available to us, it's nowhere near the most probable theory.



(13-01-2014 03:25 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I've had a long hard think about your accident analogy. The important point is that both Carrier and Atwill think that there was an accident. In other words both authors think that the Roman government invented Christianity to undermine messianic Judaism. That is really big news if you think about it. It's not so important whether Titus is actually Jesus or not, Academic's could probably argue about this for weeks, the important point to grasp is that there is no truth behind Christianity... it's all one great big story.


But going from 'Paul, a roman citizen, was instrumental in the formation of Christianity as we now know it' is a far cry from 'Christianity was a creative plot of the Roman government to subvert Jewish militants in Palestine, and failed miserably to do so, but there it is'. How do you not see the incredible huge difference there?



(13-01-2014 03:25 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I do happen to think that Atwill's evidence is convincing, but accept that you and many others don't. Yet essentially we're all saying the same dam thing!


Unfortunately, knowing why you believe in something is far more important than what you believe in. So it's not enough to just say 'Atwill and Carrier both think Jesus is a myth, let's call it a day'. Sorry, some of us tend to be real sticklers about this.

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13-01-2014, 04:21 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(13-01-2014 03:49 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(13-01-2014 03:25 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You were right to criticise me on the first point. Yet the fact that this commentator had to quote the commentary about him being a .com speculator is an ad hominem of a sort. It makes Atwill sound like A reckless amateur.


Atwill is an amateur, and it's his thesis that marks him as reckless, not his previous employment. The author of the article was doing their due diligence in letting their audience know that Atwill is not a professional or classically trained scholar, and that he comes from a tech investment rather than an academic background. He is not a Phd, he is not a professor or otherwise a professional instructor or researcher in the field. He does his own research and publishes his own books, all without submitting them to peer review. This is all important information to know, and if it reflects negatively on Atwill, how is that the fault of the author of the article? Is any of it untrue? Did anyone use it as the sole point of contention against his thesis? I didn't think so.



(13-01-2014 03:25 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I think the gospels were written in Greek for a number of reasons. Firstly, they were designed to appeal to Jews in the Diaspora, who spoke Greek. Secondly they were also very much designed to appeal to gentiles, who also spoke Greek. The propaganda was designed to dilute Judaism with Gentiles. Remember, at this early stage there was no intention to create an entirely new religion, Just an attempt to create a watered down version of Judaism.


But why? Why jump through all of the hoops, subterfuge, cloak-and-dagger conspiracy bullshit just to pull the wool over the eyes of your own citizens and the Jews who were the least problematic and most assimilated? Christianity did terrible in Palestine amongst the hardliners who actually were giving Rome trouble. If their objective was to subvert the hardliners, then they are idiots by their own standards; because if they're were smart enough to make this work, then they were smart enough to know that the hardliners would reflexively reject anything not in Hebrew (and especially Greek).



(13-01-2014 03:25 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  As far as the authorship of the Gospels is concerned, the bottom line is that nobody knows for sure who wrote the damn things. There were obviously many hands involved. Atwill's theory is just as plausible as any other.


No it's not, because it requires far more groundless assumptions. Occam's Razor makes it far more unlikely than similar theories that don't make nearly as many wild assumptions and stretches in logic. It could still be right, but as of right now with the evidence available to us, it's nowhere near the most probable theory.



(13-01-2014 03:25 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I've had a long hard think about your accident analogy. The important point is that both Carrier and Atwill think that there was an accident. In other words both authors think that the Roman government invented Christianity to undermine messianic Judaism. That is really big news if you think about it. It's not so important whether Titus is actually Jesus or not, Academic's could probably argue about this for weeks, the important point to grasp is that there is no truth behind Christianity... it's all one great big story.


But going from 'Paul, a roman citizen, was instrumental in the formation of Christianity as we now know it' is a far cry from 'Christianity was a creative plot of the Roman government to subvert Jewish militants in Palestine, and failed miserably to do so, but there it is'. How do you not see the incredible huge difference there?



(13-01-2014 03:25 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I do happen to think that Atwill's evidence is convincing, but accept that you and many others don't. Yet essentially we're all saying the same dam thing!


Unfortunately, knowing why you believe in something is far more important than what you believe in. So it's not enough to just say 'Atwill and Carrier both think Jesus is a myth, let's call it a day'. Sorry, some of us tend to be real sticklers about this.

"Atwill is an amateur,"
agreed. That doesn't shoot his kneecaps off though.

"and it's his thesis that marks him as reckless,"
well....I would say he's brilliant, yet sometimes a little over imaginative.

"publishes his own books,"
he did have a publisher for his book in 2005...not that I think that makes him more credible

"But why? Why jump through all of the hoops, subterfuge, cloak-and-dagger conspiracy bullshit just to pull the wool over the eyes of your own citizens "

The government was trying to undermine messianic Judaism. They had used the military on many occasions yet still couldn't suppress it. After the first Jewish War I believe they decided to use economic suppression and propaganda.

"who were the least problematic and most assimilated?" No no no, this is the point. The bloody Jews just wouldn't behave themselves. Even the Jews in the diaspora caused trouble… regularly.

"Christianity did terrible in Palestine amongst the hardliners who actually were giving Rome trouble. If their objective was to subvert the hardliners, then they are idiots by their own standards; because if they're were smart enough to make this work, then they were smart enough to know that the hardliners would reflexively reject anything not in Hebrew (and especially Greek)."

Agreed! The whole thing was a failure!


"But going from 'Paul, a roman citizen, was instrumental in the formation of Christianity as we now know it' is a far cry from 'Christianity was a creative plot of the Roman government to subvert Jewish militants in Palestine, and failed miserably to do so, but there it is'. How do you not see the incredible huge difference there?"

Paul was a Roman government agent. He was an example of the pre war government's effort to subdue Judaism. He was a complete failure. Remember, his Christ wasn't actually Jesus. After the first war, the government tried a different tack. They invented the Jesus of the Gospels.

"Unfortunately, knowing why you believe in something is far more important than what you believe in. So it's not enough to just say 'Atwill and Carrier both think Jesus is a myth, let's call it a day'. Sorry, some of us tend to be real sticklers about this."

I'm not calling it a day or giving up on investigating the history. I'm just pointing out the commonality in various theories.
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13-01-2014, 07:00 AM
RE: Jesus myth
It's quite easy for the "thinking atheist" to prove Atwill's theory based on the evidence he presents, but you first need to at least agree that one book is based upon another (proof part 1). You then need to be able to understand the satire (proof part 2). It can then be proven that both books were authored by the same source (proof part 3): Flavians, who, in the process, invented Jesus and Christianity.

PARALLELS - VERBATIM / NEAR-VERBATIM
“good news” euaggelion in Greek (Luke 4:43 + Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 503)
boats vs. vessels + catch men vs. Romans caught them (Luke 5:1-10 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 520-527)
Sabbath + “right hand” vs. Seventh day + “right hands” (Luke 6:1-11 vs. WOTJ 4, 2, 92-104)
herd ran violently vs. wild beasts rushed + “into the” lake vs. “into the” current (Luke 8:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 8, 425, 434)
loose + bound (Luke 9:18 substituted by Matt. 16:19 + WOTJ 4, 10, 628-629)
the crowds were increasing vs. The Jews became still more and more in number (Luke 11:29 vs. WOTJ 5, 2, 78)
divided .. three .. two (Luke 12:52 + WOTJ 5, 3, 105)
“Cut down” fruit trees (Luke 13:7-9 + WOTJ 5, 3, 107)
“build a tower” (Luke 14:28-30 + WOTJ 5, 6, 258-260)
conditions “of peace” vs. terms “of peace” (Luke 14:32 vs. WOTJ 5, 6, 261)
stones “cry out” (Luke 19:40 + WOTJ 5, 6, 272)
build a wall around the Jews (Luke 19:43-44 + WOTJ 5, 12, 499)
sacrifice cease vs. sacrifice failed (Luke 21:10-11, 20 linked to Dan. 9:27 vs. WOTJ 6, 2, 94)
temple vs. HOLY HOUSE + signs + not one stone left vs. DESTRUCTION (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs./+ WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
(Jesus): woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + “give up the ghost” (was also crucified and scourged) (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
in Christ’s name vs. God commanded them + false prophets + deceived many vs. imposed on the people (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
famine + pestilences vs. mouth almost closed + earthquakes vs. quaking (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
thief vs. robbers + houses vs. into the city (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
east + west + “four winds” + “bridegrooms and the brides” (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 and Matt 25:1 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
nursing babies vs. child sucking at breast (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 6,3,203)
Zach: murdered between the temple and the altar vs. in the middle of the temple, and slew him (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343)
two + died + crucified + (one survives) “taken down” (by Joseph)(Luke 23:50-53 linked to Luke 23:32-33 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to Life of Flavius Josephus 75)
John: evil vs. wicked + condemned (but lives in) prison + Iscariot vs. Sicarii +
Simon: cutting himself with stones vs. stone-cutters + condemned + death vs. slain (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)

PARALLELS - NAMES AND LOCATIONS
“Lake of Gennesaret” (Luke 5:1-10 + Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 463)
Jesus and his apostles vs. Jesus and his party (Luke 5:1-10 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 467)
Chorazin produces the Coracin fish (Luke 5:10 linked to Matt 11:21 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 520-527)
John (Luke 7:33 + Wars of the Jews 4, 7, 389)
Gadara (Luke 8:26-30 + WOTJ 4, 7, 413)
Mary (Luke 22:19 linked to Luke 2:34 + WOTJ 6, 3, 201-209)
Jesus (Luke 23:46 + WOTJ 6, 5, 298-315)
Zechariah, son of Berechiah vs. Zacharias the son of Baruch (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343)
Joseph of Arimathea vs. Josephus bar Matthias (Luke 23:50-53 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to Life of Flavius Josephus 75)
John (disciple whom Jesus loved) + Simon (Peter) (Luke 24:16, 37 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 7, 10, 418)
Simon bar Jonas vs. Simon bar Gioras

PARALLELS - CONCEPTUAL
Son sent by father (Luke 4:42-43 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 446)
Taking the lead + reassurance (Luke 5:1-10 linked to Matt. 4:19 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 483-484)
fish vs. attempted to swim + began to sink vs. drowning (Luke 5:1-10 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 520-527)
demon vs. tyrannize and wickedest (Luke 7:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 7, 389 linked to WOTJ 7, 6, 185)
Legion vs. too small for an army, and too many for a gang of thieves (WOTJ 4, 7, 408)
demons entering swine vs. running together to a certain village and arming many young men, i.e. one group infecting another (Luke 8:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 8, 420-421)
On to Jerusalem - the messengers are sent ahead (Luke 9:52 vs. WOTJ 5, 1, 40)
Human Passover lamb (Luke 22:19 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6, 3, 201-209 linked to other passages)
houses on fire - unable to enter nor retrieve cloths (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
Caesar and the Roman army coming down and killing many Jews (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 and Dan 7:13 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
Dead bodies underground with a foul smell (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)
Martyrs death into a “proper place” following Jesus’ death (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)
Doubt in their Lord’s identity (Luke 24:16, 37 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 7, 10, 418)

Code:
Luke 4:42-43                good news (euaggelion) .. God .. I have been sent (Jesus)      
                            Sent away his son Titus ..                     WOTJ 3,9,446 + 3,10,503
                            good news (euaggelion)
Luke 5:1-10                 Lake of Gennesaret .. He (Jesus) .. Simon .. fish ..
                            boats .. began to sink .. Simon Peter .. Do not be afraid .. Catch men
Matt 4:19                   Follow Me .. fishers of men
     Matt 11:21             Chorazin (Galilean fishing village/peoples)                  
                            lake of Gennesaret .. Jesus and his party..    WOTJ 3,10,463-484, 520-527
                            produces the Coracin fish ..
                            vessels .. Romans caught them ..
                            drowning .. attempted to swim .. I shall go into danger first ..
                            Do not you therefore desert me
Luke 6:1-11                 Sabbath .. right hand
                            Seventh day .. right hands                     WOTJ 4,2,92-104
Luke 7:33, 8:26-30          John .. has a demon .. Gadarenes .. Legion
                            John .. beginning to tyrannize .. wickedest .. WOTJ 4,7,389,408,413
                            too small for an army, and too many for a gang of thieves .. Gadara
                            John ... filled the entire countryside  WOTJ 7,8,263
                            with ten thousand instances of wickedness  
                            Demons ... are no other than            WOTJ 7,6,185
                            the spirits of the wicked
Luke 8:33                   demons went out of the man and entered the swine ..
                            herd ran violently .. into the lake
                            they ran together to a certain village ..      WOTJ 4,8,420-421,425,434
                            great multitude of young men, arming them ..
                            wild beasts rushed .. into the current
Luke 9:18(Matt 16:19), 9:52 bound .. loosed .. He steadfastly set His face
                            to go to Jerusalem, and sent messengers before
                            loose .. bound .. ordered the rest to meet him WOTJ 4,10,628-629 + 5,1,40
                            at Jerusalem, marched out
Luke 11:29, 12:52, 13:7-9   the crowds were increasing .. divided .. three .. two ..
                            tree .. fruit .. cut it down
                            The Jews became still more and more in number  WOTJ 5,2,78 + 5,3,105,107
                            .. divided .. three .. two .. cut down .. fruit trees
Luke 14:28-32, 19:40        intending to build a tower .. conditions of peace .. stones .. cry out
                            might make an impression upon the walls        WOTJ 5,6,258-261,272
                            .. build .. tower .. terms of peace .. stone .. cried out
Luke 19:43-44               build an embankment around you ..
                            close you in .. and your children
                            build a wall round about the whole city ..     WOTJ 5,12,499
                            prevent the Jews from coming out
Luke 21:10-11, 20           kingdom against kingdom .. earthquakes ..
                            famines .. pestilences .. desolation
     Matt. 24:7, 15         kingdom against kingdom .. famines .. pestilences
                            .. earthquakes .. abomination of desolation
     Dan. 9:27              sacrifice .. cease .. abominations .. desolate
                            sacrifice .. failed                            WOTJ 6, 2, 94
Luke 22:19                  bread .. gave .. this is my body
     Mark 14:22             Jesus took bread .. eat .. this is my body
     John 19:29-33          hyssop .. Jesus .. dead .. they did not break his legs
     Luke 2:34-35           Mary .. his Mother .. Child .. pierce through your own soul
     Exodus 12:9, 12:21-22  roasted .. with its legs .. Passover lamb .. hyssop
                            Mary .. Hyssop .. famine .. pierced            WOTJ 6,3,201-209
                            through her very bowels .. slew her son .. roasted him ..
                            eat .. half of him .. saved a .. portion (splanchon)
                            siege .. Jerusalem ..                   WOTJ 6,9,420-421
                            feast of unleavened bread .. famine
                            Jews .. besieged .. famine                     Severus, Sacred History 2.30
                            .. eating .. human bodies
Luke 23:46                  Jesus .. gave up the ghost
     Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44  Jesus spoke .. woe .. Woe .. Woe .. Woe ..
                            Woe .. Woe .. Woe .. Woe

                            Zechariah, son of Berechiah ..
                            murdered between the temple and the altar

                            the temple .. Jesus said ..  
                            not one stone shall be left here upon another

                            sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?
                            will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many

                            will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes

                            many false prophets will rise up and deceive many

                            Let him .. on the housetop not .. take anything out of his house
                            .. not go back to get his clothes.

                            woe to those who are pregnant .. nursing babies .. lightning comes ..
                            east .. west .. coming of the Son of Man

                            wherever the carcass is .. eagles will be gathered together.
                            Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven ..
                            will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet .. four winds

                            the thief would come .. house to be broken into

     Matt 25:1              bridegroom and the bride.
     Dan 7:13               Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven!        
                            THE HOLY HOUSE ..                              WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315  
                            THE SIGNS THAT PRECEDED THIS DESTRUCTION
                            many ..  worn away by the famine .. mouths almost closed
                            multitude of the robbers .. into the city
                            round about the holy house, burnt all those places ..
                            money .. garments .. precious goods reposited
                            God commanded them .. great number of false prophets ..
                            impose on the people
                            chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor
                            were seen running about among the clouds
                            felt a quaking
                            Jesus .. to cry aloud
                            east .. west .. four winds
                            .. bridegrooms and the brides
                            took up the man .. number of severe stripes ..
                            Woe, woe .. uttered .. Woe, woe .. Woe, woe ..
                            Woe, woe.. gave up the ghost
                            Zacharias the son of Baruch ..          WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343  
                            in the middle of the temple, and slew him
                            child sucking at her breast             WOTJ 6,3,203
Luke 23:50-53               Joseph .. from Arimathea .. body of Jesus .. took it down
     Luke 23:32-33          two .. death .. crucified
                            crucified .. taken down (by             Life of Flavius Josephus 75
                            Josephus bar Matthias) .. two died
Luke 23:56, 24:12           prepared spices and fragrant oils .. Peter ran to the tomb .. stooping down

     Mark 5:1-5             man with an unclean spirit .. tombs .. cutting himself with stones

     Mark 8:28-29           two demon-possessed men .. tombs

     John 6:70-71           one is a devil .. Simon the Iscariot

     John 21:18-24          another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go

                            kind of death .. to glorify God .. Follow me .. Peter

                            disciple whom Jesus loved .. it is my will that he remains

     Luke 22:31-31          Peter .. ready to go both to prison and to death      

     Matt 16:22-25          Peter .. Satan .. Jesus told his diciples ..
                            take up his cross and follow me

     Luke 23:26             Simon .. cross, for him to carry it behind Jesus

     Gal 2:11               Cephas (Simon) .. condemned

     John 5:26-29           all who are in the graves ..

                            evil .. resurrection of condemnation

                            search .. under ground ..                      WOTJ 6,9,429-434
                            ill savor of the dead bodies .. Simon .. slain ..

                            John condemned to perpetual imprisonment

                            John .. Sicarii .. wickedness           WOTJ 7,8,263

                            Simon .. among .. stone-cutters         WOTJ 7,2,26

                            Simon drawn into a proper place         WOTJ 7,5,154
Luke 24:16, 37              But their eyes were kept from recognising him ..
                            supposed they had seen a spirit
     Matt. 28:17            When they saw Him, they worshiped Him, but some doubted
     Mark 16:12             he appeared in another form
     John 21:4              the disciples did not know that it was Jesus
                            they could not get any one of them ..          WOTJ 7,10,418
                            to confess, that Caesar was their lord

Do you get part 1? Colour-coded here:
http://www.caesarsmessiahproven.com/summary.htm
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13-01-2014, 10:14 AM
RE: Jesus myth
Quote:The author of the article was doing their due diligence in letting their audience know that Atwill is not a professional or classically trained scholar, and that he comes from a tech investment rather than an academic background.


Heinrich Schliemann was also an amateur. He had an inspired idea and found a series of Bronze Ages towns in a tell on the Hellespont because of his obsession with Homer. He also did an amazing amount of damage to the site because of his methods, drew unsustainable conclusions from his finds and ended up breaking the law by smuggling treasure out of the site.

Atwill is not that bad insofar as the amount of damage caused but I do see him almost as the religious "archeologists" of the early 20th century who went out to the holy land determined to "prove" the bible true. Similar to........

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13-01-2014, 03:50 PM (This post was last modified: 13-01-2014 04:01 PM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus myth
(13-01-2014 07:00 AM)gilius2k14 Wrote:  It's quite easy for the "thinking atheist" to prove Atwill's theory based on the evidence he presents, but you first need to at least agree that one book is based upon another (proof part 1). You then need to be able to understand the satire (proof part 2). It can then be proven that both books were authored by the same source (proof part 3): Flavians, who, in the process, invented Jesus and Christianity.

PARALLELS - VERBATIM / NEAR-VERBATIM
“good news” euaggelion in Greek (Luke 4:43 + Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 503)
boats vs. vessels + catch men vs. Romans caught them (Luke 5:1-10 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 520-527)
Sabbath + “right hand” vs. Seventh day + “right hands” (Luke 6:1-11 vs. WOTJ 4, 2, 92-104)
herd ran violently vs. wild beasts rushed + “into the” lake vs. “into the” current (Luke 8:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 8, 425, 434)
loose + bound (Luke 9:18 substituted by Matt. 16:19 + WOTJ 4, 10, 628-629)
the crowds were increasing vs. The Jews became still more and more in number (Luke 11:29 vs. WOTJ 5, 2, 78)
divided .. three .. two (Luke 12:52 + WOTJ 5, 3, 105)
“Cut down” fruit trees (Luke 13:7-9 + WOTJ 5, 3, 107)
“build a tower” (Luke 14:28-30 + WOTJ 5, 6, 258-260)
conditions “of peace” vs. terms “of peace” (Luke 14:32 vs. WOTJ 5, 6, 261)
stones “cry out” (Luke 19:40 + WOTJ 5, 6, 272)
build a wall around the Jews (Luke 19:43-44 + WOTJ 5, 12, 499)
sacrifice cease vs. sacrifice failed (Luke 21:10-11, 20 linked to Dan. 9:27 vs. WOTJ 6, 2, 94)
temple vs. HOLY HOUSE + signs + not one stone left vs. DESTRUCTION (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs./+ WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
(Jesus): woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + “give up the ghost” (was also crucified and scourged) (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
in Christ’s name vs. God commanded them + false prophets + deceived many vs. imposed on the people (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
famine + pestilences vs. mouth almost closed + earthquakes vs. quaking (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
thief vs. robbers + houses vs. into the city (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
east + west + “four winds” + “bridegrooms and the brides” (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 and Matt 25:1 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
nursing babies vs. child sucking at breast (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 6,3,203)
Zach: murdered between the temple and the altar vs. in the middle of the temple, and slew him (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343)
two + died + crucified + (one survives) “taken down” (by Joseph)(Luke 23:50-53 linked to Luke 23:32-33 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to Life of Flavius Josephus 75)
John: evil vs. wicked + condemned (but lives in) prison + Iscariot vs. Sicarii +
Simon: cutting himself with stones vs. stone-cutters + condemned + death vs. slain (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)

PARALLELS - NAMES AND LOCATIONS
“Lake of Gennesaret” (Luke 5:1-10 + Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 463)
Jesus and his apostles vs. Jesus and his party (Luke 5:1-10 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 467)
Chorazin produces the Coracin fish (Luke 5:10 linked to Matt 11:21 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 520-527)
John (Luke 7:33 + Wars of the Jews 4, 7, 389)
Gadara (Luke 8:26-30 + WOTJ 4, 7, 413)
Mary (Luke 22:19 linked to Luke 2:34 + WOTJ 6, 3, 201-209)
Jesus (Luke 23:46 + WOTJ 6, 5, 298-315)
Zechariah, son of Berechiah vs. Zacharias the son of Baruch (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343)
Joseph of Arimathea vs. Josephus bar Matthias (Luke 23:50-53 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to Life of Flavius Josephus 75)
John (disciple whom Jesus loved) + Simon (Peter) (Luke 24:16, 37 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 7, 10, 418)
Simon bar Jonas vs. Simon bar Gioras

PARALLELS - CONCEPTUAL
Son sent by father (Luke 4:42-43 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 446)
Taking the lead + reassurance (Luke 5:1-10 linked to Matt. 4:19 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 483-484)
fish vs. attempted to swim + began to sink vs. drowning (Luke 5:1-10 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 520-527)
demon vs. tyrannize and wickedest (Luke 7:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 7, 389 linked to WOTJ 7, 6, 185)
Legion vs. too small for an army, and too many for a gang of thieves (WOTJ 4, 7, 408)
demons entering swine vs. running together to a certain village and arming many young men, i.e. one group infecting another (Luke 8:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 8, 420-421)
On to Jerusalem - the messengers are sent ahead (Luke 9:52 vs. WOTJ 5, 1, 40)
Human Passover lamb (Luke 22:19 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6, 3, 201-209 linked to other passages)
houses on fire - unable to enter nor retrieve cloths (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
Caesar and the Roman army coming down and killing many Jews (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 and Dan 7:13 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
Dead bodies underground with a foul smell (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)
Martyrs death into a “proper place” following Jesus’ death (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)
Doubt in their Lord’s identity (Luke 24:16, 37 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 7, 10, 418)

Code:
Luke 4:42-43                good news (euaggelion) .. God .. I have been sent (Jesus)      
                            Sent away his son Titus ..                     WOTJ 3,9,446 + 3,10,503
                            good news (euaggelion)
Luke 5:1-10                 Lake of Gennesaret .. He (Jesus) .. Simon .. fish ..
                            boats .. began to sink .. Simon Peter .. Do not be afraid .. Catch men
Matt 4:19                   Follow Me .. fishers of men
     Matt 11:21             Chorazin (Galilean fishing village/peoples)                  
                            lake of Gennesaret .. Jesus and his party..    WOTJ 3,10,463-484, 520-527
                            produces the Coracin fish ..
                            vessels .. Romans caught them ..
                            drowning .. attempted to swim .. I shall go into danger first ..
                            Do not you therefore desert me
Luke 6:1-11                 Sabbath .. right hand
                            Seventh day .. right hands                     WOTJ 4,2,92-104
Luke 7:33, 8:26-30          John .. has a demon .. Gadarenes .. Legion
                            John .. beginning to tyrannize .. wickedest .. WOTJ 4,7,389,408,413
                            too small for an army, and too many for a gang of thieves .. Gadara
                            John ... filled the entire countryside  WOTJ 7,8,263
                            with ten thousand instances of wickedness  
                            Demons ... are no other than            WOTJ 7,6,185
                            the spirits of the wicked
Luke 8:33                   demons went out of the man and entered the swine ..
                            herd ran violently .. into the lake
                            they ran together to a certain village ..      WOTJ 4,8,420-421,425,434
                            great multitude of young men, arming them ..
                            wild beasts rushed .. into the current
Luke 9:18(Matt 16:19), 9:52 bound .. loosed .. He steadfastly set His face
                            to go to Jerusalem, and sent messengers before
                            loose .. bound .. ordered the rest to meet him WOTJ 4,10,628-629 + 5,1,40
                            at Jerusalem, marched out
Luke 11:29, 12:52, 13:7-9   the crowds were increasing .. divided .. three .. two ..
                            tree .. fruit .. cut it down
                            The Jews became still more and more in number  WOTJ 5,2,78 + 5,3,105,107
                            .. divided .. three .. two .. cut down .. fruit trees
Luke 14:28-32, 19:40        intending to build a tower .. conditions of peace .. stones .. cry out
                            might make an impression upon the walls        WOTJ 5,6,258-261,272
                            .. build .. tower .. terms of peace .. stone .. cried out
Luke 19:43-44               build an embankment around you ..
                            close you in .. and your children
                            build a wall round about the whole city ..     WOTJ 5,12,499
                            prevent the Jews from coming out
Luke 21:10-11, 20           kingdom against kingdom .. earthquakes ..
                            famines .. pestilences .. desolation
     Matt. 24:7, 15         kingdom against kingdom .. famines .. pestilences
                            .. earthquakes .. abomination of desolation
     Dan. 9:27              sacrifice .. cease .. abominations .. desolate
                            sacrifice .. failed                            WOTJ 6, 2, 94
Luke 22:19                  bread .. gave .. this is my body
     Mark 14:22             Jesus took bread .. eat .. this is my body
     John 19:29-33          hyssop .. Jesus .. dead .. they did not break his legs
     Luke 2:34-35           Mary .. his Mother .. Child .. pierce through your own soul
     Exodus 12:9, 12:21-22  roasted .. with its legs .. Passover lamb .. hyssop
                            Mary .. Hyssop .. famine .. pierced            WOTJ 6,3,201-209
                            through her very bowels .. slew her son .. roasted him ..
                            eat .. half of him .. saved a .. portion (splanchon)
                            siege .. Jerusalem ..                   WOTJ 6,9,420-421
                            feast of unleavened bread .. famine
                            Jews .. besieged .. famine                     Severus, Sacred History 2.30
                            .. eating .. human bodies
Luke 23:46                  Jesus .. gave up the ghost
     Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44  Jesus spoke .. woe .. Woe .. Woe .. Woe ..
                            Woe .. Woe .. Woe .. Woe

                            Zechariah, son of Berechiah ..
                            murdered between the temple and the altar

                            the temple .. Jesus said ..  
                            not one stone shall be left here upon another

                            sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?
                            will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many

                            will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes

                            many false prophets will rise up and deceive many

                            Let him .. on the housetop not .. take anything out of his house
                            .. not go back to get his clothes.

                            woe to those who are pregnant .. nursing babies .. lightning comes ..
                            east .. west .. coming of the Son of Man

                            wherever the carcass is .. eagles will be gathered together.
                            Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven ..
                            will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet .. four winds

                            the thief would come .. house to be broken into

     Matt 25:1              bridegroom and the bride.
     Dan 7:13               Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven!        
                            THE HOLY HOUSE ..                              WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315  
                            THE SIGNS THAT PRECEDED THIS DESTRUCTION
                            many ..  worn away by the famine .. mouths almost closed
                            multitude of the robbers .. into the city
                            round about the holy house, burnt all those places ..
                            money .. garments .. precious goods reposited
                            God commanded them .. great number of false prophets ..
                            impose on the people
                            chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor
                            were seen running about among the clouds
                            felt a quaking
                            Jesus .. to cry aloud
                            east .. west .. four winds
                            .. bridegrooms and the brides
                            took up the man .. number of severe stripes ..
                            Woe, woe .. uttered .. Woe, woe .. Woe, woe ..
                            Woe, woe.. gave up the ghost
                            Zacharias the son of Baruch ..          WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343  
                            in the middle of the temple, and slew him
                            child sucking at her breast             WOTJ 6,3,203
Luke 23:50-53               Joseph .. from Arimathea .. body of Jesus .. took it down
     Luke 23:32-33          two .. death .. crucified
                            crucified .. taken down (by             Life of Flavius Josephus 75
                            Josephus bar Matthias) .. two died
Luke 23:56, 24:12           prepared spices and fragrant oils .. Peter ran to the tomb .. stooping down

     Mark 5:1-5             man with an unclean spirit .. tombs .. cutting himself with stones

     Mark 8:28-29           two demon-possessed men .. tombs

     John 6:70-71           one is a devil .. Simon the Iscariot

     John 21:18-24          another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go

                            kind of death .. to glorify God .. Follow me .. Peter

                            disciple whom Jesus loved .. it is my will that he remains

     Luke 22:31-31          Peter .. ready to go both to prison and to death      

     Matt 16:22-25          Peter .. Satan .. Jesus told his diciples ..
                            take up his cross and follow me

     Luke 23:26             Simon .. cross, for him to carry it behind Jesus

     Gal 2:11               Cephas (Simon) .. condemned

     John 5:26-29           all who are in the graves ..

                            evil .. resurrection of condemnation

                            search .. under ground ..                      WOTJ 6,9,429-434
                            ill savor of the dead bodies .. Simon .. slain ..

                            John condemned to perpetual imprisonment

                            John .. Sicarii .. wickedness           WOTJ 7,8,263

                            Simon .. among .. stone-cutters         WOTJ 7,2,26

                            Simon drawn into a proper place         WOTJ 7,5,154
Luke 24:16, 37              But their eyes were kept from recognising him ..
                            supposed they had seen a spirit
     Matt. 28:17            When they saw Him, they worshiped Him, but some doubted
     Mark 16:12             he appeared in another form
     John 21:4              the disciples did not know that it was Jesus
                            they could not get any one of them ..          WOTJ 7,10,418
                            to confess, that Caesar was their lord

Do you get part 1? Colour-coded here:
http://www.caesarsmessiahproven.com/summary.htm

Hi Gilius, and welcome!

Wow! You or someone else has put in a lot of work. Thankyou!

Please tell us more about yourself, and what you think of Atwill's theory.

Please post parts two and three!
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13-01-2014, 05:02 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(13-01-2014 10:14 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:The author of the article was doing their due diligence in letting their audience know that Atwill is not a professional or classically trained scholar, and that he comes from a tech investment rather than an academic background.


Heinrich Schliemann was also an amateur. He had an inspired idea and found a series of Bronze Ages towns in a tell on the Hellespont because of his obsession with Homer. He also did an amazing amount of damage to the site because of his methods, drew unsustainable conclusions from his finds and ended up breaking the law by smuggling treasure out of the site.

Atwill is not that bad insofar as the amount of damage caused but I do see him almost as the religious "archeologists" of the early 20th century who went out to the holy land determined to "prove" the bible true. Similar to........

[Image: Creationsim.gif]

It's unfortunate that so many academics get so passionate when someone challenges their long held views. I'm not saying this about you, but about Carrier for example. The fact is its a damn interesting discussion whether Atwill is right or wrong.
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13-01-2014, 05:52 PM
RE: Jesus myth
Thanks Mark!

I think Atwill's theory is mathematically sound, but unfortunately most people are not intelligent/rational enough to understand probability, patterns in sequence, the trees amongst the forest or indeed the bigger picture. However, a lot of people can be very knowledgeable and hold PHDs even, yet their IQ might be somewhat low. Part of this problem is to do with social conditioning, and the same forces that invented Christianity are still at work today based around belief systems and people calling upon authority figures rather than trying to analyse evidence themselves. People are trapped inside various hybrid cultures and have lost the ability to reason, so they have no way of understanding Caesar's Messiah or they may not even care about the truth, but prefer to feed their ego by devaluing others. I think the Flavians knew this, hence there was no real danger of their invention being known other than by a minority. And unless you've studied psychopaths or watched old Korean movies, most of today's cultures wouldn't even understand the satire or dark comedy that's based heavily around humiliation of the Jews. The Flavians used the method of Typology, which I never knew was so powerful. I even created my own typology based on North Korea just to test out the idea. The Flavians were very intellectual, hence they wanted to inform posterity not only about Christianity, but also some additional information about the Sicarii, Maccabees, the real authors of the New Testament, and faith in one's self instead of a divine being, etc. They created editorial spin on who could become a Christian based on the Jewish membership template and requirements before destroying their "membership form", but which fortunately turned up in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Vespasian was said to perform the same miracles as the character Jesus using spittle on his hands to cure blindness.

I think Joe makes the parallel system to be slightly more complex than it really is. My analysis seems to show that the Flavians created initial entry points for all the interactive/intertextual parallels so that they occur in proper sequence without having to try to place them based on past tense, etc. For example, my summary does not include Eleazar because it's separate to the sequence as well as being quite complicated. Joe figured it was an isolated story mainly from John, but I believe I've found out exactly how it fits into the sequence along with Simon and John's condemnation, the woe saying Jesus, crucifixion, and "doubt in the Lord's identity". Mary Magdalene is based on the word "tower", so I think Eleazar has 2 entry points: Martha and Mary's house (gospels) = "Women's Towers" in Josephus, since once the books have been broken down into 40-50 parts everything falls in place without trying to "over tweak" the model so to speak. The Flavians simply wanted their oligarchs to read one book, memorise the sequence of events, certain words, names and locations, before reading Wars of the Jews and seeing the parallels, satire, Jesus being the archetype to Titus, Jesus' prophecies being fulfilled by Titus, and the Son of Man who really did COMETH!

Anyway, it's a waste of time trying to explain the maths to people because they just won't get it - for various reasons. It's easier to fool someone than it is to convince them they've been fooled. All you get is straw man debunks, personal attacks towards Atwill, discussion about Christianity away from the origin (which is all that we are really discussing here), talk about Tacitus. If you try and force somebody to use their brain and analyse the patterns, after many defiant responses they will end up giving the most incoherent, non-sensical reply; in other words they have one of those "mad" moments upon reaching the limit of their intelligence. It happened with Richard Carrier, who tries his utmost on command of his "Atheist Celebrities" to stop anyone from seeing a pattern. I simply described to him that "Jesus" gets taken up and scourged, i.e. crucified, said "Woe" 8 times then literally "gave up the ghost". The satire is that Jesus saw himself as a stone that could crush, but gets killed by a stone from a Roman siege engine. And that's just one parallel out of 40+ and one piece of satire out of another 40+ (80+ elements). Carrier then had one of those "mad" moments without even showing him the other 39 parallels, which is forbidden to present simultaneously on his blog. You can get someone to agree that it's stupid to walk in front of a speeding truck, but to get them to see that the gospels are based on Josephus (or vice versa) is beyond most people's comprehension, so they will get literally "stuck" somewhere during the steps in-between and will try to cover up their lack of intelligence in many ways: outright dismissal, judging the credibility of the person presenting the evidence, calling upon authority figures, ridiculing or talking nonsense, or accusing Atwill of parallel mania.

The problem with the Parallelmania theory (or design on the part of the interpreter or person making the comparison) is that, in the case of Caesar's Messiah, the parallels are occurring in sequence: (1-5, say = beginning, quarter-way, halfway, three quarter-way, end)

1. Good news, sent by father
2. loose and bound, divide 3 against 2, cut down fruit trees
3. Human Passover Lamb
4. Woe saying Jesus who gave up the ghost and was crucified
5. Doubt in their Lord's identity

Example of Typology I designed myself:

MOVIE A

16:00 - A Westerner travels to North Korea and is wearing factor 3 sun cream
33:00 - The Westerner takes off a pair of trousers
62:00 - The Westerner walks past a department store and sees luxuries
73:00 - The Westerner is told by the tour guide about the leaders of the country
84:00 - The Westerner travels back to the US

MOVIE B

16:00 - A native visits a capital city and sees 3 giant posters of men
33:00 - The native is told by a police officer to change one item of their clothing
62:00 - The native enters a shop but is told nothing is for sale to anyone but they are only there for show, for sake of the foreign media.
73:00 - The native makes a gibe about one of the men in the posters
84:00 - The native is not allowed to return home and is instead taken to a prison camp

How can you detect that mine is designed and authored by a common source (me) or that I got Movie A from somewhere else and did my own Movie B?

Understanding this, i.e. Patterns, Probability and Typology is all related to Part 1 of the proof that the Flavians invented Christianity. But in Parts 2 and 3 I can show that it's possible to know that the Flavians actually wrote both the gospels and Wars of the Jews or that I did both Movies A and Movies B (I didn't just do one of them). But unless people get part 1 there's no point proceeding..

Vespasian performing the same miracles as Jesus
After thus speaking, He spat on the ground, and then, kneading the dust and spittle into clay, He smeared the clay over the man's eyes and said to him, "Go and wash in the pool of Siloam" --the name means `Sent.' So he went and washed his eyes, and returned able to see.
John 6:6-7

"One of the common people of Alexandria, well known for his blindness, threw himself at the Emperor's knees, and implored him with groans to heal his infirmity. . .He begged Vespasian that he would design to moisten his cheeks and eye-balls with his spittle. Another with a diseased hand, at the counsel of the same God, prayed that the limb might feel the print of a Caesar's foot. At first Vespasian ridiculed and repulsed them. . .And so Vespasian, supposing that all things were possible to his good fortune, and that nothing was any longer past belief, with a joyful countenance, amid the intense expectation of the multitude of bystanders, accomplished what was required."
Tacitus, The Histories, 4.81.

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13-01-2014, 06:32 PM
RE: Jesus myth
Its actually proven FACT that Jesus Character was based off "Horus"


Dreams/Hallucinations/delusions are not evidence
Wishful thinking is not evidence
Disproved statements&Illogical conclusions are not evidence
Logical fallacies&Unsubstantiated claims are not evidence
Vague prophecies is not evidence
Data that requires a certain belief is not evidence
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13-01-2014, 07:16 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(13-01-2014 06:32 PM)IndianAtheist Wrote:  Its actually proven FACT that Jesus Character was based off "Horus"

No. No it isn't.

Jesus is pure helleno-judaic syncretism. The old Egyptian religion had very little to do with it, and was for that matter very little practised by the first century anyway.

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13-01-2014, 09:59 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(13-01-2014 05:52 PM)gilius2k14 Wrote:  Thanks Mark!

I think Atwill's theory is mathematically sound, but unfortunately most people are not intelligent/rational enough to understand probability, patterns in sequence, the trees amongst the forest or indeed the bigger picture. However, a lot of people can be very knowledgeable and hold PHDs even, yet their IQ might be somewhat low. Part of this problem is to do with social conditioning, and the same forces that invented Christianity are still at work today based around belief systems and people calling upon authority figures rather than trying to analyse evidence themselves. People are trapped inside various hybrid cultures and have lost the ability to reason, so they have no way of understanding Caesar's Messiah or they may not even care about the truth, but prefer to feed their ego by devaluing others. I think the Flavians knew this, hence there was no real danger of their invention being known other than by a minority. And unless you've studied psychopaths or watched old Korean movies, most of today's cultures wouldn't even understand the satire or dark comedy that's based heavily around humiliation of the Jews. The Flavians used the method of Typology, which I never knew was so powerful. I even created my own typology based on North Korea just to test out the idea. The Flavians were very intellectual, hence they wanted to inform posterity not only about Christianity, but also some additional information about the Sicarii, Maccabees, the real authors of the New Testament, and faith in one's self instead of a divine being, etc. They created editorial spin on who could become a Christian based on the Jewish membership template and requirements before destroying their "membership form", but which fortunately turned up in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Vespasian was said to perform the same miracles as the character Jesus using spittle on his hands to cure blindness.

I think Joe makes the parallel system to be slightly more complex than it really is. My analysis seems to show that the Flavians created initial entry points for all the interactive/intertextual parallels so that they occur in proper sequence without having to try to place them based on past tense, etc. For example, my summary does not include Eleazar because it's separate to the sequence as well as being quite complicated. Joe figured it was an isolated story mainly from John, but I believe I've found out exactly how it fits into the sequence along with Simon and John's condemnation, the woe saying Jesus, crucifixion, and "doubt in the Lord's identity". Mary Magdalene is based on the word "tower", so I think Eleazar has 2 entry points: Martha and Mary's house (gospels) = "Women's Towers" in Josephus, since once the books have been broken down into 40-50 parts everything falls in place without trying to "over tweak" the model so to speak. The Flavians simply wanted their oligarchs to read one book, memorise the sequence of events, certain words, names and locations, before reading Wars of the Jews and seeing the parallels, satire, Jesus being the archetype to Titus, Jesus' prophecies being fulfilled by Titus, and the Son of Man who really did COMETH!

Anyway, it's a waste of time trying to explain the maths to people because they just won't get it - for various reasons. It's easier to fool someone than it is to convince them they've been fooled. All you get is straw man debunks, personal attacks towards Atwill, discussion about Christianity away from the origin (which is all that we are really discussing here), talk about Tacitus. If you try and force somebody to use their brain and analyse the patterns, after many defiant responses they will end up giving the most incoherent, non-sensical reply; in other words they have one of those "mad" moments upon reaching the limit of their intelligence. It happened with Richard Carrier, who tries his utmost on command of his "Atheist Celebrities" to stop anyone from seeing a pattern. I simply described to him that "Jesus" gets taken up and scourged, i.e. crucified, said "Woe" 8 times then literally "gave up the ghost". The satire is that Jesus saw himself as a stone that could crush, but gets killed by a stone from a Roman siege engine. And that's just one parallel out of 40+ and one piece of satire out of another 40+ (80+ elements). Carrier then had one of those "mad" moments without even showing him the other 39 parallels, which is forbidden to present simultaneously on his blog. You can get someone to agree that it's stupid to walk in front of a speeding truck, but to get them to see that the gospels are based on Josephus (or vice versa) is beyond most people's comprehension, so they will get literally "stuck" somewhere during the steps in-between and will try to cover up their lack of intelligence in many ways: outright dismissal, judging the credibility of the person presenting the evidence, calling upon authority figures, ridiculing or talking nonsense, or accusing Atwill of parallel mania.

The problem with the Parallelmania theory (or design on the part of the interpreter or person making the comparison) is that, in the case of Caesar's Messiah, the parallels are occurring in sequence: (1-5, say = beginning, quarter-way, halfway, three quarter-way, end)

1. Good news, sent by father
2. loose and bound, divide 3 against 2, cut down fruit trees
3. Human Passover Lamb
4. Woe saying Jesus who gave up the ghost and was crucified
5. Doubt in their Lord's identity

Example of Typology I designed myself:

MOVIE A

16:00 - A Westerner travels to North Korea and is wearing factor 3 sun cream
33:00 - The Westerner takes off a pair of trousers
62:00 - The Westerner walks past a department store and sees luxuries
73:00 - The Westerner is told by the tour guide about the leaders of the country
84:00 - The Westerner travels back to the US

MOVIE B

16:00 - A native visits a capital city and sees 3 giant posters of men
33:00 - The native is told by a police officer to change one item of their clothing
62:00 - The native enters a shop but is told nothing is for sale to anyone but they are only there for show, for sake of the foreign media.
73:00 - The native makes a gibe about one of the men in the posters
84:00 - The native is not allowed to return home and is instead taken to a prison camp

How can you detect that mine is designed and authored by a common source (me) or that I got Movie A from somewhere else and did my own Movie B?

Understanding this, i.e. Patterns, Probability and Typology is all related to Part 1 of the proof that the Flavians invented Christianity. But in Parts 2 and 3 I can show that it's possible to know that the Flavians actually wrote both the gospels and Wars of the Jews or that I did both Movies A and Movies B (I didn't just do one of them). But unless people get part 1 there's no point proceeding..

Vespasian performing the same miracles as Jesus
After thus speaking, He spat on the ground, and then, kneading the dust and spittle into clay, He smeared the clay over the man's eyes and said to him, "Go and wash in the pool of Siloam" --the name means `Sent.' So he went and washed his eyes, and returned able to see.
John 6:6-7

"One of the common people of Alexandria, well known for his blindness, threw himself at the Emperor's knees, and implored him with groans to heal his infirmity. . .He begged Vespasian that he would design to moisten his cheeks and eye-balls with his spittle. Another with a diseased hand, at the counsel of the same God, prayed that the limb might feel the print of a Caesar's foot. At first Vespasian ridiculed and repulsed them. . .And so Vespasian, supposing that all things were possible to his good fortune, and that nothing was any longer past belief, with a joyful countenance, amid the intense expectation of the multitude of bystanders, accomplished what was required."
Tacitus, The Histories, 4.81.

Becoming member of the Religious Club
[Image: club.jpg]

Gilius, thank you so much for contributing all this. To be honest it's a relief and pleasure to find someone else who finds Atwill's theories so fascinating. Judging by the comments on his webpage we're not alone either.

Re
"most of today's cultures wouldn't even understand the satire or dark comedy that's based heavily around humiliation of the Jews."

Disgust towards the Jews was very prevalent in the first and second centuries. And, to a degree, with good reason. They were a brainwashed people. They contributed almost nothing to art, law or medicine. What they were good at was getting down on their knees and worshipping their priests and their God, and fighting with each other and with other people. They regularly caused the government grief. I can understand that Titus and Vespasian would've been thoroughly pissed off with them. I'm repeating myself here...Vespasian introduced a tax on all Jews in the diaspora simply because they were Jewish. I think the gospels were created under the Emperors' direction as propaganda.
The following podcast http://thehistoryofrome.typepad.com/the_...oved.html, describes what a good propagandist Vespasian was.

Re.."The Flavians simply wanted their oligarchs to read one book,"

I assume you're referring to one of the Gospels, ? Mark ?

I'm very much looking forward to you posting parts two and three of your argument.
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