Jesus myth
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13-01-2014, 10:29 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(13-01-2014 05:52 PM)gilius2k14 Wrote:  Thanks Mark!

I think Atwill's theory is mathematically sound, but unfortunately most people are not intelligent/rational enough to understand probability, patterns in sequence, the trees amongst the forest or indeed the bigger picture. However, a lot of people can be very knowledgeable and hold PHDs even, yet their IQ might be somewhat low. Part of this problem is to do with social conditioning, and the same forces that invented Christianity are still at work today based around belief systems and people calling upon authority figures rather than trying to analyse evidence themselves. People are trapped inside various hybrid cultures and have lost the ability to reason, so they have no way of understanding Caesar's Messiah or they may not even care about the truth, but prefer to feed their ego by devaluing others. I think the Flavians knew this, hence there was no real danger of their invention being known other than by a minority. And unless you've studied psychopaths or watched old Korean movies, most of today's cultures wouldn't even understand the satire or dark comedy that's based heavily around humiliation of the Jews. The Flavians used the method of Typology, which I never knew was so powerful. I even created my own typology based on North Korea just to test out the idea. The Flavians were very intellectual, hence they wanted to inform posterity not only about Christianity, but also some additional information about the Sicarii, Maccabees, the real authors of the New Testament, and faith in one's self instead of a divine being, etc. They created editorial spin on who could become a Christian based on the Jewish membership template and requirements before destroying their "membership form", but which fortunately turned up in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Vespasian was said to perform the same miracles as the character Jesus using spittle on his hands to cure blindness.

I think Joe makes the parallel system to be slightly more complex than it really is. My analysis seems to show that the Flavians created initial entry points for all the interactive/intertextual parallels so that they occur in proper sequence without having to try to place them based on past tense, etc. For example, my summary does not include Eleazar because it's separate to the sequence as well as being quite complicated. Joe figured it was an isolated story mainly from John, but I believe I've found out exactly how it fits into the sequence along with Simon and John's condemnation, the woe saying Jesus, crucifixion, and "doubt in the Lord's identity". Mary Magdalene is based on the word "tower", so I think Eleazar has 2 entry points: Martha and Mary's house (gospels) = "Women's Towers" in Josephus, since once the books have been broken down into 40-50 parts everything falls in place without trying to "over tweak" the model so to speak. The Flavians simply wanted their oligarchs to read one book, memorise the sequence of events, certain words, names and locations, before reading Wars of the Jews and seeing the parallels, satire, Jesus being the archetype to Titus, Jesus' prophecies being fulfilled by Titus, and the Son of Man who really did COMETH!

Anyway, it's a waste of time trying to explain the maths to people because they just won't get it - for various reasons. It's easier to fool someone than it is to convince them they've been fooled. All you get is straw man debunks, personal attacks towards Atwill, discussion about Christianity away from the origin (which is all that we are really discussing here), talk about Tacitus. If you try and force somebody to use their brain and analyse the patterns, after many defiant responses they will end up giving the most incoherent, non-sensical reply; in other words they have one of those "mad" moments upon reaching the limit of their intelligence. It happened with Richard Carrier, who tries his utmost on command of his "Atheist Celebrities" to stop anyone from seeing a pattern. I simply described to him that "Jesus" gets taken up and scourged, i.e. crucified, said "Woe" 8 times then literally "gave up the ghost". The satire is that Jesus saw himself as a stone that could crush, but gets killed by a stone from a Roman siege engine. And that's just one parallel out of 40+ and one piece of satire out of another 40+ (80+ elements). Carrier then had one of those "mad" moments without even showing him the other 39 parallels, which is forbidden to present simultaneously on his blog. You can get someone to agree that it's stupid to walk in front of a speeding truck, but to get them to see that the gospels are based on Josephus (or vice versa) is beyond most people's comprehension, so they will get literally "stuck" somewhere during the steps in-between and will try to cover up their lack of intelligence in many ways: outright dismissal, judging the credibility of the person presenting the evidence, calling upon authority figures, ridiculing or talking nonsense, or accusing Atwill of parallel mania.

The problem with the Parallelmania theory (or design on the part of the interpreter or person making the comparison) is that, in the case of Caesar's Messiah, the parallels are occurring in sequence: (1-5, say = beginning, quarter-way, halfway, three quarter-way, end)

1. Good news, sent by father
2. loose and bound, divide 3 against 2, cut down fruit trees
3. Human Passover Lamb
4. Woe saying Jesus who gave up the ghost and was crucified
5. Doubt in their Lord's identity

Example of Typology I designed myself:

MOVIE A

16:00 - A Westerner travels to North Korea and is wearing factor 3 sun cream
33:00 - The Westerner takes off a pair of trousers
62:00 - The Westerner walks past a department store and sees luxuries
73:00 - The Westerner is told by the tour guide about the leaders of the country
84:00 - The Westerner travels back to the US

MOVIE B

16:00 - A native visits a capital city and sees 3 giant posters of men
33:00 - The native is told by a police officer to change one item of their clothing
62:00 - The native enters a shop but is told nothing is for sale to anyone but they are only there for show, for sake of the foreign media.
73:00 - The native makes a gibe about one of the men in the posters
84:00 - The native is not allowed to return home and is instead taken to a prison camp

How can you detect that mine is designed and authored by a common source (me) or that I got Movie A from somewhere else and did my own Movie B?

Understanding this, i.e. Patterns, Probability and Typology is all related to Part 1 of the proof that the Flavians invented Christianity. But in Parts 2 and 3 I can show that it's possible to know that the Flavians actually wrote both the gospels and Wars of the Jews or that I did both Movies A and Movies B (I didn't just do one of them). But unless people get part 1 there's no point proceeding..

Vespasian performing the same miracles as Jesus
After thus speaking, He spat on the ground, and then, kneading the dust and spittle into clay, He smeared the clay over the man's eyes and said to him, "Go and wash in the pool of Siloam" --the name means `Sent.' So he went and washed his eyes, and returned able to see.
John 6:6-7

"One of the common people of Alexandria, well known for his blindness, threw himself at the Emperor's knees, and implored him with groans to heal his infirmity. . .He begged Vespasian that he would design to moisten his cheeks and eye-balls with his spittle. Another with a diseased hand, at the counsel of the same God, prayed that the limb might feel the print of a Caesar's foot. At first Vespasian ridiculed and repulsed them. . .And so Vespasian, supposing that all things were possible to his good fortune, and that nothing was any longer past belief, with a joyful countenance, amid the intense expectation of the multitude of bystanders, accomplished what was required."
Tacitus, The Histories, 4.81.

Becoming member of the Religious Club
[Image: club.jpg]


Okay, all I got from this was.

1 - Numerology is bullshit.

2 - Anybody who disagrees with you is an angry retard.

Not very compelling... Drinking Beverage

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13-01-2014, 10:35 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(13-01-2014 10:29 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(13-01-2014 05:52 PM)gilius2k14 Wrote:  Thanks Mark!

I think Atwill's theory is mathematically sound, but unfortunately most people are not intelligent/rational enough to understand probability, patterns in sequence, the trees amongst the forest or indeed the bigger picture. However, a lot of people can be very knowledgeable and hold PHDs even, yet their IQ might be somewhat low. Part of this problem is to do with social conditioning, and the same forces that invented Christianity are still at work today based around belief systems and people calling upon authority figures rather than trying to analyse evidence themselves. People are trapped inside various hybrid cultures and have lost the ability to reason, so they have no way of understanding Caesar's Messiah or they may not even care about the truth, but prefer to feed their ego by devaluing others. I think the Flavians knew this, hence there was no real danger of their invention being known other than by a minority. And unless you've studied psychopaths or watched old Korean movies, most of today's cultures wouldn't even understand the satire or dark comedy that's based heavily around humiliation of the Jews. The Flavians used the method of Typology, which I never knew was so powerful. I even created my own typology based on North Korea just to test out the idea. The Flavians were very intellectual, hence they wanted to inform posterity not only about Christianity, but also some additional information about the Sicarii, Maccabees, the real authors of the New Testament, and faith in one's self instead of a divine being, etc. They created editorial spin on who could become a Christian based on the Jewish membership template and requirements before destroying their "membership form", but which fortunately turned up in the Dead Sea Scrolls. Vespasian was said to perform the same miracles as the character Jesus using spittle on his hands to cure blindness.

I think Joe makes the parallel system to be slightly more complex than it really is. My analysis seems to show that the Flavians created initial entry points for all the interactive/intertextual parallels so that they occur in proper sequence without having to try to place them based on past tense, etc. For example, my summary does not include Eleazar because it's separate to the sequence as well as being quite complicated. Joe figured it was an isolated story mainly from John, but I believe I've found out exactly how it fits into the sequence along with Simon and John's condemnation, the woe saying Jesus, crucifixion, and "doubt in the Lord's identity". Mary Magdalene is based on the word "tower", so I think Eleazar has 2 entry points: Martha and Mary's house (gospels) = "Women's Towers" in Josephus, since once the books have been broken down into 40-50 parts everything falls in place without trying to "over tweak" the model so to speak. The Flavians simply wanted their oligarchs to read one book, memorise the sequence of events, certain words, names and locations, before reading Wars of the Jews and seeing the parallels, satire, Jesus being the archetype to Titus, Jesus' prophecies being fulfilled by Titus, and the Son of Man who really did COMETH!

Anyway, it's a waste of time trying to explain the maths to people because they just won't get it - for various reasons. It's easier to fool someone than it is to convince them they've been fooled. All you get is straw man debunks, personal attacks towards Atwill, discussion about Christianity away from the origin (which is all that we are really discussing here), talk about Tacitus. If you try and force somebody to use their brain and analyse the patterns, after many defiant responses they will end up giving the most incoherent, non-sensical reply; in other words they have one of those "mad" moments upon reaching the limit of their intelligence. It happened with Richard Carrier, who tries his utmost on command of his "Atheist Celebrities" to stop anyone from seeing a pattern. I simply described to him that "Jesus" gets taken up and scourged, i.e. crucified, said "Woe" 8 times then literally "gave up the ghost". The satire is that Jesus saw himself as a stone that could crush, but gets killed by a stone from a Roman siege engine. And that's just one parallel out of 40+ and one piece of satire out of another 40+ (80+ elements). Carrier then had one of those "mad" moments without even showing him the other 39 parallels, which is forbidden to present simultaneously on his blog. You can get someone to agree that it's stupid to walk in front of a speeding truck, but to get them to see that the gospels are based on Josephus (or vice versa) is beyond most people's comprehension, so they will get literally "stuck" somewhere during the steps in-between and will try to cover up their lack of intelligence in many ways: outright dismissal, judging the credibility of the person presenting the evidence, calling upon authority figures, ridiculing or talking nonsense, or accusing Atwill of parallel mania.

The problem with the Parallelmania theory (or design on the part of the interpreter or person making the comparison) is that, in the case of Caesar's Messiah, the parallels are occurring in sequence: (1-5, say = beginning, quarter-way, halfway, three quarter-way, end)

1. Good news, sent by father
2. loose and bound, divide 3 against 2, cut down fruit trees
3. Human Passover Lamb
4. Woe saying Jesus who gave up the ghost and was crucified
5. Doubt in their Lord's identity

Example of Typology I designed myself:

MOVIE A

16:00 - A Westerner travels to North Korea and is wearing factor 3 sun cream
33:00 - The Westerner takes off a pair of trousers
62:00 - The Westerner walks past a department store and sees luxuries
73:00 - The Westerner is told by the tour guide about the leaders of the country
84:00 - The Westerner travels back to the US

MOVIE B

16:00 - A native visits a capital city and sees 3 giant posters of men
33:00 - The native is told by a police officer to change one item of their clothing
62:00 - The native enters a shop but is told nothing is for sale to anyone but they are only there for show, for sake of the foreign media.
73:00 - The native makes a gibe about one of the men in the posters
84:00 - The native is not allowed to return home and is instead taken to a prison camp

How can you detect that mine is designed and authored by a common source (me) or that I got Movie A from somewhere else and did my own Movie B?

Understanding this, i.e. Patterns, Probability and Typology is all related to Part 1 of the proof that the Flavians invented Christianity. But in Parts 2 and 3 I can show that it's possible to know that the Flavians actually wrote both the gospels and Wars of the Jews or that I did both Movies A and Movies B (I didn't just do one of them). But unless people get part 1 there's no point proceeding..

Vespasian performing the same miracles as Jesus
After thus speaking, He spat on the ground, and then, kneading the dust and spittle into clay, He smeared the clay over the man's eyes and said to him, "Go and wash in the pool of Siloam" --the name means `Sent.' So he went and washed his eyes, and returned able to see.
John 6:6-7

"One of the common people of Alexandria, well known for his blindness, threw himself at the Emperor's knees, and implored him with groans to heal his infirmity. . .He begged Vespasian that he would design to moisten his cheeks and eye-balls with his spittle. Another with a diseased hand, at the counsel of the same God, prayed that the limb might feel the print of a Caesar's foot. At first Vespasian ridiculed and repulsed them. . .And so Vespasian, supposing that all things were possible to his good fortune, and that nothing was any longer past belief, with a joyful countenance, amid the intense expectation of the multitude of bystanders, accomplished what was required."
Tacitus, The Histories, 4.81.

Becoming member of the Religious Club
[Image: club.jpg]


Okay, all I got from this was.

1 - Numerology is bullshit.

2 - Anybody who disagrees with you is an angry retard.

Not very compelling... Drinking Beverage

#2 -- you forgot: "not intelligent/rational enough to understand..."


The Courtier's Reply, of course....

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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14-01-2014, 01:24 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(13-01-2014 07:00 AM)gilius2k14 Wrote:  It's quite easy for the "thinking atheist" to prove Atwill's theory based on the evidence he presents, but you first need to at least agree that one book is based upon another (proof part 1). You then need to be able to understand the satire (proof part 2). It can then be proven that both books were authored by the same source (proof part 3): Flavians, who, in the process, invented Jesus and Christianity.

PARALLELS - VERBATIM / NEAR-VERBATIM
“good news” euaggelion in Greek (Luke 4:43 + Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 503)
boats vs. vessels + catch men vs. Romans caught them (Luke 5:1-10 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 520-527)
Sabbath + “right hand” vs. Seventh day + “right hands” (Luke 6:1-11 vs. WOTJ 4, 2, 92-104)
herd ran violently vs. wild beasts rushed + “into the” lake vs. “into the” current (Luke 8:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 8, 425, 434)
loose + bound (Luke 9:18 substituted by Matt. 16:19 + WOTJ 4, 10, 628-629)
the crowds were increasing vs. The Jews became still more and more in number (Luke 11:29 vs. WOTJ 5, 2, 78)
divided .. three .. two (Luke 12:52 + WOTJ 5, 3, 105)
“Cut down” fruit trees (Luke 13:7-9 + WOTJ 5, 3, 107)
“build a tower” (Luke 14:28-30 + WOTJ 5, 6, 258-260)
conditions “of peace” vs. terms “of peace” (Luke 14:32 vs. WOTJ 5, 6, 261)
stones “cry out” (Luke 19:40 + WOTJ 5, 6, 272)
build a wall around the Jews (Luke 19:43-44 + WOTJ 5, 12, 499)
sacrifice cease vs. sacrifice failed (Luke 21:10-11, 20 linked to Dan. 9:27 vs. WOTJ 6, 2, 94)
temple vs. HOLY HOUSE + signs + not one stone left vs. DESTRUCTION (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs./+ WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
(Jesus): woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + “give up the ghost” (was also crucified and scourged) (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
in Christ’s name vs. God commanded them + false prophets + deceived many vs. imposed on the people (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
famine + pestilences vs. mouth almost closed + earthquakes vs. quaking (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
thief vs. robbers + houses vs. into the city (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
east + west + “four winds” + “bridegrooms and the brides” (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 and Matt 25:1 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
nursing babies vs. child sucking at breast (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 6,3,203)
Zach: murdered between the temple and the altar vs. in the middle of the temple, and slew him (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343)
two + died + crucified + (one survives) “taken down” (by Joseph)(Luke 23:50-53 linked to Luke 23:32-33 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to Life of Flavius Josephus 75)
John: evil vs. wicked + condemned (but lives in) prison + Iscariot vs. Sicarii +
Simon: cutting himself with stones vs. stone-cutters + condemned + death vs. slain (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)

PARALLELS - NAMES AND LOCATIONS
“Lake of Gennesaret” (Luke 5:1-10 + Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 463)
Jesus and his apostles vs. Jesus and his party (Luke 5:1-10 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 467)
Chorazin produces the Coracin fish (Luke 5:10 linked to Matt 11:21 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 520-527)
John (Luke 7:33 + Wars of the Jews 4, 7, 389)
Gadara (Luke 8:26-30 + WOTJ 4, 7, 413)
Mary (Luke 22:19 linked to Luke 2:34 + WOTJ 6, 3, 201-209)
Jesus (Luke 23:46 + WOTJ 6, 5, 298-315)
Zechariah, son of Berechiah vs. Zacharias the son of Baruch (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343)
Joseph of Arimathea vs. Josephus bar Matthias (Luke 23:50-53 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to Life of Flavius Josephus 75)
John (disciple whom Jesus loved) + Simon (Peter) (Luke 24:16, 37 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 7, 10, 418)
Simon bar Jonas vs. Simon bar Gioras

PARALLELS - CONCEPTUAL
Son sent by father (Luke 4:42-43 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 446)
Taking the lead + reassurance (Luke 5:1-10 linked to Matt. 4:19 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 483-484)
fish vs. attempted to swim + began to sink vs. drowning (Luke 5:1-10 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 520-527)
demon vs. tyrannize and wickedest (Luke 7:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 7, 389 linked to WOTJ 7, 6, 185)
Legion vs. too small for an army, and too many for a gang of thieves (WOTJ 4, 7, 408)
demons entering swine vs. running together to a certain village and arming many young men, i.e. one group infecting another (Luke 8:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 8, 420-421)
On to Jerusalem - the messengers are sent ahead (Luke 9:52 vs. WOTJ 5, 1, 40)
Human Passover lamb (Luke 22:19 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6, 3, 201-209 linked to other passages)
houses on fire - unable to enter nor retrieve cloths (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
Caesar and the Roman army coming down and killing many Jews (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 and Dan 7:13 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
Dead bodies underground with a foul smell (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)
Martyrs death into a “proper place” following Jesus’ death (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)
Doubt in their Lord’s identity (Luke 24:16, 37 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 7, 10, 418)

Code:
Luke 4:42-43                good news (euaggelion) .. God .. I have been sent (Jesus)      
                            Sent away his son Titus ..                     WOTJ 3,9,446 + 3,10,503
                            good news (euaggelion)
Luke 5:1-10                 Lake of Gennesaret .. He (Jesus) .. Simon .. fish ..
                            boats .. began to sink .. Simon Peter .. Do not be afraid .. Catch men
Matt 4:19                   Follow Me .. fishers of men
     Matt 11:21             Chorazin (Galilean fishing village/peoples)                  
                            lake of Gennesaret .. Jesus and his party..    WOTJ 3,10,463-484, 520-527
                            produces the Coracin fish ..
                            vessels .. Romans caught them ..
                            drowning .. attempted to swim .. I shall go into danger first ..
                            Do not you therefore desert me
Luke 6:1-11                 Sabbath .. right hand
                            Seventh day .. right hands                     WOTJ 4,2,92-104
Luke 7:33, 8:26-30          John .. has a demon .. Gadarenes .. Legion
                            John .. beginning to tyrannize .. wickedest .. WOTJ 4,7,389,408,413
                            too small for an army, and too many for a gang of thieves .. Gadara
                            John ... filled the entire countryside  WOTJ 7,8,263
                            with ten thousand instances of wickedness  
                            Demons ... are no other than            WOTJ 7,6,185
                            the spirits of the wicked
Luke 8:33                   demons went out of the man and entered the swine ..
                            herd ran violently .. into the lake
                            they ran together to a certain village ..      WOTJ 4,8,420-421,425,434
                            great multitude of young men, arming them ..
                            wild beasts rushed .. into the current
Luke 9:18(Matt 16:19), 9:52 bound .. loosed .. He steadfastly set His face
                            to go to Jerusalem, and sent messengers before
                            loose .. bound .. ordered the rest to meet him WOTJ 4,10,628-629 + 5,1,40
                            at Jerusalem, marched out
Luke 11:29, 12:52, 13:7-9   the crowds were increasing .. divided .. three .. two ..
                            tree .. fruit .. cut it down
                            The Jews became still more and more in number  WOTJ 5,2,78 + 5,3,105,107
                            .. divided .. three .. two .. cut down .. fruit trees
Luke 14:28-32, 19:40        intending to build a tower .. conditions of peace .. stones .. cry out
                            might make an impression upon the walls        WOTJ 5,6,258-261,272
                            .. build .. tower .. terms of peace .. stone .. cried out
Luke 19:43-44               build an embankment around you ..
                            close you in .. and your children
                            build a wall round about the whole city ..     WOTJ 5,12,499
                            prevent the Jews from coming out
Luke 21:10-11, 20           kingdom against kingdom .. earthquakes ..
                            famines .. pestilences .. desolation
     Matt. 24:7, 15         kingdom against kingdom .. famines .. pestilences
                            .. earthquakes .. abomination of desolation
     Dan. 9:27              sacrifice .. cease .. abominations .. desolate
                            sacrifice .. failed                            WOTJ 6, 2, 94
Luke 22:19                  bread .. gave .. this is my body
     Mark 14:22             Jesus took bread .. eat .. this is my body
     John 19:29-33          hyssop .. Jesus .. dead .. they did not break his legs
     Luke 2:34-35           Mary .. his Mother .. Child .. pierce through your own soul
     Exodus 12:9, 12:21-22  roasted .. with its legs .. Passover lamb .. hyssop
                            Mary .. Hyssop .. famine .. pierced            WOTJ 6,3,201-209
                            through her very bowels .. slew her son .. roasted him ..
                            eat .. half of him .. saved a .. portion (splanchon)
                            siege .. Jerusalem ..                   WOTJ 6,9,420-421
                            feast of unleavened bread .. famine
                            Jews .. besieged .. famine                     Severus, Sacred History 2.30
                            .. eating .. human bodies
Luke 23:46                  Jesus .. gave up the ghost
     Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44  Jesus spoke .. woe .. Woe .. Woe .. Woe ..
                            Woe .. Woe .. Woe .. Woe

                            Zechariah, son of Berechiah ..
                            murdered between the temple and the altar

                            the temple .. Jesus said ..  
                            not one stone shall be left here upon another

                            sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?
                            will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many

                            will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes

                            many false prophets will rise up and deceive many

                            Let him .. on the housetop not .. take anything out of his house
                            .. not go back to get his clothes.

                            woe to those who are pregnant .. nursing babies .. lightning comes ..
                            east .. west .. coming of the Son of Man

                            wherever the carcass is .. eagles will be gathered together.
                            Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven ..
                            will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet .. four winds

                            the thief would come .. house to be broken into

     Matt 25:1              bridegroom and the bride.
     Dan 7:13               Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven!        
                            THE HOLY HOUSE ..                              WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315  
                            THE SIGNS THAT PRECEDED THIS DESTRUCTION
                            many ..  worn away by the famine .. mouths almost closed
                            multitude of the robbers .. into the city
                            round about the holy house, burnt all those places ..
                            money .. garments .. precious goods reposited
                            God commanded them .. great number of false prophets ..
                            impose on the people
                            chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor
                            were seen running about among the clouds
                            felt a quaking
                            Jesus .. to cry aloud
                            east .. west .. four winds
                            .. bridegrooms and the brides
                            took up the man .. number of severe stripes ..
                            Woe, woe .. uttered .. Woe, woe .. Woe, woe ..
                            Woe, woe.. gave up the ghost
                            Zacharias the son of Baruch ..          WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343  
                            in the middle of the temple, and slew him
                            child sucking at her breast             WOTJ 6,3,203
Luke 23:50-53               Joseph .. from Arimathea .. body of Jesus .. took it down
     Luke 23:32-33          two .. death .. crucified
                            crucified .. taken down (by             Life of Flavius Josephus 75
                            Josephus bar Matthias) .. two died
Luke 23:56, 24:12           prepared spices and fragrant oils .. Peter ran to the tomb .. stooping down

     Mark 5:1-5             man with an unclean spirit .. tombs .. cutting himself with stones

     Mark 8:28-29           two demon-possessed men .. tombs

     John 6:70-71           one is a devil .. Simon the Iscariot

     John 21:18-24          another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go

                            kind of death .. to glorify God .. Follow me .. Peter

                            disciple whom Jesus loved .. it is my will that he remains

     Luke 22:31-31          Peter .. ready to go both to prison and to death      

     Matt 16:22-25          Peter .. Satan .. Jesus told his diciples ..
                            take up his cross and follow me

     Luke 23:26             Simon .. cross, for him to carry it behind Jesus

     Gal 2:11               Cephas (Simon) .. condemned

     John 5:26-29           all who are in the graves ..

                            evil .. resurrection of condemnation

                            search .. under ground ..                      WOTJ 6,9,429-434
                            ill savor of the dead bodies .. Simon .. slain ..

                            John condemned to perpetual imprisonment

                            John .. Sicarii .. wickedness           WOTJ 7,8,263

                            Simon .. among .. stone-cutters         WOTJ 7,2,26

                            Simon drawn into a proper place         WOTJ 7,5,154
Luke 24:16, 37              But their eyes were kept from recognising him ..
                            supposed they had seen a spirit
     Matt. 28:17            When they saw Him, they worshiped Him, but some doubted
     Mark 16:12             he appeared in another form
     John 21:4              the disciples did not know that it was Jesus
                            they could not get any one of them ..          WOTJ 7,10,418
                            to confess, that Caesar was their lord

Do you get part 1? Colour-coded here:
http://www.caesarsmessiahproven.com/summary.htm



http://tomverenna.wordpress.com/2012/09/...ent-jesus/


**UPDATE 10-9-13**

Since this “documentary” first appeared, it seems that Mr. Atwill is again trying to profit off the ignorance of others. Now, self-styled as an ‘American Biblical scholar”, Mr. Atwill is peddling his book of lies and misleading theories to those in the UK. This nonsense does not deserve another post; but I will update this one because it can’t go along unopposed.

First, and let me be clear, nothing Joe Atwill has written is ‘conclusive’. In order for it to be conclusive, it would have to surmount all arguments against it. Unfortunately for him, he fails to grasp even basic knowledge about the subject. For example, he makes the rather bizarre claim that:

“In fact he [Jesus - ed.] may be the only fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. Once those sources are all laid bare, there’s simply nothing left.”

Yet this is simply false. The Hebrew Bible is full of fictional literary characters whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. His hyperbole is bizarre. But even so, is Atwill seriously suggesting that fictional stories cannot be written about historical people or events? Wonder Woman is a highly fictionalized and heroicized literary figure inspired by an actual person, the creator’s wife, Elizabeth Marston. Wonder Woman meets Atwill’s classification as a “fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources.”

So it might be argued that maybe he was referring to ancient literature, but even then he is ignorant of basic figures that anyone with a minutiae of Classical education can speak upon. In ancient literature, the figure and legendary king of Sparta, Lycurgus, is entirely mythicized in literature yet may have been a real person (scholarship is split on this). The mythological tale of Gilgamesh, who we have no actual historical information on, is considered to be a historical figure and ancient king by most leading Sumerologists and yet his entire life story is one of our earliest extant written sources and one of our earliest written myths period. The biographies of Plutarch are propagandist fantasies of his about the lives of historical people like Alexander the Great (mixed in with purely fictional figures like Romulus).

This should be enough to make my point; Atwill makes claims that cannot be supported when those with some basic knowledge of the subject explore the claims further. This is a serious flaw in Atwill’s work. He makes claims but doesn’t seem to realize how ridiculous they actually are; it is that scholars find his work “outlandish”. It is just plain wrong. I mean it is still crazy talk, but it is more that his whole premise is wrong.

For example, like all sensationalist crap-dealers, Mr, Atwill claims to have discovered the secret, super-dooper, hidden code in the text. Amazing! A self-proclaimed “Biblical scholar”, with no formal training in the material, has used his magic decoder ring and stumbled upon a code! How clever of him. He states:

Atwill’s most intriguing discovery came to him while he was studying “Wars of the Jews” by Josephus [the only surviving first-person historical account of first-century Judea] alongside the New Testament. “I started to notice a sequence of parallels between the two texts,” he recounts. “Although it’s been recognised by Christian scholars for centuries that the prophesies of Jesus appear to be fulfilled by what Josephus wrote about in the First Jewish-Roman war, I was seeing dozens more. What seems to have eluded many scholars is that the sequence of events and locations of Jesus ministry are more or less the same as the sequence of events and locations of the military campaign of [Emperor] Titus Flavius as described by Josephus. This is clear evidence of a deliberately constructed pattern. The biography of Jesus is actually constructed, tip to stern, on prior stories, but especially on the biography of a Roman Caesar.”

First, and let me be clear, are there striking similarities between Josephus and the Gospel of Luke? Yes, there are. Steven Mason, a real scholar, has published an entire volume on the subject called Josephus and the New Testament. Richard Carrier has also written on the subject of the parallels between Josephus and Luke-Acts. Joel Watts, an actual student of Biblical Studies who has done graduate work in the field (unlike Mr. Atwill), has written an academically-published book on some interesting mimetic elements between Mark and Josephus.

The difference between what these scholars have written and what Mr. Atwill have written is threefold: (a) all of them have academic training in Greek, (b) all of them published through an academic press (Carrier is the exception, but he has published academically and is qualified on the subject), © None of them make the illogical leap that similarities between Josephus (a Jew) and the Gospels (written by Jewish authors) mean that the Romans did it. In fact it is the same misguided leap that some evangelicals make about God. “We don’t know, ergo ‘God did it’.” Instead, all of these scholars agree that the most rational reason for these similarities is that the Gospel authors had copies of Josephus, or Josephus had copies of the Gospels. This sort of interplay of texts is not new in the ancient world.

Second, Notwithstanding this damning evidence against him, Atwill’s premise is quite narrowed and simplistic, demonstrating a critical lack of understanding of the cultural dynamics of Judea in the first century.

There exist over 30 Jewish sects that we know of from the first century, and have some basic understanding of their belief structures. There are some dozens more we just know by name. On top of that, we have to conclude there are perhaps dozens, if not hundreds, more Jewish sects of which we simply have no record. What is so interesting is how incredibly different each sect is from each other.

Despite Atwill’s unlearned claim that the Jewish people were expecting a ‘Warrior messiah’, in truth there is no universal version of a messiah. Even among the same sect, over time, the concept of their messiah would change. In the Dead Sea Scrolls, which Mr. Atwill seems to think he knows so well, the language of the messiah and his purpose changes (in fact at one point, we see two distinct messiahs at once–one a priestly messiah and another a kingly messiah). Some sects did not even expect a messiah at all. Any of the numerous works on messianic expectations published in the last two decades utterly annihilates any claim that Atwill is making about some uniformity in Jewish thought and ritual.

Even logically, his analysis is flawed. If this tactic was used against the Jews, why didn’t the Romans use it against an even greater threat: the Gauls?! The Jewish people were never as serious a threat to the Empire as much as the Gauls were–who sacked Rome twice and destroyed Legions. Atwill never seems to consider how basically incompetent his thesis is in this regard. If the Romans had such success against the Jews using this “psychological warfare” (anachronism alert!! Danger! Danger!), why don’t we see this happening against all of their enemies? It is just so beyond absurd. It really is.

Here is the thing; it may be that Mr. Atwill is completely clueless about this. Maybe he isn’t just trying to scam everyone and sell a bunch of books to a group of gullible people. Maybe he legitimately hasn’t read anything relevant on this subject or any recent scholarship on it.

But that is troubling–would you want to read a science book written by a layperson who hasn’t read a single relevant scientific study? Would you pick up a book on engineering written by someone with a background in computer science, and trust that book enough to build a house based upon its designs? I hope not. I sincerely hope that no one would agree to trust either of these books.

This is the issue with Mr. Atwill. He may sincerely believe he has discovered the secret code off a cereal box with his 3-D glasses he found inside; that doesn’t make him an expert in the subject, it doesn’t make him knowledgeable enough to give lectures on it. It certainly does not make him credible.

Mr. Atwill is just like all the other amateur-Scholar-wannabes who refuse to put in the time and effort to earn a degree in the field, who want to advance their pet theories to sell books and dupe you over. He relies on popular media and the ignorance of the layperson to score points rather than publishing in a credible academic journal or publishing academically. He knows he can’t do that, because he has no clue how academics work, how they think, or what they actually argue on the subject. He might as well claim that Jesus lived on Atlantis, which came from Mars. That theory is about as ridiculous as the notion that Rome invented Jesus.

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14-01-2014, 02:24 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(14-01-2014 01:24 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(13-01-2014 07:00 AM)gilius2k14 Wrote:  It's quite easy for the "thinking atheist" to prove Atwill's theory based on the evidence he presents, but you first need to at least agree that one book is based upon another (proof part 1). You then need to be able to understand the satire (proof part 2). It can then be proven that both books were authored by the same source (proof part 3): Flavians, who, in the process, invented Jesus and Christianity.

PARALLELS - VERBATIM / NEAR-VERBATIM
“good news” euaggelion in Greek (Luke 4:43 + Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 503)
boats vs. vessels + catch men vs. Romans caught them (Luke 5:1-10 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 520-527)
Sabbath + “right hand” vs. Seventh day + “right hands” (Luke 6:1-11 vs. WOTJ 4, 2, 92-104)
herd ran violently vs. wild beasts rushed + “into the” lake vs. “into the” current (Luke 8:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 8, 425, 434)
loose + bound (Luke 9:18 substituted by Matt. 16:19 + WOTJ 4, 10, 628-629)
the crowds were increasing vs. The Jews became still more and more in number (Luke 11:29 vs. WOTJ 5, 2, 78)
divided .. three .. two (Luke 12:52 + WOTJ 5, 3, 105)
“Cut down” fruit trees (Luke 13:7-9 + WOTJ 5, 3, 107)
“build a tower” (Luke 14:28-30 + WOTJ 5, 6, 258-260)
conditions “of peace” vs. terms “of peace” (Luke 14:32 vs. WOTJ 5, 6, 261)
stones “cry out” (Luke 19:40 + WOTJ 5, 6, 272)
build a wall around the Jews (Luke 19:43-44 + WOTJ 5, 12, 499)
sacrifice cease vs. sacrifice failed (Luke 21:10-11, 20 linked to Dan. 9:27 vs. WOTJ 6, 2, 94)
temple vs. HOLY HOUSE + signs + not one stone left vs. DESTRUCTION (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs./+ WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
(Jesus): woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + “give up the ghost” (was also crucified and scourged) (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
in Christ’s name vs. God commanded them + false prophets + deceived many vs. imposed on the people (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
famine + pestilences vs. mouth almost closed + earthquakes vs. quaking (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
thief vs. robbers + houses vs. into the city (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
east + west + “four winds” + “bridegrooms and the brides” (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 and Matt 25:1 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
nursing babies vs. child sucking at breast (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 6,3,203)
Zach: murdered between the temple and the altar vs. in the middle of the temple, and slew him (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343)
two + died + crucified + (one survives) “taken down” (by Joseph)(Luke 23:50-53 linked to Luke 23:32-33 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to Life of Flavius Josephus 75)
John: evil vs. wicked + condemned (but lives in) prison + Iscariot vs. Sicarii +
Simon: cutting himself with stones vs. stone-cutters + condemned + death vs. slain (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)

PARALLELS - NAMES AND LOCATIONS
“Lake of Gennesaret” (Luke 5:1-10 + Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 463)
Jesus and his apostles vs. Jesus and his party (Luke 5:1-10 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 467)
Chorazin produces the Coracin fish (Luke 5:10 linked to Matt 11:21 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 520-527)
John (Luke 7:33 + Wars of the Jews 4, 7, 389)
Gadara (Luke 8:26-30 + WOTJ 4, 7, 413)
Mary (Luke 22:19 linked to Luke 2:34 + WOTJ 6, 3, 201-209)
Jesus (Luke 23:46 + WOTJ 6, 5, 298-315)
Zechariah, son of Berechiah vs. Zacharias the son of Baruch (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343)
Joseph of Arimathea vs. Josephus bar Matthias (Luke 23:50-53 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to Life of Flavius Josephus 75)
John (disciple whom Jesus loved) + Simon (Peter) (Luke 24:16, 37 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 7, 10, 418)
Simon bar Jonas vs. Simon bar Gioras

PARALLELS - CONCEPTUAL
Son sent by father (Luke 4:42-43 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 446)
Taking the lead + reassurance (Luke 5:1-10 linked to Matt. 4:19 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 483-484)
fish vs. attempted to swim + began to sink vs. drowning (Luke 5:1-10 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 520-527)
demon vs. tyrannize and wickedest (Luke 7:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 7, 389 linked to WOTJ 7, 6, 185)
Legion vs. too small for an army, and too many for a gang of thieves (WOTJ 4, 7, 408)
demons entering swine vs. running together to a certain village and arming many young men, i.e. one group infecting another (Luke 8:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 8, 420-421)
On to Jerusalem - the messengers are sent ahead (Luke 9:52 vs. WOTJ 5, 1, 40)
Human Passover lamb (Luke 22:19 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6, 3, 201-209 linked to other passages)
houses on fire - unable to enter nor retrieve cloths (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
Caesar and the Roman army coming down and killing many Jews (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 and Dan 7:13 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
Dead bodies underground with a foul smell (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)
Martyrs death into a “proper place” following Jesus’ death (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)
Doubt in their Lord’s identity (Luke 24:16, 37 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 7, 10, 418)

Code:
Luke 4:42-43                good news (euaggelion) .. God .. I have been sent (Jesus)      
                            Sent away his son Titus ..                     WOTJ 3,9,446 + 3,10,503
                            good news (euaggelion)
Luke 5:1-10                 Lake of Gennesaret .. He (Jesus) .. Simon .. fish ..
                            boats .. began to sink .. Simon Peter .. Do not be afraid .. Catch men
Matt 4:19                   Follow Me .. fishers of men
     Matt 11:21             Chorazin (Galilean fishing village/peoples)                  
                            lake of Gennesaret .. Jesus and his party..    WOTJ 3,10,463-484, 520-527
                            produces the Coracin fish ..
                            vessels .. Romans caught them ..
                            drowning .. attempted to swim .. I shall go into danger first ..
                            Do not you therefore desert me
Luke 6:1-11                 Sabbath .. right hand
                            Seventh day .. right hands                     WOTJ 4,2,92-104
Luke 7:33, 8:26-30          John .. has a demon .. Gadarenes .. Legion
                            John .. beginning to tyrannize .. wickedest .. WOTJ 4,7,389,408,413
                            too small for an army, and too many for a gang of thieves .. Gadara
                            John ... filled the entire countryside  WOTJ 7,8,263
                            with ten thousand instances of wickedness  
                            Demons ... are no other than            WOTJ 7,6,185
                            the spirits of the wicked
Luke 8:33                   demons went out of the man and entered the swine ..
                            herd ran violently .. into the lake
                            they ran together to a certain village ..      WOTJ 4,8,420-421,425,434
                            great multitude of young men, arming them ..
                            wild beasts rushed .. into the current
Luke 9:18(Matt 16:19), 9:52 bound .. loosed .. He steadfastly set His face
                            to go to Jerusalem, and sent messengers before
                            loose .. bound .. ordered the rest to meet him WOTJ 4,10,628-629 + 5,1,40
                            at Jerusalem, marched out
Luke 11:29, 12:52, 13:7-9   the crowds were increasing .. divided .. three .. two ..
                            tree .. fruit .. cut it down
                            The Jews became still more and more in number  WOTJ 5,2,78 + 5,3,105,107
                            .. divided .. three .. two .. cut down .. fruit trees
Luke 14:28-32, 19:40        intending to build a tower .. conditions of peace .. stones .. cry out
                            might make an impression upon the walls        WOTJ 5,6,258-261,272
                            .. build .. tower .. terms of peace .. stone .. cried out
Luke 19:43-44               build an embankment around you ..
                            close you in .. and your children
                            build a wall round about the whole city ..     WOTJ 5,12,499
                            prevent the Jews from coming out
Luke 21:10-11, 20           kingdom against kingdom .. earthquakes ..
                            famines .. pestilences .. desolation
     Matt. 24:7, 15         kingdom against kingdom .. famines .. pestilences
                            .. earthquakes .. abomination of desolation
     Dan. 9:27              sacrifice .. cease .. abominations .. desolate
                            sacrifice .. failed                            WOTJ 6, 2, 94
Luke 22:19                  bread .. gave .. this is my body
     Mark 14:22             Jesus took bread .. eat .. this is my body
     John 19:29-33          hyssop .. Jesus .. dead .. they did not break his legs
     Luke 2:34-35           Mary .. his Mother .. Child .. pierce through your own soul
     Exodus 12:9, 12:21-22  roasted .. with its legs .. Passover lamb .. hyssop
                            Mary .. Hyssop .. famine .. pierced            WOTJ 6,3,201-209
                            through her very bowels .. slew her son .. roasted him ..
                            eat .. half of him .. saved a .. portion (splanchon)
                            siege .. Jerusalem ..                   WOTJ 6,9,420-421
                            feast of unleavened bread .. famine
                            Jews .. besieged .. famine                     Severus, Sacred History 2.30
                            .. eating .. human bodies
Luke 23:46                  Jesus .. gave up the ghost
     Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44  Jesus spoke .. woe .. Woe .. Woe .. Woe ..
                            Woe .. Woe .. Woe .. Woe

                            Zechariah, son of Berechiah ..
                            murdered between the temple and the altar

                            the temple .. Jesus said ..  
                            not one stone shall be left here upon another

                            sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?
                            will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many

                            will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes

                            many false prophets will rise up and deceive many

                            Let him .. on the housetop not .. take anything out of his house
                            .. not go back to get his clothes.

                            woe to those who are pregnant .. nursing babies .. lightning comes ..
                            east .. west .. coming of the Son of Man

                            wherever the carcass is .. eagles will be gathered together.
                            Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven ..
                            will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet .. four winds

                            the thief would come .. house to be broken into

     Matt 25:1              bridegroom and the bride.
     Dan 7:13               Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven!        
                            THE HOLY HOUSE ..                              WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315  
                            THE SIGNS THAT PRECEDED THIS DESTRUCTION
                            many ..  worn away by the famine .. mouths almost closed
                            multitude of the robbers .. into the city
                            round about the holy house, burnt all those places ..
                            money .. garments .. precious goods reposited
                            God commanded them .. great number of false prophets ..
                            impose on the people
                            chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor
                            were seen running about among the clouds
                            felt a quaking
                            Jesus .. to cry aloud
                            east .. west .. four winds
                            .. bridegrooms and the brides
                            took up the man .. number of severe stripes ..
                            Woe, woe .. uttered .. Woe, woe .. Woe, woe ..
                            Woe, woe.. gave up the ghost
                            Zacharias the son of Baruch ..          WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343  
                            in the middle of the temple, and slew him
                            child sucking at her breast             WOTJ 6,3,203
Luke 23:50-53               Joseph .. from Arimathea .. body of Jesus .. took it down
     Luke 23:32-33          two .. death .. crucified
                            crucified .. taken down (by             Life of Flavius Josephus 75
                            Josephus bar Matthias) .. two died
Luke 23:56, 24:12           prepared spices and fragrant oils .. Peter ran to the tomb .. stooping down

     Mark 5:1-5             man with an unclean spirit .. tombs .. cutting himself with stones

     Mark 8:28-29           two demon-possessed men .. tombs

     John 6:70-71           one is a devil .. Simon the Iscariot

     John 21:18-24          another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go

                            kind of death .. to glorify God .. Follow me .. Peter

                            disciple whom Jesus loved .. it is my will that he remains

     Luke 22:31-31          Peter .. ready to go both to prison and to death      

     Matt 16:22-25          Peter .. Satan .. Jesus told his diciples ..
                            take up his cross and follow me

     Luke 23:26             Simon .. cross, for him to carry it behind Jesus

     Gal 2:11               Cephas (Simon) .. condemned

     John 5:26-29           all who are in the graves ..

                            evil .. resurrection of condemnation

                            search .. under ground ..                      WOTJ 6,9,429-434
                            ill savor of the dead bodies .. Simon .. slain ..

                            John condemned to perpetual imprisonment

                            John .. Sicarii .. wickedness           WOTJ 7,8,263

                            Simon .. among .. stone-cutters         WOTJ 7,2,26

                            Simon drawn into a proper place         WOTJ 7,5,154
Luke 24:16, 37              But their eyes were kept from recognising him ..
                            supposed they had seen a spirit
     Matt. 28:17            When they saw Him, they worshiped Him, but some doubted
     Mark 16:12             he appeared in another form
     John 21:4              the disciples did not know that it was Jesus
                            they could not get any one of them ..          WOTJ 7,10,418
                            to confess, that Caesar was their lord

Do you get part 1? Colour-coded here:
http://www.caesarsmessiahproven.com/summary.htm



http://tomverenna.wordpress.com/2012/09/...ent-jesus/


**UPDATE 10-9-13**

Since this “documentary” first appeared, it seems that Mr. Atwill is again trying to profit off the ignorance of others. Now, self-styled as an ‘American Biblical scholar”, Mr. Atwill is peddling his book of lies and misleading theories to those in the UK. This nonsense does not deserve another post; but I will update this one because it can’t go along unopposed.

First, and let me be clear, nothing Joe Atwill has written is ‘conclusive’. In order for it to be conclusive, it would have to surmount all arguments against it. Unfortunately for him, he fails to grasp even basic knowledge about the subject. For example, he makes the rather bizarre claim that:

“In fact he [Jesus - ed.] may be the only fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. Once those sources are all laid bare, there’s simply nothing left.”

Yet this is simply false. The Hebrew Bible is full of fictional literary characters whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. His hyperbole is bizarre. But even so, is Atwill seriously suggesting that fictional stories cannot be written about historical people or events? Wonder Woman is a highly fictionalized and heroicized literary figure inspired by an actual person, the creator’s wife, Elizabeth Marston. Wonder Woman meets Atwill’s classification as a “fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources.”

So it might be argued that maybe he was referring to ancient literature, but even then he is ignorant of basic figures that anyone with a minutiae of Classical education can speak upon. In ancient literature, the figure and legendary king of Sparta, Lycurgus, is entirely mythicized in literature yet may have been a real person (scholarship is split on this). The mythological tale of Gilgamesh, who we have no actual historical information on, is considered to be a historical figure and ancient king by most leading Sumerologists and yet his entire life story is one of our earliest extant written sources and one of our earliest written myths period. The biographies of Plutarch are propagandist fantasies of his about the lives of historical people like Alexander the Great (mixed in with purely fictional figures like Romulus).

This should be enough to make my point; Atwill makes claims that cannot be supported when those with some basic knowledge of the subject explore the claims further. This is a serious flaw in Atwill’s work. He makes claims but doesn’t seem to realize how ridiculous they actually are; it is that scholars find his work “outlandish”. It is just plain wrong. I mean it is still crazy talk, but it is more that his whole premise is wrong.

For example, like all sensationalist crap-dealers, Mr, Atwill claims to have discovered the secret, super-dooper, hidden code in the text. Amazing! A self-proclaimed “Biblical scholar”, with no formal training in the material, has used his magic decoder ring and stumbled upon a code! How clever of him. He states:

Atwill’s most intriguing discovery came to him while he was studying “Wars of the Jews” by Josephus [the only surviving first-person historical account of first-century Judea] alongside the New Testament. “I started to notice a sequence of parallels between the two texts,” he recounts. “Although it’s been recognised by Christian scholars for centuries that the prophesies of Jesus appear to be fulfilled by what Josephus wrote about in the First Jewish-Roman war, I was seeing dozens more. What seems to have eluded many scholars is that the sequence of events and locations of Jesus ministry are more or less the same as the sequence of events and locations of the military campaign of [Emperor] Titus Flavius as described by Josephus. This is clear evidence of a deliberately constructed pattern. The biography of Jesus is actually constructed, tip to stern, on prior stories, but especially on the biography of a Roman Caesar.”

First, and let me be clear, are there striking similarities between Josephus and the Gospel of Luke? Yes, there are. Steven Mason, a real scholar, has published an entire volume on the subject called Josephus and the New Testament. Richard Carrier has also written on the subject of the parallels between Josephus and Luke-Acts. Joel Watts, an actual student of Biblical Studies who has done graduate work in the field (unlike Mr. Atwill), has written an academically-published book on some interesting mimetic elements between Mark and Josephus.

The difference between what these scholars have written and what Mr. Atwill have written is threefold: (a) all of them have academic training in Greek, (b) all of them published through an academic press (Carrier is the exception, but he has published academically and is qualified on the subject), © None of them make the illogical leap that similarities between Josephus (a Jew) and the Gospels (written by Jewish authors) mean that the Romans did it. In fact it is the same misguided leap that some evangelicals make about God. “We don’t know, ergo ‘God did it’.” Instead, all of these scholars agree that the most rational reason for these similarities is that the Gospel authors had copies of Josephus, or Josephus had copies of the Gospels. This sort of interplay of texts is not new in the ancient world.

Second, Notwithstanding this damning evidence against him, Atwill’s premise is quite narrowed and simplistic, demonstrating a critical lack of understanding of the cultural dynamics of Judea in the first century.

There exist over 30 Jewish sects that we know of from the first century, and have some basic understanding of their belief structures. There are some dozens more we just know by name. On top of that, we have to conclude there are perhaps dozens, if not hundreds, more Jewish sects of which we simply have no record. What is so interesting is how incredibly different each sect is from each other.

Despite Atwill’s unlearned claim that the Jewish people were expecting a ‘Warrior messiah’, in truth there is no universal version of a messiah. Even among the same sect, over time, the concept of their messiah would change. In the Dead Sea Scrolls, which Mr. Atwill seems to think he knows so well, the language of the messiah and his purpose changes (in fact at one point, we see two distinct messiahs at once–one a priestly messiah and another a kingly messiah). Some sects did not even expect a messiah at all. Any of the numerous works on messianic expectations published in the last two decades utterly annihilates any claim that Atwill is making about some uniformity in Jewish thought and ritual.

Even logically, his analysis is flawed. If this tactic was used against the Jews, why didn’t the Romans use it against an even greater threat: the Gauls?! The Jewish people were never as serious a threat to the Empire as much as the Gauls were–who sacked Rome twice and destroyed Legions. Atwill never seems to consider how basically incompetent his thesis is in this regard. If the Romans had such success against the Jews using this “psychological warfare” (anachronism alert!! Danger! Danger!), why don’t we see this happening against all of their enemies? It is just so beyond absurd. It really is.

Here is the thing; it may be that Mr. Atwill is completely clueless about this. Maybe he isn’t just trying to scam everyone and sell a bunch of books to a group of gullible people. Maybe he legitimately hasn’t read anything relevant on this subject or any recent scholarship on it.

But that is troubling–would you want to read a science book written by a layperson who hasn’t read a single relevant scientific study? Would you pick up a book on engineering written by someone with a background in computer science, and trust that book enough to build a house based upon its designs? I hope not. I sincerely hope that no one would agree to trust either of these books.

This is the issue with Mr. Atwill. He may sincerely believe he has discovered the secret code off a cereal box with his 3-D glasses he found inside; that doesn’t make him an expert in the subject, it doesn’t make him knowledgeable enough to give lectures on it. It certainly does not make him credible.

Mr. Atwill is just like all the other amateur-Scholar-wannabes who refuse to put in the time and effort to earn a degree in the field, who want to advance their pet theories to sell books and dupe you over. He relies on popular media and the ignorance of the layperson to score points rather than publishing in a credible academic journal or publishing academically. He knows he can’t do that, because he has no clue how academics work, how they think, or what they actually argue on the subject. He might as well claim that Jesus lived on Atlantis, which came from Mars. That theory is about as ridiculous as the notion that Rome invented Jesus.




It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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14-01-2014, 02:40 AM (This post was last modified: 14-01-2014 03:27 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus myth
(14-01-2014 01:24 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(13-01-2014 07:00 AM)gilius2k14 Wrote:  It's quite easy for the "thinking atheist" to prove Atwill's theory based on the evidence he presents, but you first need to at least agree that one book is based upon another (proof part 1). You then need to be able to understand the satire (proof part 2). It can then be proven that both books were authored by the same source (proof part 3): Flavians, who, in the process, invented Jesus and Christianity.

PARALLELS - VERBATIM / NEAR-VERBATIM
“good news” euaggelion in Greek (Luke 4:43 + Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 503)
boats vs. vessels + catch men vs. Romans caught them (Luke 5:1-10 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 520-527)
Sabbath + “right hand” vs. Seventh day + “right hands” (Luke 6:1-11 vs. WOTJ 4, 2, 92-104)
herd ran violently vs. wild beasts rushed + “into the” lake vs. “into the” current (Luke 8:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 8, 425, 434)
loose + bound (Luke 9:18 substituted by Matt. 16:19 + WOTJ 4, 10, 628-629)
the crowds were increasing vs. The Jews became still more and more in number (Luke 11:29 vs. WOTJ 5, 2, 78)
divided .. three .. two (Luke 12:52 + WOTJ 5, 3, 105)
“Cut down” fruit trees (Luke 13:7-9 + WOTJ 5, 3, 107)
“build a tower” (Luke 14:28-30 + WOTJ 5, 6, 258-260)
conditions “of peace” vs. terms “of peace” (Luke 14:32 vs. WOTJ 5, 6, 261)
stones “cry out” (Luke 19:40 + WOTJ 5, 6, 272)
build a wall around the Jews (Luke 19:43-44 + WOTJ 5, 12, 499)
sacrifice cease vs. sacrifice failed (Luke 21:10-11, 20 linked to Dan. 9:27 vs. WOTJ 6, 2, 94)
temple vs. HOLY HOUSE + signs + not one stone left vs. DESTRUCTION (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs./+ WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
(Jesus): woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + “give up the ghost” (was also crucified and scourged) (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
in Christ’s name vs. God commanded them + false prophets + deceived many vs. imposed on the people (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
famine + pestilences vs. mouth almost closed + earthquakes vs. quaking (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
thief vs. robbers + houses vs. into the city (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
east + west + “four winds” + “bridegrooms and the brides” (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 and Matt 25:1 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
nursing babies vs. child sucking at breast (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 6,3,203)
Zach: murdered between the temple and the altar vs. in the middle of the temple, and slew him (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343)
two + died + crucified + (one survives) “taken down” (by Joseph)(Luke 23:50-53 linked to Luke 23:32-33 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to Life of Flavius Josephus 75)
John: evil vs. wicked + condemned (but lives in) prison + Iscariot vs. Sicarii +
Simon: cutting himself with stones vs. stone-cutters + condemned + death vs. slain (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)

PARALLELS - NAMES AND LOCATIONS
“Lake of Gennesaret” (Luke 5:1-10 + Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 463)
Jesus and his apostles vs. Jesus and his party (Luke 5:1-10 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 467)
Chorazin produces the Coracin fish (Luke 5:10 linked to Matt 11:21 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 520-527)
John (Luke 7:33 + Wars of the Jews 4, 7, 389)
Gadara (Luke 8:26-30 + WOTJ 4, 7, 413)
Mary (Luke 22:19 linked to Luke 2:34 + WOTJ 6, 3, 201-209)
Jesus (Luke 23:46 + WOTJ 6, 5, 298-315)
Zechariah, son of Berechiah vs. Zacharias the son of Baruch (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343)
Joseph of Arimathea vs. Josephus bar Matthias (Luke 23:50-53 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to Life of Flavius Josephus 75)
John (disciple whom Jesus loved) + Simon (Peter) (Luke 24:16, 37 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 7, 10, 418)
Simon bar Jonas vs. Simon bar Gioras

PARALLELS - CONCEPTUAL
Son sent by father (Luke 4:42-43 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 446)
Taking the lead + reassurance (Luke 5:1-10 linked to Matt. 4:19 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 483-484)
fish vs. attempted to swim + began to sink vs. drowning (Luke 5:1-10 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 520-527)
demon vs. tyrannize and wickedest (Luke 7:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 7, 389 linked to WOTJ 7, 6, 185)
Legion vs. too small for an army, and too many for a gang of thieves (WOTJ 4, 7, 408)
demons entering swine vs. running together to a certain village and arming many young men, i.e. one group infecting another (Luke 8:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 8, 420-421)
On to Jerusalem - the messengers are sent ahead (Luke 9:52 vs. WOTJ 5, 1, 40)
Human Passover lamb (Luke 22:19 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6, 3, 201-209 linked to other passages)
houses on fire - unable to enter nor retrieve cloths (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
Caesar and the Roman army coming down and killing many Jews (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 and Dan 7:13 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
Dead bodies underground with a foul smell (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)
Martyrs death into a “proper place” following Jesus’ death (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)
Doubt in their Lord’s identity (Luke 24:16, 37 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 7, 10, 418)

Code:
Luke 4:42-43                good news (euaggelion) .. God .. I have been sent (Jesus)      
                            Sent away his son Titus ..                     WOTJ 3,9,446 + 3,10,503
                            good news (euaggelion)
Luke 5:1-10                 Lake of Gennesaret .. He (Jesus) .. Simon .. fish ..
                            boats .. began to sink .. Simon Peter .. Do not be afraid .. Catch men
Matt 4:19                   Follow Me .. fishers of men
     Matt 11:21             Chorazin (Galilean fishing village/peoples)                  
                            lake of Gennesaret .. Jesus and his party..    WOTJ 3,10,463-484, 520-527
                            produces the Coracin fish ..
                            vessels .. Romans caught them ..
                            drowning .. attempted to swim .. I shall go into danger first ..
                            Do not you therefore desert me
Luke 6:1-11                 Sabbath .. right hand
                            Seventh day .. right hands                     WOTJ 4,2,92-104
Luke 7:33, 8:26-30          John .. has a demon .. Gadarenes .. Legion
                            John .. beginning to tyrannize .. wickedest .. WOTJ 4,7,389,408,413
                            too small for an army, and too many for a gang of thieves .. Gadara
                            John ... filled the entire countryside  WOTJ 7,8,263
                            with ten thousand instances of wickedness  
                            Demons ... are no other than            WOTJ 7,6,185
                            the spirits of the wicked
Luke 8:33                   demons went out of the man and entered the swine ..
                            herd ran violently .. into the lake
                            they ran together to a certain village ..      WOTJ 4,8,420-421,425,434
                            great multitude of young men, arming them ..
                            wild beasts rushed .. into the current
Luke 9:18(Matt 16:19), 9:52 bound .. loosed .. He steadfastly set His face
                            to go to Jerusalem, and sent messengers before
                            loose .. bound .. ordered the rest to meet him WOTJ 4,10,628-629 + 5,1,40
                            at Jerusalem, marched out
Luke 11:29, 12:52, 13:7-9   the crowds were increasing .. divided .. three .. two ..
                            tree .. fruit .. cut it down
                            The Jews became still more and more in number  WOTJ 5,2,78 + 5,3,105,107
                            .. divided .. three .. two .. cut down .. fruit trees
Luke 14:28-32, 19:40        intending to build a tower .. conditions of peace .. stones .. cry out
                            might make an impression upon the walls        WOTJ 5,6,258-261,272
                            .. build .. tower .. terms of peace .. stone .. cried out
Luke 19:43-44               build an embankment around you ..
                            close you in .. and your children
                            build a wall round about the whole city ..     WOTJ 5,12,499
                            prevent the Jews from coming out
Luke 21:10-11, 20           kingdom against kingdom .. earthquakes ..
                            famines .. pestilences .. desolation
     Matt. 24:7, 15         kingdom against kingdom .. famines .. pestilences
                            .. earthquakes .. abomination of desolation
     Dan. 9:27              sacrifice .. cease .. abominations .. desolate
                            sacrifice .. failed                            WOTJ 6, 2, 94
Luke 22:19                  bread .. gave .. this is my body
     Mark 14:22             Jesus took bread .. eat .. this is my body
     John 19:29-33          hyssop .. Jesus .. dead .. they did not break his legs
     Luke 2:34-35           Mary .. his Mother .. Child .. pierce through your own soul
     Exodus 12:9, 12:21-22  roasted .. with its legs .. Passover lamb .. hyssop
                            Mary .. Hyssop .. famine .. pierced            WOTJ 6,3,201-209
                            through her very bowels .. slew her son .. roasted him ..
                            eat .. half of him .. saved a .. portion (splanchon)
                            siege .. Jerusalem ..                   WOTJ 6,9,420-421
                            feast of unleavened bread .. famine
                            Jews .. besieged .. famine                     Severus, Sacred History 2.30
                            .. eating .. human bodies
Luke 23:46                  Jesus .. gave up the ghost
     Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44  Jesus spoke .. woe .. Woe .. Woe .. Woe ..
                            Woe .. Woe .. Woe .. Woe

                            Zechariah, son of Berechiah ..
                            murdered between the temple and the altar

                            the temple .. Jesus said ..  
                            not one stone shall be left here upon another

                            sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?
                            will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many

                            will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes

                            many false prophets will rise up and deceive many

                            Let him .. on the housetop not .. take anything out of his house
                            .. not go back to get his clothes.

                            woe to those who are pregnant .. nursing babies .. lightning comes ..
                            east .. west .. coming of the Son of Man

                            wherever the carcass is .. eagles will be gathered together.
                            Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven ..
                            will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet .. four winds

                            the thief would come .. house to be broken into

     Matt 25:1              bridegroom and the bride.
     Dan 7:13               Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven!        
                            THE HOLY HOUSE ..                              WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315  
                            THE SIGNS THAT PRECEDED THIS DESTRUCTION
                            many ..  worn away by the famine .. mouths almost closed
                            multitude of the robbers .. into the city
                            round about the holy house, burnt all those places ..
                            money .. garments .. precious goods reposited
                            God commanded them .. great number of false prophets ..
                            impose on the people
                            chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor
                            were seen running about among the clouds
                            felt a quaking
                            Jesus .. to cry aloud
                            east .. west .. four winds
                            .. bridegrooms and the brides
                            took up the man .. number of severe stripes ..
                            Woe, woe .. uttered .. Woe, woe .. Woe, woe ..
                            Woe, woe.. gave up the ghost
                            Zacharias the son of Baruch ..          WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343  
                            in the middle of the temple, and slew him
                            child sucking at her breast             WOTJ 6,3,203
Luke 23:50-53               Joseph .. from Arimathea .. body of Jesus .. took it down
     Luke 23:32-33          two .. death .. crucified
                            crucified .. taken down (by             Life of Flavius Josephus 75
                            Josephus bar Matthias) .. two died
Luke 23:56, 24:12           prepared spices and fragrant oils .. Peter ran to the tomb .. stooping down

     Mark 5:1-5             man with an unclean spirit .. tombs .. cutting himself with stones

     Mark 8:28-29           two demon-possessed men .. tombs

     John 6:70-71           one is a devil .. Simon the Iscariot

     John 21:18-24          another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go

                            kind of death .. to glorify God .. Follow me .. Peter

                            disciple whom Jesus loved .. it is my will that he remains

     Luke 22:31-31          Peter .. ready to go both to prison and to death      

     Matt 16:22-25          Peter .. Satan .. Jesus told his diciples ..
                            take up his cross and follow me

     Luke 23:26             Simon .. cross, for him to carry it behind Jesus

     Gal 2:11               Cephas (Simon) .. condemned

     John 5:26-29           all who are in the graves ..

                            evil .. resurrection of condemnation

                            search .. under ground ..                      WOTJ 6,9,429-434
                            ill savor of the dead bodies .. Simon .. slain ..

                            John condemned to perpetual imprisonment

                            John .. Sicarii .. wickedness           WOTJ 7,8,263

                            Simon .. among .. stone-cutters         WOTJ 7,2,26

                            Simon drawn into a proper place         WOTJ 7,5,154
Luke 24:16, 37              But their eyes were kept from recognising him ..
                            supposed they had seen a spirit
     Matt. 28:17            When they saw Him, they worshiped Him, but some doubted
     Mark 16:12             he appeared in another form
     John 21:4              the disciples did not know that it was Jesus
                            they could not get any one of them ..          WOTJ 7,10,418
                            to confess, that Caesar was their lord

Do you get part 1? Colour-coded here:
http://www.caesarsmessiahproven.com/summary.htm



http://tomverenna.wordpress.com/2012/09/...ent-jesus/


**UPDATE 10-9-13**

Since this “documentary” first appeared, it seems that Mr. Atwill is again trying to profit off the ignorance of others. Now, self-styled as an ‘American Biblical scholar”, Mr. Atwill is peddling his book of lies and misleading theories to those in the UK. This nonsense does not deserve another post; but I will update this one because it can’t go along unopposed.

First, and let me be clear, nothing Joe Atwill has written is ‘conclusive’. In order for it to be conclusive, it would have to surmount all arguments against it. Unfortunately for him, he fails to grasp even basic knowledge about the subject. For example, he makes the rather bizarre claim that:

“In fact he [Jesus - ed.] may be the only fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. Once those sources are all laid bare, there’s simply nothing left.”

Yet this is simply false. The Hebrew Bible is full of fictional literary characters whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. His hyperbole is bizarre. But even so, is Atwill seriously suggesting that fictional stories cannot be written about historical people or events? Wonder Woman is a highly fictionalized and heroicized literary figure inspired by an actual person, the creator’s wife, Elizabeth Marston. Wonder Woman meets Atwill’s classification as a “fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources.”

So it might be argued that maybe he was referring to ancient literature, but even then he is ignorant of basic figures that anyone with a minutiae of Classical education can speak upon. In ancient literature, the figure and legendary king of Sparta, Lycurgus, is entirely mythicized in literature yet may have been a real person (scholarship is split on this). The mythological tale of Gilgamesh, who we have no actual historical information on, is considered to be a historical figure and ancient king by most leading Sumerologists and yet his entire life story is one of our earliest extant written sources and one of our earliest written myths period. The biographies of Plutarch are propagandist fantasies of his about the lives of historical people like Alexander the Great (mixed in with purely fictional figures like Romulus).

This should be enough to make my point; Atwill makes claims that cannot be supported when those with some basic knowledge of the subject explore the claims further. This is a serious flaw in Atwill’s work. He makes claims but doesn’t seem to realize how ridiculous they actually are; it is that scholars find his work “outlandish”. It is just plain wrong. I mean it is still crazy talk, but it is more that his whole premise is wrong.

For example, like all sensationalist crap-dealers, Mr, Atwill claims to have discovered the secret, super-dooper, hidden code in the text. Amazing! A self-proclaimed “Biblical scholar”, with no formal training in the material, has used his magic decoder ring and stumbled upon a code! How clever of him. He states:

Atwill’s most intriguing discovery came to him while he was studying “Wars of the Jews” by Josephus [the only surviving first-person historical account of first-century Judea] alongside the New Testament. “I started to notice a sequence of parallels between the two texts,” he recounts. “Although it’s been recognised by Christian scholars for centuries that the prophesies of Jesus appear to be fulfilled by what Josephus wrote about in the First Jewish-Roman war, I was seeing dozens more. What seems to have eluded many scholars is that the sequence of events and locations of Jesus ministry are more or less the same as the sequence of events and locations of the military campaign of [Emperor] Titus Flavius as described by Josephus. This is clear evidence of a deliberately constructed pattern. The biography of Jesus is actually constructed, tip to stern, on prior stories, but especially on the biography of a Roman Caesar.”

First, and let me be clear, are there striking similarities between Josephus and the Gospel of Luke? Yes, there are. Steven Mason, a real scholar, has published an entire volume on the subject called Josephus and the New Testament. Richard Carrier has also written on the subject of the parallels between Josephus and Luke-Acts. Joel Watts, an actual student of Biblical Studies who has done graduate work in the field (unlike Mr. Atwill), has written an academically-published book on some interesting mimetic elements between Mark and Josephus.

The difference between what these scholars have written and what Mr. Atwill have written is threefold: (a) all of them have academic training in Greek, (b) all of them published through an academic press (Carrier is the exception, but he has published academically and is qualified on the subject), © None of them make the illogical leap that similarities between Josephus (a Jew) and the Gospels (written by Jewish authors) mean that the Romans did it. In fact it is the same misguided leap that some evangelicals make about God. “We don’t know, ergo ‘God did it’.” Instead, all of these scholars agree that the most rational reason for these similarities is that the Gospel authors had copies of Josephus, or Josephus had copies of the Gospels. This sort of interplay of texts is not new in the ancient world.

Second, Notwithstanding this damning evidence against him, Atwill’s premise is quite narrowed and simplistic, demonstrating a critical lack of understanding of the cultural dynamics of Judea in the first century.

There exist over 30 Jewish sects that we know of from the first century, and have some basic understanding of their belief structures. There are some dozens more we just know by name. On top of that, we have to conclude there are perhaps dozens, if not hundreds, more Jewish sects of which we simply have no record. What is so interesting is how incredibly different each sect is from each other.

Despite Atwill’s unlearned claim that the Jewish people were expecting a ‘Warrior messiah’, in truth there is no universal version of a messiah. Even among the same sect, over time, the concept of their messiah would change. In the Dead Sea Scrolls, which Mr. Atwill seems to think he knows so well, the language of the messiah and his purpose changes (in fact at one point, we see two distinct messiahs at once–one a priestly messiah and another a kingly messiah). Some sects did not even expect a messiah at all. Any of the numerous works on messianic expectations published in the last two decades utterly annihilates any claim that Atwill is making about some uniformity in Jewish thought and ritual.

Even logically, his analysis is flawed. If this tactic was used against the Jews, why didn’t the Romans use it against an even greater threat: the Gauls?! The Jewish people were never as serious a threat to the Empire as much as the Gauls were–who sacked Rome twice and destroyed Legions. Atwill never seems to consider how basically incompetent his thesis is in this regard. If the Romans had such success against the Jews using this “psychological warfare” (anachronism alert!! Danger! Danger!), why don’t we see this happening against all of their enemies? It is just so beyond absurd. It really is.

Here is the thing; it may be that Mr. Atwill is completely clueless about this. Maybe he isn’t just trying to scam everyone and sell a bunch of books to a group of gullible people. Maybe he legitimately hasn’t read anything relevant on this subject or any recent scholarship on it.

But that is troubling–would you want to read a science book written by a layperson who hasn’t read a single relevant scientific study? Would you pick up a book on engineering written by someone with a background in computer science, and trust that book enough to build a house based upon its designs? I hope not. I sincerely hope that no one would agree to trust either of these books.

This is the issue with Mr. Atwill. He may sincerely believe he has discovered the secret code off a cereal box with his 3-D glasses he found inside; that doesn’t make him an expert in the subject, it doesn’t make him knowledgeable enough to give lectures on it. It certainly does not make him credible.

Mr. Atwill is just like all the other amateur-Scholar-wannabes who refuse to put in the time and effort to earn a degree in the field, who want to advance their pet theories to sell books and dupe you over. He relies on popular media and the ignorance of the layperson to score points rather than publishing in a credible academic journal or publishing academically. He knows he can’t do that, because he has no clue how academics work, how they think, or what they actually argue on the subject. He might as well claim that Jesus lived on Atlantis, which came from Mars. That theory is about as ridiculous as the notion that Rome invented Jesus.

Ok....here we go again....

Ek.....internet friend, fellow atheist....please read the damn book for yourself, and come to your own conclusions. Is that too much to ask?

This commentary is terrible.... full of ad hominems and appeals to authority, and very little discussion of the actual theory.

"First, and let me be clear, nothing Joe Atwill has written is ‘conclusive’. In order for it to be conclusive, it would have to surmount all arguments against it."

This is true. Atwill has a plausible theory, but can't absolutely prove it. So what?

"For example, he makes the rather bizarre claim that:

“In fact he [Jesus - ed.] may be the only fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. Once those sources are all laid bare, there’s simply nothing left.”"

This is the only sensible point this commentator makes in his whole commentary. Yes, Atwill has made a mistake here. He's human. He should have phrased this better. End of story. This barely detracts from his thesis.

"Second, Notwithstanding this damning evidence against him, Atwill’s premise is quite narrowed and simplistic, demonstrating a critical lack of understanding of the cultural dynamics of Judea in the first century.

There exist over 30 Jewish sects that we know of from the first century, and have some basic understanding of their belief structures. There are some dozens more we just know by name. On top of that, we have to conclude there are perhaps dozens, if not hundreds, more Jewish sects of which we simply have no record. What is so interesting is how incredibly different each sect is from each other. Despite Atwill’s unlearned claim that the Jewish people were expecting a ‘Warrior messiah’, in truth there is no universal version of a messiah. Even among the same sect, over time, the concept of their messiah would change."

WRONG!!!

Atwill doesn't comment about different Jewish cults; that is not really what his book is
about. Yes, the Messiah meant different things to different people. The fact remains that the majority of ordinary Jews dreamed about a political Messiah. My evidence?

1.“The Jews discovered a fierce impatience of the dominion of Rome, which repeatedly broke out in the most furious massacres and insurrections…and we are tempted to applaud the severe retaliation which was exercised by the arms of the legions against a race of fanatics, whose dire and credulous superstition seemed to render them the implacable enemies not only of the Roman government, but of human kind. The enthusiasm of the Jews was supported by the opinion, that it was unlawful for them to pay taxes to an idolatrous master; and by the flattering promise which they derived from their ancient oracles, that a conquering Messiah would soon arise, destined to break their fetters, and to invest the favorites of heaven with the empire of the earth.”
(Edward Gibbon)

The Jewish expectation for a political leader, (a Messiah or "savior") had been introduced in parts of Isaiah, which was probably written during or just after the Babylonian captivity. It refers to the restoration of the nation of Israel. (http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm). In Yeshua’s day there was a widespread hope among Jews that a Messiah would lead the people in a revolt to establish the “kingdom of God,” in which Jews would be in charge and the world’s wealth would be distributed evenly, not condensed in Roman hands and aristocratic families.
2.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mes...laimants).

3.Josephus, writing in the late first century, explains why Jews were so inspired by these patriotic dreams:
“That which chiefly excited them to war was an ambiguous prophecy, which was also found in the sacred books, that at that time someone, within their country should arise, that should obtain the empire of the whole world. For this they had spoken of one of their nation; and many wise men were deceived with the interpretation” (Josephus, Wars of the Jews.)
Two secular Roman historians say something similar:
4. “There had spread all over the Orient an old and established belief, that it was fated for men coming from Judea to rule the world.” (Seutonius, Life of Vespasian, 4.5.)
5. “The majority [of the Jews] were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judea would go forth men destined to rule the world.” (Tacitus, Histories 5.13.)
Throughout the first century revolutionary groups of zealots led by hopeful messianic leaders commonly formed, promised apocalyptic deliverance, but achieved nothing lasting. The Qumran community, who compiled the Dead Sea Scrolls, was one such group. They had a pathological hatred for the Romans (whom they called the “Kittim.”) They also despised the Sadducees, who they regarded as Rome’s lackeys. After years of Roman domination, they dreamed of a bloody revenge. A part of the Scrolls describes a fantasy of a battle in which the Kittim were crushed:
6. “This shall be a time of salvation for people of God, and age of dominion for all the members of His company, and of everlasting destruction for the company of Satan… The dominion of the Kittim shall come to an end and iniquity shall be vanquished, leaving no remnant for the sons of darkness, there shall be no escape. The sons of righteousness shall shine over all the ends of earth; they shall go on shining until all the seasons of darkness are consumed and, at the season appointed by God, His exalted greatness shall shine eternally to the peace, blessing, glory, and long life of all the sons of light” (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/scroll...h/07.htm). The leader of the army who led them in this fantasized battle is unequivocally called the “messiah.” They were obviously fanatical and, as things turned out, rather deluded, as neither God nor a successful messiah ever made an appearance.

To be continued.....
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14-01-2014, 02:59 AM (This post was last modified: 14-01-2014 03:04 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus myth
(14-01-2014 01:24 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(13-01-2014 07:00 AM)gilius2k14 Wrote:  It's quite easy for the "thinking atheist" to prove Atwill's theory based on the evidence he presents, but you first need to at least agree that one book is based upon another (proof part 1). You then need to be able to understand the satire (proof part 2). It can then be proven that both books were authored by the same source (proof part 3): Flavians, who, in the process, invented Jesus and Christianity.

PARALLELS - VERBATIM / NEAR-VERBATIM
“good news” euaggelion in Greek (Luke 4:43 + Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 503)
boats vs. vessels + catch men vs. Romans caught them (Luke 5:1-10 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 520-527)
Sabbath + “right hand” vs. Seventh day + “right hands” (Luke 6:1-11 vs. WOTJ 4, 2, 92-104)
herd ran violently vs. wild beasts rushed + “into the” lake vs. “into the” current (Luke 8:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 8, 425, 434)
loose + bound (Luke 9:18 substituted by Matt. 16:19 + WOTJ 4, 10, 628-629)
the crowds were increasing vs. The Jews became still more and more in number (Luke 11:29 vs. WOTJ 5, 2, 78)
divided .. three .. two (Luke 12:52 + WOTJ 5, 3, 105)
“Cut down” fruit trees (Luke 13:7-9 + WOTJ 5, 3, 107)
“build a tower” (Luke 14:28-30 + WOTJ 5, 6, 258-260)
conditions “of peace” vs. terms “of peace” (Luke 14:32 vs. WOTJ 5, 6, 261)
stones “cry out” (Luke 19:40 + WOTJ 5, 6, 272)
build a wall around the Jews (Luke 19:43-44 + WOTJ 5, 12, 499)
sacrifice cease vs. sacrifice failed (Luke 21:10-11, 20 linked to Dan. 9:27 vs. WOTJ 6, 2, 94)
temple vs. HOLY HOUSE + signs + not one stone left vs. DESTRUCTION (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs./+ WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
(Jesus): woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + “give up the ghost” (was also crucified and scourged) (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
in Christ’s name vs. God commanded them + false prophets + deceived many vs. imposed on the people (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
famine + pestilences vs. mouth almost closed + earthquakes vs. quaking (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
thief vs. robbers + houses vs. into the city (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
east + west + “four winds” + “bridegrooms and the brides” (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 and Matt 25:1 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
nursing babies vs. child sucking at breast (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 6,3,203)
Zach: murdered between the temple and the altar vs. in the middle of the temple, and slew him (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343)
two + died + crucified + (one survives) “taken down” (by Joseph)(Luke 23:50-53 linked to Luke 23:32-33 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to Life of Flavius Josephus 75)
John: evil vs. wicked + condemned (but lives in) prison + Iscariot vs. Sicarii +
Simon: cutting himself with stones vs. stone-cutters + condemned + death vs. slain (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)

PARALLELS - NAMES AND LOCATIONS
“Lake of Gennesaret” (Luke 5:1-10 + Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 463)
Jesus and his apostles vs. Jesus and his party (Luke 5:1-10 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 467)
Chorazin produces the Coracin fish (Luke 5:10 linked to Matt 11:21 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 520-527)
John (Luke 7:33 + Wars of the Jews 4, 7, 389)
Gadara (Luke 8:26-30 + WOTJ 4, 7, 413)
Mary (Luke 22:19 linked to Luke 2:34 + WOTJ 6, 3, 201-209)
Jesus (Luke 23:46 + WOTJ 6, 5, 298-315)
Zechariah, son of Berechiah vs. Zacharias the son of Baruch (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343)
Joseph of Arimathea vs. Josephus bar Matthias (Luke 23:50-53 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to Life of Flavius Josephus 75)
John (disciple whom Jesus loved) + Simon (Peter) (Luke 24:16, 37 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 7, 10, 418)
Simon bar Jonas vs. Simon bar Gioras

PARALLELS - CONCEPTUAL
Son sent by father (Luke 4:42-43 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 446)
Taking the lead + reassurance (Luke 5:1-10 linked to Matt. 4:19 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 483-484)
fish vs. attempted to swim + began to sink vs. drowning (Luke 5:1-10 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 520-527)
demon vs. tyrannize and wickedest (Luke 7:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 7, 389 linked to WOTJ 7, 6, 185)
Legion vs. too small for an army, and too many for a gang of thieves (WOTJ 4, 7, 408)
demons entering swine vs. running together to a certain village and arming many young men, i.e. one group infecting another (Luke 8:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 8, 420-421)
On to Jerusalem - the messengers are sent ahead (Luke 9:52 vs. WOTJ 5, 1, 40)
Human Passover lamb (Luke 22:19 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6, 3, 201-209 linked to other passages)
houses on fire - unable to enter nor retrieve cloths (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
Caesar and the Roman army coming down and killing many Jews (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 and Dan 7:13 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
Dead bodies underground with a foul smell (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)
Martyrs death into a “proper place” following Jesus’ death (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)
Doubt in their Lord’s identity (Luke 24:16, 37 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 7, 10, 418)

Code:
Luke 4:42-43                good news (euaggelion) .. God .. I have been sent (Jesus)      
                            Sent away his son Titus ..                     WOTJ 3,9,446 + 3,10,503
                            good news (euaggelion)
Luke 5:1-10                 Lake of Gennesaret .. He (Jesus) .. Simon .. fish ..
                            boats .. began to sink .. Simon Peter .. Do not be afraid .. Catch men
Matt 4:19                   Follow Me .. fishers of men
     Matt 11:21             Chorazin (Galilean fishing village/peoples)                  
                            lake of Gennesaret .. Jesus and his party..    WOTJ 3,10,463-484, 520-527
                            produces the Coracin fish ..
                            vessels .. Romans caught them ..
                            drowning .. attempted to swim .. I shall go into danger first ..
                            Do not you therefore desert me
Luke 6:1-11                 Sabbath .. right hand
                            Seventh day .. right hands                     WOTJ 4,2,92-104
Luke 7:33, 8:26-30          John .. has a demon .. Gadarenes .. Legion
                            John .. beginning to tyrannize .. wickedest .. WOTJ 4,7,389,408,413
                            too small for an army, and too many for a gang of thieves .. Gadara
                            John ... filled the entire countryside  WOTJ 7,8,263
                            with ten thousand instances of wickedness  
                            Demons ... are no other than            WOTJ 7,6,185
                            the spirits of the wicked
Luke 8:33                   demons went out of the man and entered the swine ..
                            herd ran violently .. into the lake
                            they ran together to a certain village ..      WOTJ 4,8,420-421,425,434
                            great multitude of young men, arming them ..
                            wild beasts rushed .. into the current
Luke 9:18(Matt 16:19), 9:52 bound .. loosed .. He steadfastly set His face
                            to go to Jerusalem, and sent messengers before
                            loose .. bound .. ordered the rest to meet him WOTJ 4,10,628-629 + 5,1,40
                            at Jerusalem, marched out
Luke 11:29, 12:52, 13:7-9   the crowds were increasing .. divided .. three .. two ..
                            tree .. fruit .. cut it down
                            The Jews became still more and more in number  WOTJ 5,2,78 + 5,3,105,107
                            .. divided .. three .. two .. cut down .. fruit trees
Luke 14:28-32, 19:40        intending to build a tower .. conditions of peace .. stones .. cry out
                            might make an impression upon the walls        WOTJ 5,6,258-261,272
                            .. build .. tower .. terms of peace .. stone .. cried out
Luke 19:43-44               build an embankment around you ..
                            close you in .. and your children
                            build a wall round about the whole city ..     WOTJ 5,12,499
                            prevent the Jews from coming out
Luke 21:10-11, 20           kingdom against kingdom .. earthquakes ..
                            famines .. pestilences .. desolation
     Matt. 24:7, 15         kingdom against kingdom .. famines .. pestilences
                            .. earthquakes .. abomination of desolation
     Dan. 9:27              sacrifice .. cease .. abominations .. desolate
                            sacrifice .. failed                            WOTJ 6, 2, 94
Luke 22:19                  bread .. gave .. this is my body
     Mark 14:22             Jesus took bread .. eat .. this is my body
     John 19:29-33          hyssop .. Jesus .. dead .. they did not break his legs
     Luke 2:34-35           Mary .. his Mother .. Child .. pierce through your own soul
     Exodus 12:9, 12:21-22  roasted .. with its legs .. Passover lamb .. hyssop
                            Mary .. Hyssop .. famine .. pierced            WOTJ 6,3,201-209
                            through her very bowels .. slew her son .. roasted him ..
                            eat .. half of him .. saved a .. portion (splanchon)
                            siege .. Jerusalem ..                   WOTJ 6,9,420-421
                            feast of unleavened bread .. famine
                            Jews .. besieged .. famine                     Severus, Sacred History 2.30
                            .. eating .. human bodies
Luke 23:46                  Jesus .. gave up the ghost
     Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44  Jesus spoke .. woe .. Woe .. Woe .. Woe ..
                            Woe .. Woe .. Woe .. Woe

                            Zechariah, son of Berechiah ..
                            murdered between the temple and the altar

                            the temple .. Jesus said ..  
                            not one stone shall be left here upon another

                            sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?
                            will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many

                            will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes

                            many false prophets will rise up and deceive many

                            Let him .. on the housetop not .. take anything out of his house
                            .. not go back to get his clothes.

                            woe to those who are pregnant .. nursing babies .. lightning comes ..
                            east .. west .. coming of the Son of Man

                            wherever the carcass is .. eagles will be gathered together.
                            Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven ..
                            will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet .. four winds

                            the thief would come .. house to be broken into

     Matt 25:1              bridegroom and the bride.
     Dan 7:13               Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven!        
                            THE HOLY HOUSE ..                              WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315  
                            THE SIGNS THAT PRECEDED THIS DESTRUCTION
                            many ..  worn away by the famine .. mouths almost closed
                            multitude of the robbers .. into the city
                            round about the holy house, burnt all those places ..
                            money .. garments .. precious goods reposited
                            God commanded them .. great number of false prophets ..
                            impose on the people
                            chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor
                            were seen running about among the clouds
                            felt a quaking
                            Jesus .. to cry aloud
                            east .. west .. four winds
                            .. bridegrooms and the brides
                            took up the man .. number of severe stripes ..
                            Woe, woe .. uttered .. Woe, woe .. Woe, woe ..
                            Woe, woe.. gave up the ghost
                            Zacharias the son of Baruch ..          WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343  
                            in the middle of the temple, and slew him
                            child sucking at her breast             WOTJ 6,3,203
Luke 23:50-53               Joseph .. from Arimathea .. body of Jesus .. took it down
     Luke 23:32-33          two .. death .. crucified
                            crucified .. taken down (by             Life of Flavius Josephus 75
                            Josephus bar Matthias) .. two died
Luke 23:56, 24:12           prepared spices and fragrant oils .. Peter ran to the tomb .. stooping down

     Mark 5:1-5             man with an unclean spirit .. tombs .. cutting himself with stones

     Mark 8:28-29           two demon-possessed men .. tombs

     John 6:70-71           one is a devil .. Simon the Iscariot

     John 21:18-24          another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go

                            kind of death .. to glorify God .. Follow me .. Peter

                            disciple whom Jesus loved .. it is my will that he remains

     Luke 22:31-31          Peter .. ready to go both to prison and to death      

     Matt 16:22-25          Peter .. Satan .. Jesus told his diciples ..
                            take up his cross and follow me

     Luke 23:26             Simon .. cross, for him to carry it behind Jesus

     Gal 2:11               Cephas (Simon) .. condemned

     John 5:26-29           all who are in the graves ..

                            evil .. resurrection of condemnation

                            search .. under ground ..                      WOTJ 6,9,429-434
                            ill savor of the dead bodies .. Simon .. slain ..

                            John condemned to perpetual imprisonment

                            John .. Sicarii .. wickedness           WOTJ 7,8,263

                            Simon .. among .. stone-cutters         WOTJ 7,2,26

                            Simon drawn into a proper place         WOTJ 7,5,154
Luke 24:16, 37              But their eyes were kept from recognising him ..
                            supposed they had seen a spirit
     Matt. 28:17            When they saw Him, they worshiped Him, but some doubted
     Mark 16:12             he appeared in another form
     John 21:4              the disciples did not know that it was Jesus
                            they could not get any one of them ..          WOTJ 7,10,418
                            to confess, that Caesar was their lord

Do you get part 1? Colour-coded here:
http://www.caesarsmessiahproven.com/summary.htm



http://tomverenna.wordpress.com/2012/09/...ent-jesus/


**UPDATE 10-9-13**

Since this “documentary” first appeared, it seems that Mr. Atwill is again trying to profit off the ignorance of others. Now, self-styled as an ‘American Biblical scholar”, Mr. Atwill is peddling his book of lies and misleading theories to those in the UK. This nonsense does not deserve another post; but I will update this one because it can’t go along unopposed.

First, and let me be clear, nothing Joe Atwill has written is ‘conclusive’. In order for it to be conclusive, it would have to surmount all arguments against it. Unfortunately for him, he fails to grasp even basic knowledge about the subject. For example, he makes the rather bizarre claim that:

“In fact he [Jesus - ed.] may be the only fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. Once those sources are all laid bare, there’s simply nothing left.”

Yet this is simply false. The Hebrew Bible is full of fictional literary characters whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. His hyperbole is bizarre. But even so, is Atwill seriously suggesting that fictional stories cannot be written about historical people or events? Wonder Woman is a highly fictionalized and heroicized literary figure inspired by an actual person, the creator’s wife, Elizabeth Marston. Wonder Woman meets Atwill’s classification as a “fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources.”

So it might be argued that maybe he was referring to ancient literature, but even then he is ignorant of basic figures that anyone with a minutiae of Classical education can speak upon. In ancient literature, the figure and legendary king of Sparta, Lycurgus, is entirely mythicized in literature yet may have been a real person (scholarship is split on this). The mythological tale of Gilgamesh, who we have no actual historical information on, is considered to be a historical figure and ancient king by most leading Sumerologists and yet his entire life story is one of our earliest extant written sources and one of our earliest written myths period. The biographies of Plutarch are propagandist fantasies of his about the lives of historical people like Alexander the Great (mixed in with purely fictional figures like Romulus).

This should be enough to make my point; Atwill makes claims that cannot be supported when those with some basic knowledge of the subject explore the claims further. This is a serious flaw in Atwill’s work. He makes claims but doesn’t seem to realize how ridiculous they actually are; it is that scholars find his work “outlandish”. It is just plain wrong. I mean it is still crazy talk, but it is more that his whole premise is wrong.

For example, like all sensationalist crap-dealers, Mr, Atwill claims to have discovered the secret, super-dooper, hidden code in the text. Amazing! A self-proclaimed “Biblical scholar”, with no formal training in the material, has used his magic decoder ring and stumbled upon a code! How clever of him. He states:

Atwill’s most intriguing discovery came to him while he was studying “Wars of the Jews” by Josephus [the only surviving first-person historical account of first-century Judea] alongside the New Testament. “I started to notice a sequence of parallels between the two texts,” he recounts. “Although it’s been recognised by Christian scholars for centuries that the prophesies of Jesus appear to be fulfilled by what Josephus wrote about in the First Jewish-Roman war, I was seeing dozens more. What seems to have eluded many scholars is that the sequence of events and locations of Jesus ministry are more or less the same as the sequence of events and locations of the military campaign of [Emperor] Titus Flavius as described by Josephus. This is clear evidence of a deliberately constructed pattern. The biography of Jesus is actually constructed, tip to stern, on prior stories, but especially on the biography of a Roman Caesar.”

First, and let me be clear, are there striking similarities between Josephus and the Gospel of Luke? Yes, there are. Steven Mason, a real scholar, has published an entire volume on the subject called Josephus and the New Testament. Richard Carrier has also written on the subject of the parallels between Josephus and Luke-Acts. Joel Watts, an actual student of Biblical Studies who has done graduate work in the field (unlike Mr. Atwill), has written an academically-published book on some interesting mimetic elements between Mark and Josephus.

The difference between what these scholars have written and what Mr. Atwill have written is threefold: (a) all of them have academic training in Greek, (b) all of them published through an academic press (Carrier is the exception, but he has published academically and is qualified on the subject), © None of them make the illogical leap that similarities between Josephus (a Jew) and the Gospels (written by Jewish authors) mean that the Romans did it. In fact it is the same misguided leap that some evangelicals make about God. “We don’t know, ergo ‘God did it’.” Instead, all of these scholars agree that the most rational reason for these similarities is that the Gospel authors had copies of Josephus, or Josephus had copies of the Gospels. This sort of interplay of texts is not new in the ancient world.

Second, Notwithstanding this damning evidence against him, Atwill’s premise is quite narrowed and simplistic, demonstrating a critical lack of understanding of the cultural dynamics of Judea in the first century.

There exist over 30 Jewish sects that we know of from the first century, and have some basic understanding of their belief structures. There are some dozens more we just know by name. On top of that, we have to conclude there are perhaps dozens, if not hundreds, more Jewish sects of which we simply have no record. What is so interesting is how incredibly different each sect is from each other.

Despite Atwill’s unlearned claim that the Jewish people were expecting a ‘Warrior messiah’, in truth there is no universal version of a messiah. Even among the same sect, over time, the concept of their messiah would change. In the Dead Sea Scrolls, which Mr. Atwill seems to think he knows so well, the language of the messiah and his purpose changes (in fact at one point, we see two distinct messiahs at once–one a priestly messiah and another a kingly messiah). Some sects did not even expect a messiah at all. Any of the numerous works on messianic expectations published in the last two decades utterly annihilates any claim that Atwill is making about some uniformity in Jewish thought and ritual.

Even logically, his analysis is flawed. If this tactic was used against the Jews, why didn’t the Romans use it against an even greater threat: the Gauls?! The Jewish people were never as serious a threat to the Empire as much as the Gauls were–who sacked Rome twice and destroyed Legions. Atwill never seems to consider how basically incompetent his thesis is in this regard. If the Romans had such success against the Jews using this “psychological warfare” (anachronism alert!! Danger! Danger!), why don’t we see this happening against all of their enemies? It is just so beyond absurd. It really is.

Here is the thing; it may be that Mr. Atwill is completely clueless about this. Maybe he isn’t just trying to scam everyone and sell a bunch of books to a group of gullible people. Maybe he legitimately hasn’t read anything relevant on this subject or any recent scholarship on it.

But that is troubling–would you want to read a science book written by a layperson who hasn’t read a single relevant scientific study? Would you pick up a book on engineering written by someone with a background in computer science, and trust that book enough to build a house based upon its designs? I hope not. I sincerely hope that no one would agree to trust either of these books.

This is the issue with Mr. Atwill. He may sincerely believe he has discovered the secret code off a cereal box with his 3-D glasses he found inside; that doesn’t make him an expert in the subject, it doesn’t make him knowledgeable enough to give lectures on it. It certainly does not make him credible.

Mr. Atwill is just like all the other amateur-Scholar-wannabes who refuse to put in the time and effort to earn a degree in the field, who want to advance their pet theories to sell books and dupe you over. He relies on popular media and the ignorance of the layperson to score points rather than publishing in a credible academic journal or publishing academically. He knows he can’t do that, because he has no clue how academics work, how they think, or what they actually argue on the subject. He might as well claim that Jesus lived on Atlantis, which came from Mars. That theory is about as ridiculous as the notion that Rome invented Jesus.

He writes
"Even logically, his analysis is flawed. If this tactic was used against the Jews, why didn’t the Romans use it against an even greater threat: the Gauls?! The Jewish people were never as serious a threat to the Empire as much as the Gauls were–who sacked Rome twice and destroyed Legions."

THIS IS A PATHETIC ARGUMENT.... Do I need to say why? oh, ok, here goes...

Rome always conquered other nations Gods. It was just how they did things. The Jews were unique because they had Scripture and were intensely devoted to it. So Rome wrote their own version of Jewish scripture, which is what became Christianity. Did the Gauls have scripture? I doubt it, and it doesn't matter if they did, it takes nothing away from the theory that this was how Rome used propaganda to deal with the Jews.

"why don’t we see this happening against all of their enemies?"

ALERT ALERT! This commentator knows fuck all about real history!

"Maybe he legitimately hasn’t read anything relevant on this subject or any recent scholarship on it."

This is the pot calling the kettle black. This guy doesn't know how much he doesn't know.
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14-01-2014, 03:13 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(14-01-2014 01:24 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(13-01-2014 07:00 AM)gilius2k14 Wrote:  It's quite easy for the "thinking atheist" to prove Atwill's theory based on the evidence he presents, but you first need to at least agree that one book is based upon another (proof part 1). You then need to be able to understand the satire (proof part 2). It can then be proven that both books were authored by the same source (proof part 3): Flavians, who, in the process, invented Jesus and Christianity.

PARALLELS - VERBATIM / NEAR-VERBATIM
“good news” euaggelion in Greek (Luke 4:43 + Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 503)
boats vs. vessels + catch men vs. Romans caught them (Luke 5:1-10 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 520-527)
Sabbath + “right hand” vs. Seventh day + “right hands” (Luke 6:1-11 vs. WOTJ 4, 2, 92-104)
herd ran violently vs. wild beasts rushed + “into the” lake vs. “into the” current (Luke 8:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 8, 425, 434)
loose + bound (Luke 9:18 substituted by Matt. 16:19 + WOTJ 4, 10, 628-629)
the crowds were increasing vs. The Jews became still more and more in number (Luke 11:29 vs. WOTJ 5, 2, 78)
divided .. three .. two (Luke 12:52 + WOTJ 5, 3, 105)
“Cut down” fruit trees (Luke 13:7-9 + WOTJ 5, 3, 107)
“build a tower” (Luke 14:28-30 + WOTJ 5, 6, 258-260)
conditions “of peace” vs. terms “of peace” (Luke 14:32 vs. WOTJ 5, 6, 261)
stones “cry out” (Luke 19:40 + WOTJ 5, 6, 272)
build a wall around the Jews (Luke 19:43-44 + WOTJ 5, 12, 499)
sacrifice cease vs. sacrifice failed (Luke 21:10-11, 20 linked to Dan. 9:27 vs. WOTJ 6, 2, 94)
temple vs. HOLY HOUSE + signs + not one stone left vs. DESTRUCTION (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs./+ WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
(Jesus): woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + “give up the ghost” (was also crucified and scourged) (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
in Christ’s name vs. God commanded them + false prophets + deceived many vs. imposed on the people (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
famine + pestilences vs. mouth almost closed + earthquakes vs. quaking (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
thief vs. robbers + houses vs. into the city (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
east + west + “four winds” + “bridegrooms and the brides” (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 and Matt 25:1 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
nursing babies vs. child sucking at breast (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 6,3,203)
Zach: murdered between the temple and the altar vs. in the middle of the temple, and slew him (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343)
two + died + crucified + (one survives) “taken down” (by Joseph)(Luke 23:50-53 linked to Luke 23:32-33 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to Life of Flavius Josephus 75)
John: evil vs. wicked + condemned (but lives in) prison + Iscariot vs. Sicarii +
Simon: cutting himself with stones vs. stone-cutters + condemned + death vs. slain (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)

PARALLELS - NAMES AND LOCATIONS
“Lake of Gennesaret” (Luke 5:1-10 + Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 463)
Jesus and his apostles vs. Jesus and his party (Luke 5:1-10 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 467)
Chorazin produces the Coracin fish (Luke 5:10 linked to Matt 11:21 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 520-527)
John (Luke 7:33 + Wars of the Jews 4, 7, 389)
Gadara (Luke 8:26-30 + WOTJ 4, 7, 413)
Mary (Luke 22:19 linked to Luke 2:34 + WOTJ 6, 3, 201-209)
Jesus (Luke 23:46 + WOTJ 6, 5, 298-315)
Zechariah, son of Berechiah vs. Zacharias the son of Baruch (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343)
Joseph of Arimathea vs. Josephus bar Matthias (Luke 23:50-53 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to Life of Flavius Josephus 75)
John (disciple whom Jesus loved) + Simon (Peter) (Luke 24:16, 37 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 7, 10, 418)
Simon bar Jonas vs. Simon bar Gioras

PARALLELS - CONCEPTUAL
Son sent by father (Luke 4:42-43 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 446)
Taking the lead + reassurance (Luke 5:1-10 linked to Matt. 4:19 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 483-484)
fish vs. attempted to swim + began to sink vs. drowning (Luke 5:1-10 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 520-527)
demon vs. tyrannize and wickedest (Luke 7:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 7, 389 linked to WOTJ 7, 6, 185)
Legion vs. too small for an army, and too many for a gang of thieves (WOTJ 4, 7, 408)
demons entering swine vs. running together to a certain village and arming many young men, i.e. one group infecting another (Luke 8:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 8, 420-421)
On to Jerusalem - the messengers are sent ahead (Luke 9:52 vs. WOTJ 5, 1, 40)
Human Passover lamb (Luke 22:19 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6, 3, 201-209 linked to other passages)
houses on fire - unable to enter nor retrieve cloths (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
Caesar and the Roman army coming down and killing many Jews (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 and Dan 7:13 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
Dead bodies underground with a foul smell (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)
Martyrs death into a “proper place” following Jesus’ death (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)
Doubt in their Lord’s identity (Luke 24:16, 37 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 7, 10, 418)

Code:
Luke 4:42-43                good news (euaggelion) .. God .. I have been sent (Jesus)      
                            Sent away his son Titus ..                     WOTJ 3,9,446 + 3,10,503
                            good news (euaggelion)
Luke 5:1-10                 Lake of Gennesaret .. He (Jesus) .. Simon .. fish ..
                            boats .. began to sink .. Simon Peter .. Do not be afraid .. Catch men
Matt 4:19                   Follow Me .. fishers of men
     Matt 11:21             Chorazin (Galilean fishing village/peoples)                  
                            lake of Gennesaret .. Jesus and his party..    WOTJ 3,10,463-484, 520-527
                            produces the Coracin fish ..
                            vessels .. Romans caught them ..
                            drowning .. attempted to swim .. I shall go into danger first ..
                            Do not you therefore desert me
Luke 6:1-11                 Sabbath .. right hand
                            Seventh day .. right hands                     WOTJ 4,2,92-104
Luke 7:33, 8:26-30          John .. has a demon .. Gadarenes .. Legion
                            John .. beginning to tyrannize .. wickedest .. WOTJ 4,7,389,408,413
                            too small for an army, and too many for a gang of thieves .. Gadara
                            John ... filled the entire countryside  WOTJ 7,8,263
                            with ten thousand instances of wickedness  
                            Demons ... are no other than            WOTJ 7,6,185
                            the spirits of the wicked
Luke 8:33                   demons went out of the man and entered the swine ..
                            herd ran violently .. into the lake
                            they ran together to a certain village ..      WOTJ 4,8,420-421,425,434
                            great multitude of young men, arming them ..
                            wild beasts rushed .. into the current
Luke 9:18(Matt 16:19), 9:52 bound .. loosed .. He steadfastly set His face
                            to go to Jerusalem, and sent messengers before
                            loose .. bound .. ordered the rest to meet him WOTJ 4,10,628-629 + 5,1,40
                            at Jerusalem, marched out
Luke 11:29, 12:52, 13:7-9   the crowds were increasing .. divided .. three .. two ..
                            tree .. fruit .. cut it down
                            The Jews became still more and more in number  WOTJ 5,2,78 + 5,3,105,107
                            .. divided .. three .. two .. cut down .. fruit trees
Luke 14:28-32, 19:40        intending to build a tower .. conditions of peace .. stones .. cry out
                            might make an impression upon the walls        WOTJ 5,6,258-261,272
                            .. build .. tower .. terms of peace .. stone .. cried out
Luke 19:43-44               build an embankment around you ..
                            close you in .. and your children
                            build a wall round about the whole city ..     WOTJ 5,12,499
                            prevent the Jews from coming out
Luke 21:10-11, 20           kingdom against kingdom .. earthquakes ..
                            famines .. pestilences .. desolation
     Matt. 24:7, 15         kingdom against kingdom .. famines .. pestilences
                            .. earthquakes .. abomination of desolation
     Dan. 9:27              sacrifice .. cease .. abominations .. desolate
                            sacrifice .. failed                            WOTJ 6, 2, 94
Luke 22:19                  bread .. gave .. this is my body
     Mark 14:22             Jesus took bread .. eat .. this is my body
     John 19:29-33          hyssop .. Jesus .. dead .. they did not break his legs
     Luke 2:34-35           Mary .. his Mother .. Child .. pierce through your own soul
     Exodus 12:9, 12:21-22  roasted .. with its legs .. Passover lamb .. hyssop
                            Mary .. Hyssop .. famine .. pierced            WOTJ 6,3,201-209
                            through her very bowels .. slew her son .. roasted him ..
                            eat .. half of him .. saved a .. portion (splanchon)
                            siege .. Jerusalem ..                   WOTJ 6,9,420-421
                            feast of unleavened bread .. famine
                            Jews .. besieged .. famine                     Severus, Sacred History 2.30
                            .. eating .. human bodies
Luke 23:46                  Jesus .. gave up the ghost
     Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44  Jesus spoke .. woe .. Woe .. Woe .. Woe ..
                            Woe .. Woe .. Woe .. Woe

                            Zechariah, son of Berechiah ..
                            murdered between the temple and the altar

                            the temple .. Jesus said ..  
                            not one stone shall be left here upon another

                            sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?
                            will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many

                            will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes

                            many false prophets will rise up and deceive many

                            Let him .. on the housetop not .. take anything out of his house
                            .. not go back to get his clothes.

                            woe to those who are pregnant .. nursing babies .. lightning comes ..
                            east .. west .. coming of the Son of Man

                            wherever the carcass is .. eagles will be gathered together.
                            Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven ..
                            will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet .. four winds

                            the thief would come .. house to be broken into

     Matt 25:1              bridegroom and the bride.
     Dan 7:13               Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven!        
                            THE HOLY HOUSE ..                              WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315  
                            THE SIGNS THAT PRECEDED THIS DESTRUCTION
                            many ..  worn away by the famine .. mouths almost closed
                            multitude of the robbers .. into the city
                            round about the holy house, burnt all those places ..
                            money .. garments .. precious goods reposited
                            God commanded them .. great number of false prophets ..
                            impose on the people
                            chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor
                            were seen running about among the clouds
                            felt a quaking
                            Jesus .. to cry aloud
                            east .. west .. four winds
                            .. bridegrooms and the brides
                            took up the man .. number of severe stripes ..
                            Woe, woe .. uttered .. Woe, woe .. Woe, woe ..
                            Woe, woe.. gave up the ghost
                            Zacharias the son of Baruch ..          WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343  
                            in the middle of the temple, and slew him
                            child sucking at her breast             WOTJ 6,3,203
Luke 23:50-53               Joseph .. from Arimathea .. body of Jesus .. took it down
     Luke 23:32-33          two .. death .. crucified
                            crucified .. taken down (by             Life of Flavius Josephus 75
                            Josephus bar Matthias) .. two died
Luke 23:56, 24:12           prepared spices and fragrant oils .. Peter ran to the tomb .. stooping down

     Mark 5:1-5             man with an unclean spirit .. tombs .. cutting himself with stones

     Mark 8:28-29           two demon-possessed men .. tombs

     John 6:70-71           one is a devil .. Simon the Iscariot

     John 21:18-24          another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go

                            kind of death .. to glorify God .. Follow me .. Peter

                            disciple whom Jesus loved .. it is my will that he remains

     Luke 22:31-31          Peter .. ready to go both to prison and to death      

     Matt 16:22-25          Peter .. Satan .. Jesus told his diciples ..
                            take up his cross and follow me

     Luke 23:26             Simon .. cross, for him to carry it behind Jesus

     Gal 2:11               Cephas (Simon) .. condemned

     John 5:26-29           all who are in the graves ..

                            evil .. resurrection of condemnation

                            search .. under ground ..                      WOTJ 6,9,429-434
                            ill savor of the dead bodies .. Simon .. slain ..

                            John condemned to perpetual imprisonment

                            John .. Sicarii .. wickedness           WOTJ 7,8,263

                            Simon .. among .. stone-cutters         WOTJ 7,2,26

                            Simon drawn into a proper place         WOTJ 7,5,154
Luke 24:16, 37              But their eyes were kept from recognising him ..
                            supposed they had seen a spirit
     Matt. 28:17            When they saw Him, they worshiped Him, but some doubted
     Mark 16:12             he appeared in another form
     John 21:4              the disciples did not know that it was Jesus
                            they could not get any one of them ..          WOTJ 7,10,418
                            to confess, that Caesar was their lord

Do you get part 1? Colour-coded here:
http://www.caesarsmessiahproven.com/summary.htm



http://tomverenna.wordpress.com/2012/09/...ent-jesus/


**UPDATE 10-9-13**

Since this “documentary” first appeared, it seems that Mr. Atwill is again trying to profit off the ignorance of others. Now, self-styled as an ‘American Biblical scholar”, Mr. Atwill is peddling his book of lies and misleading theories to those in the UK. This nonsense does not deserve another post; but I will update this one because it can’t go along unopposed.

First, and let me be clear, nothing Joe Atwill has written is ‘conclusive’. In order for it to be conclusive, it would have to surmount all arguments against it. Unfortunately for him, he fails to grasp even basic knowledge about the subject. For example, he makes the rather bizarre claim that:

“In fact he [Jesus - ed.] may be the only fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. Once those sources are all laid bare, there’s simply nothing left.”

Yet this is simply false. The Hebrew Bible is full of fictional literary characters whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. His hyperbole is bizarre. But even so, is Atwill seriously suggesting that fictional stories cannot be written about historical people or events? Wonder Woman is a highly fictionalized and heroicized literary figure inspired by an actual person, the creator’s wife, Elizabeth Marston. Wonder Woman meets Atwill’s classification as a “fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources.”

So it might be argued that maybe he was referring to ancient literature, but even then he is ignorant of basic figures that anyone with a minutiae of Classical education can speak upon. In ancient literature, the figure and legendary king of Sparta, Lycurgus, is entirely mythicized in literature yet may have been a real person (scholarship is split on this). The mythological tale of Gilgamesh, who we have no actual historical information on, is considered to be a historical figure and ancient king by most leading Sumerologists and yet his entire life story is one of our earliest extant written sources and one of our earliest written myths period. The biographies of Plutarch are propagandist fantasies of his about the lives of historical people like Alexander the Great (mixed in with purely fictional figures like Romulus).

This should be enough to make my point; Atwill makes claims that cannot be supported when those with some basic knowledge of the subject explore the claims further. This is a serious flaw in Atwill’s work. He makes claims but doesn’t seem to realize how ridiculous they actually are; it is that scholars find his work “outlandish”. It is just plain wrong. I mean it is still crazy talk, but it is more that his whole premise is wrong.

For example, like all sensationalist crap-dealers, Mr, Atwill claims to have discovered the secret, super-dooper, hidden code in the text. Amazing! A self-proclaimed “Biblical scholar”, with no formal training in the material, has used his magic decoder ring and stumbled upon a code! How clever of him. He states:

Atwill’s most intriguing discovery came to him while he was studying “Wars of the Jews” by Josephus [the only surviving first-person historical account of first-century Judea] alongside the New Testament. “I started to notice a sequence of parallels between the two texts,” he recounts. “Although it’s been recognised by Christian scholars for centuries that the prophesies of Jesus appear to be fulfilled by what Josephus wrote about in the First Jewish-Roman war, I was seeing dozens more. What seems to have eluded many scholars is that the sequence of events and locations of Jesus ministry are more or less the same as the sequence of events and locations of the military campaign of [Emperor] Titus Flavius as described by Josephus. This is clear evidence of a deliberately constructed pattern. The biography of Jesus is actually constructed, tip to stern, on prior stories, but especially on the biography of a Roman Caesar.”

First, and let me be clear, are there striking similarities between Josephus and the Gospel of Luke? Yes, there are. Steven Mason, a real scholar, has published an entire volume on the subject called Josephus and the New Testament. Richard Carrier has also written on the subject of the parallels between Josephus and Luke-Acts. Joel Watts, an actual student of Biblical Studies who has done graduate work in the field (unlike Mr. Atwill), has written an academically-published book on some interesting mimetic elements between Mark and Josephus.

The difference between what these scholars have written and what Mr. Atwill have written is threefold: (a) all of them have academic training in Greek, (b) all of them published through an academic press (Carrier is the exception, but he has published academically and is qualified on the subject), © None of them make the illogical leap that similarities between Josephus (a Jew) and the Gospels (written by Jewish authors) mean that the Romans did it. In fact it is the same misguided leap that some evangelicals make about God. “We don’t know, ergo ‘God did it’.” Instead, all of these scholars agree that the most rational reason for these similarities is that the Gospel authors had copies of Josephus, or Josephus had copies of the Gospels. This sort of interplay of texts is not new in the ancient world.

Second, Notwithstanding this damning evidence against him, Atwill’s premise is quite narrowed and simplistic, demonstrating a critical lack of understanding of the cultural dynamics of Judea in the first century.

There exist over 30 Jewish sects that we know of from the first century, and have some basic understanding of their belief structures. There are some dozens more we just know by name. On top of that, we have to conclude there are perhaps dozens, if not hundreds, more Jewish sects of which we simply have no record. What is so interesting is how incredibly different each sect is from each other.

Despite Atwill’s unlearned claim that the Jewish people were expecting a ‘Warrior messiah’, in truth there is no universal version of a messiah. Even among the same sect, over time, the concept of their messiah would change. In the Dead Sea Scrolls, which Mr. Atwill seems to think he knows so well, the language of the messiah and his purpose changes (in fact at one point, we see two distinct messiahs at once–one a priestly messiah and another a kingly messiah). Some sects did not even expect a messiah at all. Any of the numerous works on messianic expectations published in the last two decades utterly annihilates any claim that Atwill is making about some uniformity in Jewish thought and ritual.

Even logically, his analysis is flawed. If this tactic was used against the Jews, why didn’t the Romans use it against an even greater threat: the Gauls?! The Jewish people were never as serious a threat to the Empire as much as the Gauls were–who sacked Rome twice and destroyed Legions. Atwill never seems to consider how basically incompetent his thesis is in this regard. If the Romans had such success against the Jews using this “psychological warfare” (anachronism alert!! Danger! Danger!), why don’t we see this happening against all of their enemies? It is just so beyond absurd. It really is.

Here is the thing; it may be that Mr. Atwill is completely clueless about this. Maybe he isn’t just trying to scam everyone and sell a bunch of books to a group of gullible people. Maybe he legitimately hasn’t read anything relevant on this subject or any recent scholarship on it.

But that is troubling–would you want to read a science book written by a layperson who hasn’t read a single relevant scientific study? Would you pick up a book on engineering written by someone with a background in computer science, and trust that book enough to build a house based upon its designs? I hope not. I sincerely hope that no one would agree to trust either of these books.

This is the issue with Mr. Atwill. He may sincerely believe he has discovered the secret code off a cereal box with his 3-D glasses he found inside; that doesn’t make him an expert in the subject, it doesn’t make him knowledgeable enough to give lectures on it. It certainly does not make him credible.

Mr. Atwill is just like all the other amateur-Scholar-wannabes who refuse to put in the time and effort to earn a degree in the field, who want to advance their pet theories to sell books and dupe you over. He relies on popular media and the ignorance of the layperson to score points rather than publishing in a credible academic journal or publishing academically. He knows he can’t do that, because he has no clue how academics work, how they think, or what they actually argue on the subject. He might as well claim that Jesus lived on Atlantis, which came from Mars. That theory is about as ridiculous as the notion that Rome invented Jesus.

"He relies on popular media and the ignorance of the layperson to score points rather than publishing in a credible academic journal or publishing academically"

Mr Atwill wants to tell the world about something real important. He doesn't need to grovel to the academic world. That's not to say he doesn't respect academia, but this issue is bigger than a bunch of academics flopping their dicks out on a table and arguing over who's got the biggest.
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14-01-2014, 04:11 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(14-01-2014 01:24 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(13-01-2014 07:00 AM)gilius2k14 Wrote:  It's quite easy for the "thinking atheist" to prove Atwill's theory based on the evidence he presents, but you first need to at least agree that one book is based upon another (proof part 1). You then need to be able to understand the satire (proof part 2). It can then be proven that both books were authored by the same source (proof part 3): Flavians, who, in the process, invented Jesus and Christianity.

PARALLELS - VERBATIM / NEAR-VERBATIM
“good news” euaggelion in Greek (Luke 4:43 + Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 503)
boats vs. vessels + catch men vs. Romans caught them (Luke 5:1-10 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 520-527)
Sabbath + “right hand” vs. Seventh day + “right hands” (Luke 6:1-11 vs. WOTJ 4, 2, 92-104)
herd ran violently vs. wild beasts rushed + “into the” lake vs. “into the” current (Luke 8:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 8, 425, 434)
loose + bound (Luke 9:18 substituted by Matt. 16:19 + WOTJ 4, 10, 628-629)
the crowds were increasing vs. The Jews became still more and more in number (Luke 11:29 vs. WOTJ 5, 2, 78)
divided .. three .. two (Luke 12:52 + WOTJ 5, 3, 105)
“Cut down” fruit trees (Luke 13:7-9 + WOTJ 5, 3, 107)
“build a tower” (Luke 14:28-30 + WOTJ 5, 6, 258-260)
conditions “of peace” vs. terms “of peace” (Luke 14:32 vs. WOTJ 5, 6, 261)
stones “cry out” (Luke 19:40 + WOTJ 5, 6, 272)
build a wall around the Jews (Luke 19:43-44 + WOTJ 5, 12, 499)
sacrifice cease vs. sacrifice failed (Luke 21:10-11, 20 linked to Dan. 9:27 vs. WOTJ 6, 2, 94)
temple vs. HOLY HOUSE + signs + not one stone left vs. DESTRUCTION (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs./+ WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
(Jesus): woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + woe + “give up the ghost” (was also crucified and scourged) (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
in Christ’s name vs. God commanded them + false prophets + deceived many vs. imposed on the people (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
famine + pestilences vs. mouth almost closed + earthquakes vs. quaking (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
thief vs. robbers + houses vs. into the city (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
east + west + “four winds” + “bridegrooms and the brides” (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 and Matt 25:1 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
nursing babies vs. child sucking at breast (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 6,3,203)
Zach: murdered between the temple and the altar vs. in the middle of the temple, and slew him (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343)
two + died + crucified + (one survives) “taken down” (by Joseph)(Luke 23:50-53 linked to Luke 23:32-33 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to Life of Flavius Josephus 75)
John: evil vs. wicked + condemned (but lives in) prison + Iscariot vs. Sicarii +
Simon: cutting himself with stones vs. stone-cutters + condemned + death vs. slain (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)

PARALLELS - NAMES AND LOCATIONS
“Lake of Gennesaret” (Luke 5:1-10 + Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 463)
Jesus and his apostles vs. Jesus and his party (Luke 5:1-10 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 467)
Chorazin produces the Coracin fish (Luke 5:10 linked to Matt 11:21 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 520-527)
John (Luke 7:33 + Wars of the Jews 4, 7, 389)
Gadara (Luke 8:26-30 + WOTJ 4, 7, 413)
Mary (Luke 22:19 linked to Luke 2:34 + WOTJ 6, 3, 201-209)
Jesus (Luke 23:46 + WOTJ 6, 5, 298-315)
Zechariah, son of Berechiah vs. Zacharias the son of Baruch (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343)
Joseph of Arimathea vs. Josephus bar Matthias (Luke 23:50-53 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315 linked to Life of Flavius Josephus 75)
John (disciple whom Jesus loved) + Simon (Peter) (Luke 24:16, 37 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 7, 10, 418)
Simon bar Jonas vs. Simon bar Gioras

PARALLELS - CONCEPTUAL
Son sent by father (Luke 4:42-43 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 446)
Taking the lead + reassurance (Luke 5:1-10 linked to Matt. 4:19 vs. WOTJ 3, 10, 483-484)
fish vs. attempted to swim + began to sink vs. drowning (Luke 5:1-10 vs. Wars of the Jews 3, 10, 520-527)
demon vs. tyrannize and wickedest (Luke 7:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 7, 389 linked to WOTJ 7, 6, 185)
Legion vs. too small for an army, and too many for a gang of thieves (WOTJ 4, 7, 408)
demons entering swine vs. running together to a certain village and arming many young men, i.e. one group infecting another (Luke 8:33 vs. WOTJ 4, 8, 420-421)
On to Jerusalem - the messengers are sent ahead (Luke 9:52 vs. WOTJ 5, 1, 40)
Human Passover lamb (Luke 22:19 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6, 3, 201-209 linked to other passages)
houses on fire - unable to enter nor retrieve cloths (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
Caesar and the Roman army coming down and killing many Jews (Luke 23:46 linked to Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44 and Dan 7:13 vs. WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315)
Dead bodies underground with a foul smell (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)
Martyrs death into a “proper place” following Jesus’ death (Luke 23:56, 24:12 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 6,9,429-434 linked to other passages)
Doubt in their Lord’s identity (Luke 24:16, 37 linked to other passages vs. WOTJ 7, 10, 418)

Code:
Luke 4:42-43                good news (euaggelion) .. God .. I have been sent (Jesus)      
                            Sent away his son Titus ..                     WOTJ 3,9,446 + 3,10,503
                            good news (euaggelion)
Luke 5:1-10                 Lake of Gennesaret .. He (Jesus) .. Simon .. fish ..
                            boats .. began to sink .. Simon Peter .. Do not be afraid .. Catch men
Matt 4:19                   Follow Me .. fishers of men
     Matt 11:21             Chorazin (Galilean fishing village/peoples)                  
                            lake of Gennesaret .. Jesus and his party..    WOTJ 3,10,463-484, 520-527
                            produces the Coracin fish ..
                            vessels .. Romans caught them ..
                            drowning .. attempted to swim .. I shall go into danger first ..
                            Do not you therefore desert me
Luke 6:1-11                 Sabbath .. right hand
                            Seventh day .. right hands                     WOTJ 4,2,92-104
Luke 7:33, 8:26-30          John .. has a demon .. Gadarenes .. Legion
                            John .. beginning to tyrannize .. wickedest .. WOTJ 4,7,389,408,413
                            too small for an army, and too many for a gang of thieves .. Gadara
                            John ... filled the entire countryside  WOTJ 7,8,263
                            with ten thousand instances of wickedness  
                            Demons ... are no other than            WOTJ 7,6,185
                            the spirits of the wicked
Luke 8:33                   demons went out of the man and entered the swine ..
                            herd ran violently .. into the lake
                            they ran together to a certain village ..      WOTJ 4,8,420-421,425,434
                            great multitude of young men, arming them ..
                            wild beasts rushed .. into the current
Luke 9:18(Matt 16:19), 9:52 bound .. loosed .. He steadfastly set His face
                            to go to Jerusalem, and sent messengers before
                            loose .. bound .. ordered the rest to meet him WOTJ 4,10,628-629 + 5,1,40
                            at Jerusalem, marched out
Luke 11:29, 12:52, 13:7-9   the crowds were increasing .. divided .. three .. two ..
                            tree .. fruit .. cut it down
                            The Jews became still more and more in number  WOTJ 5,2,78 + 5,3,105,107
                            .. divided .. three .. two .. cut down .. fruit trees
Luke 14:28-32, 19:40        intending to build a tower .. conditions of peace .. stones .. cry out
                            might make an impression upon the walls        WOTJ 5,6,258-261,272
                            .. build .. tower .. terms of peace .. stone .. cried out
Luke 19:43-44               build an embankment around you ..
                            close you in .. and your children
                            build a wall round about the whole city ..     WOTJ 5,12,499
                            prevent the Jews from coming out
Luke 21:10-11, 20           kingdom against kingdom .. earthquakes ..
                            famines .. pestilences .. desolation
     Matt. 24:7, 15         kingdom against kingdom .. famines .. pestilences
                            .. earthquakes .. abomination of desolation
     Dan. 9:27              sacrifice .. cease .. abominations .. desolate
                            sacrifice .. failed                            WOTJ 6, 2, 94
Luke 22:19                  bread .. gave .. this is my body
     Mark 14:22             Jesus took bread .. eat .. this is my body
     John 19:29-33          hyssop .. Jesus .. dead .. they did not break his legs
     Luke 2:34-35           Mary .. his Mother .. Child .. pierce through your own soul
     Exodus 12:9, 12:21-22  roasted .. with its legs .. Passover lamb .. hyssop
                            Mary .. Hyssop .. famine .. pierced            WOTJ 6,3,201-209
                            through her very bowels .. slew her son .. roasted him ..
                            eat .. half of him .. saved a .. portion (splanchon)
                            siege .. Jerusalem ..                   WOTJ 6,9,420-421
                            feast of unleavened bread .. famine
                            Jews .. besieged .. famine                     Severus, Sacred History 2.30
                            .. eating .. human bodies
Luke 23:46                  Jesus .. gave up the ghost
     Matt 23:1-39, 24:1-44  Jesus spoke .. woe .. Woe .. Woe .. Woe ..
                            Woe .. Woe .. Woe .. Woe

                            Zechariah, son of Berechiah ..
                            murdered between the temple and the altar

                            the temple .. Jesus said ..  
                            not one stone shall be left here upon another

                            sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?
                            will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many

                            will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes

                            many false prophets will rise up and deceive many

                            Let him .. on the housetop not .. take anything out of his house
                            .. not go back to get his clothes.

                            woe to those who are pregnant .. nursing babies .. lightning comes ..
                            east .. west .. coming of the Son of Man

                            wherever the carcass is .. eagles will be gathered together.
                            Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven ..
                            will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet .. four winds

                            the thief would come .. house to be broken into

     Matt 25:1              bridegroom and the bride.
     Dan 7:13               Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven!        
                            THE HOLY HOUSE ..                              WOTJ 6,5,271-287, 298-315  
                            THE SIGNS THAT PRECEDED THIS DESTRUCTION
                            many ..  worn away by the famine .. mouths almost closed
                            multitude of the robbers .. into the city
                            round about the holy house, burnt all those places ..
                            money .. garments .. precious goods reposited
                            God commanded them .. great number of false prophets ..
                            impose on the people
                            chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor
                            were seen running about among the clouds
                            felt a quaking
                            Jesus .. to cry aloud
                            east .. west .. four winds
                            .. bridegrooms and the brides
                            took up the man .. number of severe stripes ..
                            Woe, woe .. uttered .. Woe, woe .. Woe, woe ..
                            Woe, woe.. gave up the ghost
                            Zacharias the son of Baruch ..          WOTJ 4,5,334-335, 341-343  
                            in the middle of the temple, and slew him
                            child sucking at her breast             WOTJ 6,3,203
Luke 23:50-53               Joseph .. from Arimathea .. body of Jesus .. took it down
     Luke 23:32-33          two .. death .. crucified
                            crucified .. taken down (by             Life of Flavius Josephus 75
                            Josephus bar Matthias) .. two died
Luke 23:56, 24:12           prepared spices and fragrant oils .. Peter ran to the tomb .. stooping down

     Mark 5:1-5             man with an unclean spirit .. tombs .. cutting himself with stones

     Mark 8:28-29           two demon-possessed men .. tombs

     John 6:70-71           one is a devil .. Simon the Iscariot

     John 21:18-24          another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go

                            kind of death .. to glorify God .. Follow me .. Peter

                            disciple whom Jesus loved .. it is my will that he remains

     Luke 22:31-31          Peter .. ready to go both to prison and to death      

     Matt 16:22-25          Peter .. Satan .. Jesus told his diciples ..
                            take up his cross and follow me

     Luke 23:26             Simon .. cross, for him to carry it behind Jesus

     Gal 2:11               Cephas (Simon) .. condemned

     John 5:26-29           all who are in the graves ..

                            evil .. resurrection of condemnation

                            search .. under ground ..                      WOTJ 6,9,429-434
                            ill savor of the dead bodies .. Simon .. slain ..

                            John condemned to perpetual imprisonment

                            John .. Sicarii .. wickedness           WOTJ 7,8,263

                            Simon .. among .. stone-cutters         WOTJ 7,2,26

                            Simon drawn into a proper place         WOTJ 7,5,154
Luke 24:16, 37              But their eyes were kept from recognising him ..
                            supposed they had seen a spirit
     Matt. 28:17            When they saw Him, they worshiped Him, but some doubted
     Mark 16:12             he appeared in another form
     John 21:4              the disciples did not know that it was Jesus
                            they could not get any one of them ..          WOTJ 7,10,418
                            to confess, that Caesar was their lord

Do you get part 1? Colour-coded here:
http://www.caesarsmessiahproven.com/summary.htm



http://tomverenna.wordpress.com/2012/09/...ent-jesus/


**UPDATE 10-9-13**

Since this “documentary” first appeared, it seems that Mr. Atwill is again trying to profit off the ignorance of others. Now, self-styled as an ‘American Biblical scholar”, Mr. Atwill is peddling his book of lies and misleading theories to those in the UK. This nonsense does not deserve another post; but I will update this one because it can’t go along unopposed.

First, and let me be clear, nothing Joe Atwill has written is ‘conclusive’. In order for it to be conclusive, it would have to surmount all arguments against it. Unfortunately for him, he fails to grasp even basic knowledge about the subject. For example, he makes the rather bizarre claim that:

“In fact he [Jesus - ed.] may be the only fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. Once those sources are all laid bare, there’s simply nothing left.”

Yet this is simply false. The Hebrew Bible is full of fictional literary characters whose entire life story can be traced to other sources. His hyperbole is bizarre. But even so, is Atwill seriously suggesting that fictional stories cannot be written about historical people or events? Wonder Woman is a highly fictionalized and heroicized literary figure inspired by an actual person, the creator’s wife, Elizabeth Marston. Wonder Woman meets Atwill’s classification as a “fictional character in literature whose entire life story can be traced to other sources.”

So it might be argued that maybe he was referring to ancient literature, but even then he is ignorant of basic figures that anyone with a minutiae of Classical education can speak upon. In ancient literature, the figure and legendary king of Sparta, Lycurgus, is entirely mythicized in literature yet may have been a real person (scholarship is split on this). The mythological tale of Gilgamesh, who we have no actual historical information on, is considered to be a historical figure and ancient king by most leading Sumerologists and yet his entire life story is one of our earliest extant written sources and one of our earliest written myths period. The biographies of Plutarch are propagandist fantasies of his about the lives of historical people like Alexander the Great (mixed in with purely fictional figures like Romulus).

This should be enough to make my point; Atwill makes claims that cannot be supported when those with some basic knowledge of the subject explore the claims further. This is a serious flaw in Atwill’s work. He makes claims but doesn’t seem to realize how ridiculous they actually are; it is that scholars find his work “outlandish”. It is just plain wrong. I mean it is still crazy talk, but it is more that his whole premise is wrong.

For example, like all sensationalist crap-dealers, Mr, Atwill claims to have discovered the secret, super-dooper, hidden code in the text. Amazing! A self-proclaimed “Biblical scholar”, with no formal training in the material, has used his magic decoder ring and stumbled upon a code! How clever of him. He states:

Atwill’s most intriguing discovery came to him while he was studying “Wars of the Jews” by Josephus [the only surviving first-person historical account of first-century Judea] alongside the New Testament. “I started to notice a sequence of parallels between the two texts,” he recounts. “Although it’s been recognised by Christian scholars for centuries that the prophesies of Jesus appear to be fulfilled by what Josephus wrote about in the First Jewish-Roman war, I was seeing dozens more. What seems to have eluded many scholars is that the sequence of events and locations of Jesus ministry are more or less the same as the sequence of events and locations of the military campaign of [Emperor] Titus Flavius as described by Josephus. This is clear evidence of a deliberately constructed pattern. The biography of Jesus is actually constructed, tip to stern, on prior stories, but especially on the biography of a Roman Caesar.”

First, and let me be clear, are there striking similarities between Josephus and the Gospel of Luke? Yes, there are. Steven Mason, a real scholar, has published an entire volume on the subject called Josephus and the New Testament. Richard Carrier has also written on the subject of the parallels between Josephus and Luke-Acts. Joel Watts, an actual student of Biblical Studies who has done graduate work in the field (unlike Mr. Atwill), has written an academically-published book on some interesting mimetic elements between Mark and Josephus.

The difference between what these scholars have written and what Mr. Atwill have written is threefold: (a) all of them have academic training in Greek, (b) all of them published through an academic press (Carrier is the exception, but he has published academically and is qualified on the subject), © None of them make the illogical leap that similarities between Josephus (a Jew) and the Gospels (written by Jewish authors) mean that the Romans did it. In fact it is the same misguided leap that some evangelicals make about God. “We don’t know, ergo ‘God did it’.” Instead, all of these scholars agree that the most rational reason for these similarities is that the Gospel authors had copies of Josephus, or Josephus had copies of the Gospels. This sort of interplay of texts is not new in the ancient world.

Second, Notwithstanding this damning evidence against him, Atwill’s premise is quite narrowed and simplistic, demonstrating a critical lack of understanding of the cultural dynamics of Judea in the first century.

There exist over 30 Jewish sects that we know of from the first century, and have some basic understanding of their belief structures. There are some dozens more we just know by name. On top of that, we have to conclude there are perhaps dozens, if not hundreds, more Jewish sects of which we simply have no record. What is so interesting is how incredibly different each sect is from each other.

Despite Atwill’s unlearned claim that the Jewish people were expecting a ‘Warrior messiah’, in truth there is no universal version of a messiah. Even among the same sect, over time, the concept of their messiah would change. In the Dead Sea Scrolls, which Mr. Atwill seems to think he knows so well, the language of the messiah and his purpose changes (in fact at one point, we see two distinct messiahs at once–one a priestly messiah and another a kingly messiah). Some sects did not even expect a messiah at all. Any of the numerous works on messianic expectations published in the last two decades utterly annihilates any claim that Atwill is making about some uniformity in Jewish thought and ritual.

Even logically, his analysis is flawed. If this tactic was used against the Jews, why didn’t the Romans use it against an even greater threat: the Gauls?! The Jewish people were never as serious a threat to the Empire as much as the Gauls were–who sacked Rome twice and destroyed Legions. Atwill never seems to consider how basically incompetent his thesis is in this regard. If the Romans had such success against the Jews using this “psychological warfare” (anachronism alert!! Danger! Danger!), why don’t we see this happening against all of their enemies? It is just so beyond absurd. It really is.

Here is the thing; it may be that Mr. Atwill is completely clueless about this. Maybe he isn’t just trying to scam everyone and sell a bunch of books to a group of gullible people. Maybe he legitimately hasn’t read anything relevant on this subject or any recent scholarship on it.

But that is troubling–would you want to read a science book written by a layperson who hasn’t read a single relevant scientific study? Would you pick up a book on engineering written by someone with a background in computer science, and trust that book enough to build a house based upon its designs? I hope not. I sincerely hope that no one would agree to trust either of these books.

This is the issue with Mr. Atwill. He may sincerely believe he has discovered the secret code off a cereal box with his 3-D glasses he found inside; that doesn’t make him an expert in the subject, it doesn’t make him knowledgeable enough to give lectures on it. It certainly does not make him credible.

Mr. Atwill is just like all the other amateur-Scholar-wannabes who refuse to put in the time and effort to earn a degree in the field, who want to advance their pet theories to sell books and dupe you over. He relies on popular media and the ignorance of the layperson to score points rather than publishing in a credible academic journal or publishing academically. He knows he can’t do that, because he has no clue how academics work, how they think, or what they actually argue on the subject. He might as well claim that Jesus lived on Atlantis, which came from Mars. That theory is about as ridiculous as the notion that Rome invented Jesus.
Only one part of that outdated critique addresses the actual evidence presented by Atwill:
Quote:First, and let me be clear, are there striking similarities between Josephus and the Gospel of Luke? Yes, there are.

None of them make the illogical leap that similarities between Josephus (a Jew) and the Gospels (written by Jewish authors) mean that the Romans did it.
"Striking similarities" is an understatement. Practically the whole of the gospels were written as a pre-configuration of Titus. Just how similar they are can be seen from the 40+ parallels I quoted, which the critique doesn't address directly.

Other scholars have noticed similarities, yes, but Atwill was the first realise a system of parallels existed intertextually/interactively between the gospels and Josephus via matching verbatim, names, locations, concepts together with conundrums.

By problem solving it becomes clear that the Flavians lined up all 40+ parallels in a "barcode" deliberately, by design, to provide the readers of both the gospels and Josephus with a layer of additional information, including satire, via the method of Typology--and also to "big up" Titus. Why else have they lined up the 40+ interactive/intertextual parallels with accompanying satire? (unless you don't see that)

And more parallels exist in the original Greek than they do as English translations.

The next logical step then leads to the proof that the same source authored both works. This is only a "leap of faith" for those who are incapable of understanding patterns, a certain type of dark humour, and making sense of the evidence, etc.
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14-01-2014, 04:20 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(14-01-2014 02:40 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Ok....here we go again....

Ek.....internet friend, fellow atheist....please read the damn book for yourself, and come to your own conclusions. Is that too much to ask?


I will read it myself, after Mr. Atwill gets around to citing his sources and getting his work peer reviewed by those actually trained in Greek. Is that too much to ask?



(14-01-2014 02:40 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "Second, Notwithstanding this damning evidence against him, Atwill’s premise is quite narrowed and simplistic, demonstrating a critical lack of understanding of the cultural dynamics of Judea in the first century.

There exist over 30 Jewish sects that we know of from the first century, and have some basic understanding of their belief structures. There are some dozens more we just know by name. On top of that, we have to conclude there are perhaps dozens, if not hundreds, more Jewish sects of which we simply have no record. What is so interesting is how incredibly different each sect is from each other. Despite Atwill’s unlearned claim that the Jewish people were expecting a ‘Warrior messiah’, in truth there is no universal version of a messiah. Even among the same sect, over time, the concept of their messiah would change."

WRONG!!!

You forgot the very next sentences.

In the Dead Sea Scrolls, which Mr. Atwill seems to think he knows so well, the language of the messiah and his purpose changes (in fact at one point, we see two distinct messiahs at once–one a priestly messiah and another a kingly messiah). Some sects did not even expect a messiah at all. Any of the numerous works on messianic expectations published in the last two decades utterly annihilates any claim that Atwill is making about some uniformity in Jewish thought and ritual.


(14-01-2014 02:40 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Atwill doesn't comment about different Jewish cults; that is not really what his book is about. Yes, the Messiah meant different things to different people. The fact remains that the majority of ordinary Jews dreamed about a political Messiah. My evidence?

1.“The Jews discovered a fierce impatience of the dominion of Rome, which repeatedly broke out in the most furious massacres and insurrections…and we are tempted to applaud the severe retaliation which was exercised by the arms of the legions against a race of fanatics, whose dire and credulous superstition seemed to render them the implacable enemies not only of the Roman government, but of human kind. The enthusiasm of the Jews was supported by the opinion, that it was unlawful for them to pay taxes to an idolatrous master; and by the flattering promise which they derived from their ancient oracles, that a conquering Messiah would soon arise, destined to break their fetters, and to invest the favorites of heaven with the empire of the earth.”
(Edward Gibbon)

The Jewish expectation for a political leader, (a Messiah or "savior") had been introduced in parts of Isaiah, which was probably written during or just after the Babylonian captivity. It refers to the restoration of the nation of Israel. (http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm). In Yeshua’s day there was a widespread hope among Jews that a Messiah would lead the people in a revolt to establish the “kingdom of God,” in which Jews would be in charge and the world’s wealth would be distributed evenly, not condensed in Roman hands and aristocratic families.
2.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mes...laimants).

3.Josephus, writing in the late first century, explains why Jews were so inspired by these patriotic dreams:
“That which chiefly excited them to war was an ambiguous prophecy, which was also found in the sacred books, that at that time someone, within their country should arise, that should obtain the empire of the whole world. For this they had spoken of one of their nation; and many wise men were deceived with the interpretation” (Josephus, Wars of the Jews.)
Two secular Roman historians say something similar:
4. “There had spread all over the Orient an old and established belief, that it was fated for men coming from Judea to rule the world.” (Seutonius, Life of Vespasian, 4.5.)
5. “The majority [of the Jews] were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judea would go forth men destined to rule the world.” (Tacitus, Histories 5.13.)
Throughout the first century revolutionary groups of zealots led by hopeful messianic leaders commonly formed, promised apocalyptic deliverance, but achieved nothing lasting. The Qumran community, who compiled the Dead Sea Scrolls, was one such group. They had a pathological hatred for the Romans (whom they called the “Kittim.”) They also despised the Sadducees, who they regarded as Rome’s lackeys. After years of Roman domination, they dreamed of a bloody revenge. A part of the Scrolls describes a fantasy of a battle in which the Kittim were crushed:
6. “This shall be a time of salvation for people of God, and age of dominion for all the members of His company, and of everlasting destruction for the company of Satan… The dominion of the Kittim shall come to an end and iniquity shall be vanquished, leaving no remnant for the sons of darkness, there shall be no escape. The sons of righteousness shall shine over all the ends of earth; they shall go on shining until all the seasons of darkness are consumed and, at the season appointed by God, His exalted greatness shall shine eternally to the peace, blessing, glory, and long life of all the sons of light” (http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/scroll...h/07.htm). The leader of the army who led them in this fantasized battle is unequivocally called the “messiah.” They were obviously fanatical and, as things turned out, rather deluded, as neither God nor a successful messiah ever made an appearance.

To be continued.....


Edward Gibbon, Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. Published in 1776.


Why we need to be especially skeptical of everything written prior to the 1950's.


1 - Historians were often, for some reason, more textually naive before the 1950's, trusting what historical texts and primary sources said too much, and trying too hard to make the evidence fit them. The situation has reversed since then, and archaeology is now more important, and multiple corroboration, and other methodological approaches are required (e.g. showing how a claim fits general cultural knowledge, and conceding uncertainty more often than previous historians did, etc.). As a result, a lot of what was argued before 1950 has been refuted or heavily qualified or modified. So you have to check and see in any given case if a claim still stands.

2 - A lot more evidence has come to light. For example: new Arabic texts relating to the history of science; papyrological finds pertaining to the Hellenistic period in Greece, the origins of Christianity, Roman history and economics, Egyptian government and society under Greek and Roman rule, etc.; plus documents recovered from Pompeii and Herculaneum and the Dead Sea and Nag Hammadi, and so on (heck, we're still recovering texts from Oxyrhynchus); etc. This evidence has often changed, sometimes radically, the findings of earlier decades. Since you cannot know in advance what has been revised in light of new evidence, you simply can't assume old works stand as written, and must check more recent work to confirm any conclusions.

3 - Social and cultural history were largely (though not completely) neglected before the 1950's, and when addressed, were approached with the less sophisticated tools of the time. Since then significant advances have been made in sociology, psychology, economics, and anthropology, which have changed the way we understand and study other cultures. This has made a significant impact on the study of the history of religions, of ancient economics, social relations and interactions, background assumptions and worldview studies, and so on. And since these things connect with and affect every historical event in some way, improvements in our understanding of culture and its various facets entail changes in the way we understand and interpret historical texts and events.

4 - Finally (though this list is not comprehensive) the methodology of historians has become more scientific after WWII. That is, historians have become more method-conscious, and more concerned about distinguishing opinion from fact, and causal theory from chronological sequence, and much more concerned with thorough documentation, relying as much as possible on primary evidence, and being very critical when forced to rely on scholarship instead. Citation of sources is more meticulous. For example, before the 1950's you will find a lot of historians making claims to fact that are really the opinions or theories of earlier historians--and often they won't even tell you that.



http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

Lets look at the author, and what they say.

This site is created, written and maintained by Tracey Rich. I do not claim to be a rabbi or an expert on Judaism; I'm just a traditional, observant Jew who has put in a lot of research. I must be doing something right, because one of the rabbis at an "Ask a Rabbi" website routinely copies material from this website! All of the material on this site was created by me, just one individual. There is no corporation or organization behind this site.
http://www.jewfaq.org/author.htm

Not a scholar, not professionally trained, nothing is peer reviewed for accuracy or consistency, a complete lack of any references or citations. Amateur 101.


"Modern scholars suggest that the messianic concept was introduced later in the history of Judaism, during the age of the prophets. They note that the messianic concept is not explicitly mentioned anywhere in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible).

However, traditional Judaism maintains that the messianic idea has always been a part of Judaism. The mashiach is not mentioned explicitly in the Torah, because the Torah was written in terms that all people could understand, and the abstract concept of a distant, spiritual, future reward was beyond the comprehension of some people. However, the Torah contains several references to "the End of Days" (acharit ha-yamim), which is the time of the mashiach; thus, the concept of mashiach was known in the most ancient times."


Fuck our newest and best scholarship from trained professionals, instead lets rely on tradition to trump that shit? Sorry, not impressive. Drinking Beverage


Quote:“There had spread all over the Orient an old and established belief, that it was fated for men coming from Judea to rule the world.” (Seutonius, Life of Vespasian, 4.5.)

5. “The majority [of the Jews] were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judea would go forth men destined to rule the world.” (Tacitus, Histories 5.13.)

Neither is a mention of a messiah, let alone one widely believed in by a majority of Jewish sects. This is a stretch by any means or measurement.


Quote:Throughout the first century revolutionary groups of zealots led by hopeful messianic leaders commonly formed, promised apocalyptic deliverance, but achieved nothing lasting. The Qumran community, who compiled the Dead Sea Scrolls, was one such group. They had a pathological hatred for the Romans (whom they called the “Kittim.”) They also despised the Sadducees, who they regarded as Rome’s lackeys. After years of Roman domination, they dreamed of a bloody revenge. A part of the Scrolls describes a fantasy of a battle in which the Kittim were crushed:

One sect, says nothing of what the majority believed. Once again, even within the Dead Sea Scrolls, their messiah changed!



(14-01-2014 02:59 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  He writes
"Even logically, his analysis is flawed. If this tactic was used against the Jews, why didn’t the Romans use it against an even greater threat: the Gauls?! The Jewish people were never as serious a threat to the Empire as much as the Gauls were–who sacked Rome twice and destroyed Legions."

THIS IS A PATHETIC ARGUMENT.... Do I need to say why? oh, ok, here goes...

Rome always conquered other nations Gods. It was just how they did things. The Jews were unique because they had Scripture and were intensely devoted to it. So Rome wrote their own version of Jewish scripture, which is what became Christianity. Did the Gauls have scripture? I doubt it, and it doesn't matter if they did, it takes nothing away from the theory that this was how Rome used propaganda to deal with the Jews.


Well, first, to be fair, presumably Atwill would not say by the time of Constantine the original plan was still remembered. His scheme seems to presume the plan was forgotten by the 2nd century (due to the inevitable consequence of having tried so hard to keep it a secret).

But secondly, you seem to overlook how the Romans caused the Jewish War precisely by so badly botching their treatment of Jewish religion. Pilate’s disastrous march of the standards and looting of the temple is just the most famous provocation; Josephus documents countless others in the JW, running all the way up to the initiation of the war; Philo also wrote several books on Roman disasters in this regard, necessitating repeated embassies to try and get them to see sense.

Notably, the one smart thing they did (respect Jewish law) was a gift given by treaty for military purposes (it is what Augustus paid for Jewish assistance in the Civil War), not due to social engineering genius. It’s simply what the Jews asked for in return for a military alliance. That treaty then became law under the Romans, which the Romans then frequently flouted and ignored, causing the War.

Thus, this is actually a perfect example of what I’m talking about: the military tactic of trading boons for subservience was right in line with Roman military genius; they used the tactic a lot, to excellent effect. That in this case it resulted in a (sort of) sensible system of respecting local religion was not a conclusion of social ideology, but an accident of military strategy, which is why the Romans never understood its significance to any plan of pacifying the Jews. Were they savvy in social ideology, they would have known how important it was to respect that treaty, precisely because it would be the most effective thing they could ever do to pacify Palestine for good. -Richard Carrier

http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/arch...ment-54433



(14-01-2014 02:59 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "why don’t we see this happening against all of their enemies?"

ALERT ALERT! This commentator knows fuck all about real history!

"Maybe he legitimately hasn’t read anything relevant on this subject or any recent scholarship on it."

This is the pot calling the kettle black. This guy doesn't know how much he doesn't know.


So far you've only used out-of-date and non-scholarly and amateur sources to attempt to refute the critiques of classically trained professional academics who each cite up-to-date scholarship. Sorry, that's just not compelling enough for me to take your word on it.



(14-01-2014 03:13 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "He relies on popular media and the ignorance of the layperson to score points rather than publishing in a credible academic journal or publishing academically"

Mr Atwill wants to tell the world about something real important. He doesn't need to grovel to the academic world. That's not to say he doesn't respect academia, but this issue is bigger than a bunch of academics flopping their dicks out on a table and arguing over who's got the biggest.


Now you sound like the anti-intellectual Biblical apologists, like Norman L. Geisler and Frank Turek (authors of 'I Don't Have Enough Faith To Be An Atheist'), who rant about 'plural-versities' and un-trustworthiness of academia; their implicit point being 'don't trust your professors, unless they agree with us!'. If it's really that important, then Atwill needs to make sure he gets his facts right by having it peer reviewed. You're right, this isn't about academics 'flopping their dicks out on a table and arguing over who's got the biggest', it's about making sure your work is properly vetted by professionals for accuracy before moving straight to the public. That Atwill can't, or won't, speaks volumes about him.

Carrier can do this with a controversial thesis, so can Price; I see no excuse for Atwill outside of deceit, laziness, or incompetence. He's been pushing his ideas for over a decade (since 2002), he's had enough time to get his shit together.

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14-01-2014, 04:28 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(14-01-2014 04:11 AM)gilius2k14 Wrote:  Only one part of that outdated critique addresses the actual evidence presented by Atwill:
Quote:First, and let me be clear, are there striking similarities between Josephus and the Gospel of Luke? Yes, there are.

None of them make the illogical leap that similarities between Josephus (a Jew) and the Gospels (written by Jewish authors) mean that the Romans did it.
"Striking similarities" is an understatement. Practically the whole of the gospels were written as a pre-configuration of Titus. Just how similar they are can be seen from the 40+ parallels I quoted, which the critique doesn't address directly.

Other scholars have noticed similarities, yes, but Atwill was the first realise a system of parallels existed intertextually/interactively between the gospels and Josephus via matching verbatim, names, locations, concepts together with conundrums.

By problem solving it becomes clear that the Flavians lined up all 40+ parallels in a "barcode" deliberately, by design, to provide the readers of both the gospels and Josephus with a layer of additional information, including satire, via the method of Typology--and also to "big up" Titus. Why else have they lined up the 40+ interactive/intertextual parallels with accompanying satire? (unless you don't see that)

And more parallels exist in the original Greek than they do as English translations.

The next logical step then leads to the proof that the same source authored both works. This is only a "leap of faith" for those who are incapable of understanding patterns, a certain type of dark humour, and making sense of the evidence, etc.



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Sorry, I left my super-duper decoder ring in my other box of Ovaltine.Drinking Beverage

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