Jesus myth
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04-01-2014, 06:37 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(04-01-2014 04:29 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  There must have been 100 men named Y'shua bar Yosef because the names Y'shua and Yosef were terribly common but there was no one named "Jesus Christ" much to the dismay of fundies everywhere.

Did any of them do miracles? I highly doubt it.

The question of whether they actually DID miracles is somewhat irrelevant.
The fact is many of the wandering apocalyptic preachers were perceived to be doing, or thought to be seen to be doing, miracles. It was an age of magic, (a pre-scientific age), which is almost impossible to conceive of in 2014. Miracles were not unique to any one person.

Just as the notion of "prophecy" is often misunderstood in "presentist" terms, so are miracles. Miracles were (totally) *natural* events, in which the *hand of God* was seen to be acting, (thus really only *seen* by someone who was already a believer). Two people, (one a believer, and one not) could witness the SAME event, and see different things.

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04-01-2014, 06:49 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(04-01-2014 06:37 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-01-2014 04:29 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  There must have been 100 men named Y'shua bar Yosef because the names Y'shua and Yosef were terribly common but there was no one named "Jesus Christ" much to the dismay of fundies everywhere.

Did any of them do miracles? I highly doubt it.

The question of whether they actually DID miracles is somewhat irrelevant.
The fact is many of the wandering apocalyptic preachers were perceived to be doing, or thought to be seen to be doing, miracles. It was an age of magic, (a pre-scientific age), which is almost impossible to conceive of in 2014. Miracles were not unique to any one person.

Just as the notion of "prophecy" is often misunderstood in "presentist" terms, so are miracles. Miracles were (totally) *natural* events, in which the *hand of God* was seen to be acting, (thus really only *seen* by someone who was already a believer). Two people, (one a believer, and one not) could witness the SAME event, and see different things.

[Image: wtc-cross.jpg]

Tell me again how we live in an age where expected events are not deemed miracles? OMG we found a T section in the wreckage of a building literally made of nothing but T sections. It must be Jeebus!

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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04-01-2014, 06:57 PM
RE: Jesus myth
How many Stars of David did they find in the wreckage?

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04-01-2014, 07:00 PM
RE: Jesus myth
Did Philo and Josephus write about Pilate's reign? The Administration of Judaea is well-documented, are there no other documents to support Pilate's record?

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04-01-2014, 07:05 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(04-01-2014 06:57 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  How many Stars of David did they find in the wreckage?

Yes I would be much more impressed with any other symbol tbh. Even the Monogram of Christ would be more miraculous.

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(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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04-01-2014, 08:07 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(04-01-2014 06:22 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(04-01-2014 06:10 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  I thought that the first council of Nicaea being the first that the books were canonized was a misconception.

It is.

(04-01-2014 06:10 PM)evenheathen Wrote:  Wasn't it mainly about confirming whether or not Jesus was actually the divine son of god, as there were a few different sects proclaiming different theologies? I was under the impression that the bible wasn't officially canonized as it is now until quite a few councils later.

Nicea was about the Arian controversy, which was the question of Jesus' relationship to God. They also decided on an official date for the celebration of Easter and some other smaller things.

you have to dig deeper then wiki.

I will pick out a few paragraphs from the 49 pages of information I have accrued on the nicene council, you cant depend on wiki for everything guys.

Constantine saw in this confused system of fragmented dogmas the opportunity to create a new and combined State religion, neutral in concept, and to protect it by law. When he conquered the East in 324 he sent his Spanish religious adviser, Osius of Córdoba, to Alexandria with letters to several bishops exhorting them to make peace among themselves. The mission failed and Constantine, probably at the suggestion of Osius, then issued a decree commanding all presbyters and their subordinates "be mounted on asses, mules and horses belonging to the public, and travel to the city of Nicaea" in the Roman province of Bithynia in Asia Minor. They were instructed to bring with them the testimonies they orated to the rabble, "bound in leather" for protection during the long journey, and surrender them to Constantine upon arrival in Nicaea (The Catholic Dictionary, Addis and Arnold, 1917, "Council of Nicaea" entry). Their writings totalled "in all, two thousand two hundred and thirty-one scrolls and legendary tales of gods and saviours, together with a record of the doctrines orated by them" (Life of Constantine, op. cit., vol. ii, p. 73; N&PNF, op. cit., vol. i, p. 518).

Thus, the first ecclesiastical gathering in history was summoned and is today known as the Council of Nicaea. It was a bizarre event that provided many details of early clerical thinking and presents a clear picture of the intellectual climate prevailing at the time. It was at this gathering that Christianity was born, and the ramifications of decisions made at the time are difficult to calculate. About four years prior to chairing the Council, Constantine had been initiated into the religious order of Sol Invictus, one of the two thriving cults that regarded the Sun as the one and only Supreme God (the other was Mithraism). Because of his Sun worship, he instructed Eusebius to convene the first of three sittings on the summer solstice, 21 June 325 (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, vol. i, p. 792), and it was "held in a hall in Osius's palace" (Ecclesiastical History, Bishop Louis Dupin, Paris, 1686, vol. i, p. 598).

It was at that puerile assembly, and with so many cults represented, that a total of 318 "bishops, priests, deacons, subdeacons, acolytes and exorcists" gathered to debate and decide upon a unified belief system that encompassed only one god (An Apology for Christianity, op. cit.). By this time, a huge assortment of "wild texts" (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, "Gospel and Gospels") circulated amongst presbyters and they supported a great variety of Eastern and Western gods and goddesses: Jove, Jupiter, Salenus, Baal, Thor, Gade, Apollo, Juno, Aries, Taurus, Minerva, Rhets, Mithra, Theo, Fragapatti, Atys, Durga, Indra, Neptune, Vulcan, Kriste, Agni, Croesus, Pelides, Huit, Hermes, Thulis, Thammus, Eguptus, Iao, Aph, Saturn, Gitchens, Minos, Maximo, Hecla and Phernes (God's Book of Eskra, anon., ch. xlviii, paragraph 36).

Constantine's intention at Nicaea was to create an entirely new god for his empire who would unite all religious factions under one deity. Presbyters were asked to debate and decide who their new god would be. Delegates argued among themselves, expressing personal motives for inclusion of particular writings that promoted the finer traits of their own special deity. Throughout the meeting, howling factions were immersed in heated debates, and the names of 53 gods were tabled for discussion. "As yet, no God had been selected by the council, and so they balloted in order to determine that matter... For one year and five months the balloting lasted..." (God's Book of Eskra, Prof. S. L. MacGuire's translation, Salisbury, 1922, chapter xlviii, paragraphs 36, 41).

At the end of that time, Constantine returned to the gathering to discover that the presbyters had not agreed on a new deity but had balloted down to a shortlist of five prospects: Caesar, Krishna, Mithra, Horus and Zeus (Historia Ecclesiastica, Eusebius, c. 325). Constantine was the ruling spirit at Nicaea and he ultimately decided upon a new god for them. To involve British factions, he ruled that the name of the great Druid god, Hesus, be joined with the Eastern Saviour-god, Krishna (Krishna is Sanskrit for Christ), and thus Hesus Krishna would be the official name of the new Roman god. A vote was taken and it was with a majority show of hands (161 votes to 157) that both divinities became one God. Following longstanding heathen custom, Constantine used the official gathering and the Roman apotheosis decree to legally deify two deities as one, and did so by democratic consent. A new god was proclaimed and "officially" ratified by Constantine (Acta Concilii Nicaeni, 1618). That purely political act of deification effectively and legally placed Hesus and Krishna among the Roman gods as one individual composite. That abstraction lent Earthly existence to amalgamated doctrines for the Empire's new religion; and because there was no letter "J" in alphabets until around the ninth century, the name subsequently evolved into "Jesus Christ".

I could go on and on

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04-01-2014, 08:26 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(04-01-2014 08:07 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  (Krishna is Sanskrit for Christ)

Would you mind providing a reference for this assertion? As far as I know, Christ is derived from a Greek word with the same meaning as the Hebrew word Messiah -- i.e., the anointed one, which in turn implies a king or leader in that culture. Krishna, on the other hand, means either "all-attractive" or "black or dark", according to my quick and dirty internet research. I can't find anything anywhere that gives it a meaning even remotely similar to the meaning of Christ. Also, St. Paul was referring to Jesus Christ and/or Christ Jesus, and referring to him as God, several centuries before Constantine. Unless you're trying to claim that Constantine's people invented St. Paul as well as Jesus -- a claim with which almost all Biblical scholars (including secular ones) would take issue.
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04-01-2014, 08:32 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(04-01-2014 08:07 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  you have to dig deeper then wiki.

Excuse me? Would you care to explain what you mean here?

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04-01-2014, 08:34 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(04-01-2014 08:07 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(04-01-2014 06:22 PM)maklelan Wrote:  It is.


Nicea was about the Arian controversy, which was the question of Jesus' relationship to God. They also decided on an official date for the celebration of Easter and some other smaller things.

you have to dig deeper then wiki.

I will pick out a few paragraphs from the 49 pages of information I have accrued on the nicene council, you cant depend on wiki for everything guys.

Constantine saw in this confused system of fragmented dogmas the opportunity to create a new and combined State religion, neutral in concept, and to protect it by law. When he conquered the East in 324 he sent his Spanish religious adviser, Osius of Córdoba, to Alexandria with letters to several bishops exhorting them to make peace among themselves. The mission failed and Constantine, probably at the suggestion of Osius, then issued a decree commanding all presbyters and their subordinates "be mounted on asses, mules and horses belonging to the public, and travel to the city of Nicaea" in the Roman province of Bithynia in Asia Minor. They were instructed to bring with them the testimonies they orated to the rabble, "bound in leather" for protection during the long journey, and surrender them to Constantine upon arrival in Nicaea (The Catholic Dictionary, Addis and Arnold, 1917, "Council of Nicaea" entry). Their writings totalled "in all, two thousand two hundred and thirty-one scrolls and legendary tales of gods and saviours, together with a record of the doctrines orated by them" (Life of Constantine, op. cit., vol. ii, p. 73; N&PNF, op. cit., vol. i, p. 518).

Thus, the first ecclesiastical gathering in history was summoned and is today known as the Council of Nicaea. It was a bizarre event that provided many details of early clerical thinking and presents a clear picture of the intellectual climate prevailing at the time. It was at this gathering that Christianity was born, and the ramifications of decisions made at the time are difficult to calculate. About four years prior to chairing the Council, Constantine had been initiated into the religious order of Sol Invictus, one of the two thriving cults that regarded the Sun as the one and only Supreme God (the other was Mithraism). Because of his Sun worship, he instructed Eusebius to convene the first of three sittings on the summer solstice, 21 June 325 (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, vol. i, p. 792), and it was "held in a hall in Osius's palace" (Ecclesiastical History, Bishop Louis Dupin, Paris, 1686, vol. i, p. 598).

It was at that puerile assembly, and with so many cults represented, that a total of 318 "bishops, priests, deacons, subdeacons, acolytes and exorcists" gathered to debate and decide upon a unified belief system that encompassed only one god (An Apology for Christianity, op. cit.). By this time, a huge assortment of "wild texts" (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, "Gospel and Gospels") circulated amongst presbyters and they supported a great variety of Eastern and Western gods and goddesses: Jove, Jupiter, Salenus, Baal, Thor, Gade, Apollo, Juno, Aries, Taurus, Minerva, Rhets, Mithra, Theo, Fragapatti, Atys, Durga, Indra, Neptune, Vulcan, Kriste, Agni, Croesus, Pelides, Huit, Hermes, Thulis, Thammus, Eguptus, Iao, Aph, Saturn, Gitchens, Minos, Maximo, Hecla and Phernes (God's Book of Eskra, anon., ch. xlviii, paragraph 36).

Constantine's intention at Nicaea was to create an entirely new god for his empire who would unite all religious factions under one deity. Presbyters were asked to debate and decide who their new god would be. Delegates argued among themselves, expressing personal motives for inclusion of particular writings that promoted the finer traits of their own special deity. Throughout the meeting, howling factions were immersed in heated debates, and the names of 53 gods were tabled for discussion. "As yet, no God had been selected by the council, and so they balloted in order to determine that matter... For one year and five months the balloting lasted..." (God's Book of Eskra, Prof. S. L. MacGuire's translation, Salisbury, 1922, chapter xlviii, paragraphs 36, 41).

At the end of that time, Constantine returned to the gathering to discover that the presbyters had not agreed on a new deity but had balloted down to a shortlist of five prospects: Caesar, Krishna, Mithra, Horus and Zeus (Historia Ecclesiastica, Eusebius, c. 325). Constantine was the ruling spirit at Nicaea and he ultimately decided upon a new god for them. To involve British factions, he ruled that the name of the great Druid god, Hesus, be joined with the Eastern Saviour-god, Krishna (Krishna is Sanskrit for Christ), and thus Hesus Krishna would be the official name of the new Roman god. A vote was taken and it was with a majority show of hands (161 votes to 157) that both divinities became one God. Following longstanding heathen custom, Constantine used the official gathering and the Roman apotheosis decree to legally deify two deities as one, and did so by democratic consent. A new god was proclaimed and "officially" ratified by Constantine (Acta Concilii Nicaeni, 1618). That purely political act of deification effectively and legally placed Hesus and Krishna among the Roman gods as one individual composite. That abstraction lent Earthly existence to amalgamated doctrines for the Empire's new religion; and because there was no letter "J" in alphabets until around the ninth century, the name subsequently evolved into "Jesus Christ".

I could go on and on

You cannot possibly be serious. You're citing "God's Book of Eskra" as a source ?
HAHAHAHAHA.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20R...oahspe.htm
Please. Do NOT "go on and on" with this crap.
It denies the very real KNOWN (well documented) arguments concerning the developing "orthodoxy". It's simply bullshit.
OMG another Ellis.
(BTW, it's "THAN Wiki". Is THAT a general clue concerning your education level ?)
I have 55 paragraphs about Harry Potter. That makes him real.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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04-01-2014, 08:39 PM
RE: Jesus myth
I wish I could believe goodwithoutgod, I really do, but I can't. While I believe in the council, I don't believe that is how it came down.

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