Jesus myth
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
04-01-2014, 08:42 PM
RE: Jesus myth
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/nicea1.txt
Here are some REAL things they did, from a REAL source.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-01-2014, 08:44 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(04-01-2014 08:26 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  Krishna, on the other hand, means either "all-attractive" or "black or dark", according to my quick and dirty internet research.

This proves once and for all that Jesus wasn't white! Someone call Fox News! Dodgy

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
----
Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-01-2014, 08:50 PM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2014 08:53 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Jesus myth
(04-01-2014 08:34 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(04-01-2014 08:07 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  you have to dig deeper then wiki.

I will pick out a few paragraphs from the 49 pages of information I have accrued on the nicene council, you cant depend on wiki for everything guys.

Constantine saw in this confused system of fragmented dogmas the opportunity to create a new and combined State religion, neutral in concept, and to protect it by law. When he conquered the East in 324 he sent his Spanish religious adviser, Osius of Córdoba, to Alexandria with letters to several bishops exhorting them to make peace among themselves. The mission failed and Constantine, probably at the suggestion of Osius, then issued a decree commanding all presbyters and their subordinates "be mounted on asses, mules and horses belonging to the public, and travel to the city of Nicaea" in the Roman province of Bithynia in Asia Minor. They were instructed to bring with them the testimonies they orated to the rabble, "bound in leather" for protection during the long journey, and surrender them to Constantine upon arrival in Nicaea (The Catholic Dictionary, Addis and Arnold, 1917, "Council of Nicaea" entry). Their writings totalled "in all, two thousand two hundred and thirty-one scrolls and legendary tales of gods and saviours, together with a record of the doctrines orated by them" (Life of Constantine, op. cit., vol. ii, p. 73; N&PNF, op. cit., vol. i, p. 518).

Thus, the first ecclesiastical gathering in history was summoned and is today known as the Council of Nicaea. It was a bizarre event that provided many details of early clerical thinking and presents a clear picture of the intellectual climate prevailing at the time. It was at this gathering that Christianity was born, and the ramifications of decisions made at the time are difficult to calculate. About four years prior to chairing the Council, Constantine had been initiated into the religious order of Sol Invictus, one of the two thriving cults that regarded the Sun as the one and only Supreme God (the other was Mithraism). Because of his Sun worship, he instructed Eusebius to convene the first of three sittings on the summer solstice, 21 June 325 (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, vol. i, p. 792), and it was "held in a hall in Osius's palace" (Ecclesiastical History, Bishop Louis Dupin, Paris, 1686, vol. i, p. 598).

It was at that puerile assembly, and with so many cults represented, that a total of 318 "bishops, priests, deacons, subdeacons, acolytes and exorcists" gathered to debate and decide upon a unified belief system that encompassed only one god (An Apology for Christianity, op. cit.). By this time, a huge assortment of "wild texts" (Catholic Encyclopedia, New Edition, "Gospel and Gospels") circulated amongst presbyters and they supported a great variety of Eastern and Western gods and goddesses: Jove, Jupiter, Salenus, Baal, Thor, Gade, Apollo, Juno, Aries, Taurus, Minerva, Rhets, Mithra, Theo, Fragapatti, Atys, Durga, Indra, Neptune, Vulcan, Kriste, Agni, Croesus, Pelides, Huit, Hermes, Thulis, Thammus, Eguptus, Iao, Aph, Saturn, Gitchens, Minos, Maximo, Hecla and Phernes (God's Book of Eskra, anon., ch. xlviii, paragraph 36).

Constantine's intention at Nicaea was to create an entirely new god for his empire who would unite all religious factions under one deity. Presbyters were asked to debate and decide who their new god would be. Delegates argued among themselves, expressing personal motives for inclusion of particular writings that promoted the finer traits of their own special deity. Throughout the meeting, howling factions were immersed in heated debates, and the names of 53 gods were tabled for discussion. "As yet, no God had been selected by the council, and so they balloted in order to determine that matter... For one year and five months the balloting lasted..." (God's Book of Eskra, Prof. S. L. MacGuire's translation, Salisbury, 1922, chapter xlviii, paragraphs 36, 41).

At the end of that time, Constantine returned to the gathering to discover that the presbyters had not agreed on a new deity but had balloted down to a shortlist of five prospects: Caesar, Krishna, Mithra, Horus and Zeus (Historia Ecclesiastica, Eusebius, c. 325). Constantine was the ruling spirit at Nicaea and he ultimately decided upon a new god for them. To involve British factions, he ruled that the name of the great Druid god, Hesus, be joined with the Eastern Saviour-god, Krishna (Krishna is Sanskrit for Christ), and thus Hesus Krishna would be the official name of the new Roman god. A vote was taken and it was with a majority show of hands (161 votes to 157) that both divinities became one God. Following longstanding heathen custom, Constantine used the official gathering and the Roman apotheosis decree to legally deify two deities as one, and did so by democratic consent. A new god was proclaimed and "officially" ratified by Constantine (Acta Concilii Nicaeni, 1618). That purely political act of deification effectively and legally placed Hesus and Krishna among the Roman gods as one individual composite. That abstraction lent Earthly existence to amalgamated doctrines for the Empire's new religion; and because there was no letter "J" in alphabets until around the ninth century, the name subsequently evolved into "Jesus Christ".

I could go on and on

You cannot possibly be serious. You're citing "God's Book of Eskra" as a source ?
HAHAHAHAHA.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20R...oahspe.htm
Please. Do NOT "go on and on" with this crap.
It denies the very real KNOWN (well documented) arguments concerning the developing "orthodoxy". It's simply bullshit.
OMG another Ellis.
(BTW, it's "THAN Wiki". Is THAT a general clue concerning your education level ?)
I have 55 paragraphs about Harry Potter. That makes him real.

Some times it is good to shake things up, gets conversations going, people thinking of different angles, you don't get tired of the same ten posits from theists, and the same ten counters? A closed mind stops learning, I like trying new thoughts, never know where it takes you...I find this jesus myth concept interesting.

Oh sorry if I typoed something, I didnt realize we were being graded. I do have a Master's Degree, but it isn't in philosophy or some such nonsense...or english for that matter. Did I fail to articulate something for you? shall I draw pretty crayon pictures for bucky ball, would that be better? *pats on head*.

http://ecmarsh.com/fathers/npnf2/NPNF2-14/index.htm

https://www.nexusmagazine.com/index.php?...&Itemid=71

http://loveforlife.com.au/content/07/07/...ony-bushby



Drinking Beverage

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-01-2014, 09:08 PM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2014 09:52 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus myth
(04-01-2014 08:50 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  
(04-01-2014 08:34 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  You cannot possibly be serious. You're citing "God's Book of Eskra" as a source ?
HAHAHAHAHA.
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20R...oahspe.htm
Please. Do NOT "go on and on" with this crap.
It denies the very real KNOWN (well documented) arguments concerning the developing "orthodoxy". It's simply bullshit.
OMG another Ellis.
(BTW, it's "THAN Wiki". Is THAT a general clue concerning your education level ?)
I have 55 paragraphs about Harry Potter. That makes him real.

Some times it is good to shake things up, gets conversations going, people thinking of different angles, you don't get tired of the same ten posits from theists, and the same ten counters? A closed mind stops learning, I like trying new thoughts, never know where it takes you...I find this jesus myth concept interesting.

Oh sorry if I typoed something, I didnt realize we were being graded. I do have a Master's Degree, but it isn't in philosophy or some such nonsense...or english for that matter. Did I fail to articulate something for you? shall I draw pretty crayon pictures for bucky ball, would that be better? *pats on head*.

http://ecmarsh.com/fathers/npnf2/NPNF2-14/index.htm

https://www.nexusmagazine.com/index.php?...&Itemid=71

http://loveforlife.com.au/content/07/07/...ony-bushby



Drinking Beverage

So THAT's it ??
One link to council proceedings that are totally irrelevant, and two articles by a known nut case.

I also think it's valid to question the historicity of Yeshua, however going off the deep end, and making a fool of yourself with idiot sources are not going to help you. What exactly is your Masters degree in, and where did it come from ? Is it in History, or the History of Religion ?
You can keep your creepy hands to yourself, thank you. I do realize that crayon drawings is all you can do, but Bushby has been EXPOSED as a fraud.
http://www.thedevineevidence.com/skeptic...fraud.html
http://www.tektonics.org/af/bushby01.html

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-01-2014, 09:19 PM
RE: Jesus myth
I thought this was interesting, from Ehrman's Jesus Interrupted.

"All of this mattered in part because the Roman emperor Con- stantine had converted to Christianity and wanted to use this new religion to help unify his fractured empire. A split religion could not bring unity. The religion had to be united first. And so the emperor called a meeting in Nicaea of the most important Christian bishops in the empire, in order to debate the issues and to make a judgment to be binding on all Christians. This was the famous Council of Nicaea of the year 325 CE.
In the end the council voted for Athanasius’s position. Contrary to what is sometimes said, it was nearly a unanimous decision, not a close vote. Still, even after that day the debates continued, and for a while in the fourth century it looked as though the Arians were going to emerge victorious after all. But eventually the orthodox position was that of Athanasius. There are three persons in the God- head. They are distinct from each other. But each one is equally God. All three are eternal beings. And they all are of the same substance. This, then, is the doctrine of the Trinity.
It is quite a development from anything found in the New Testa- ment, where there is no explicit statement of anything of the sort. Not even in a document like the Gospel of John, where Jesus is thought of as divine, is there any discussion of three being one in substance. As you might expect, later scribes of the New Testament found this lack disturbing, and so in one place at least they inserted an explicit reference to the Trinity (1 John 5:7–8).9 The Trinity is a later Christian invention, which was based, in the arguments of Athanasius and others, on passages of Scripture but which does not actually appear in any of the books of the New Testament.
Within three hundred years Jesus went from being a Jewish apocalyptic prophet to being God himself, a member of the Trinity. Early Christianity is nothing if not remarkable."

So basically the Council is what made the Holy Spirit part of the Trinity, nowhere else.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
----
Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-01-2014, 09:31 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(04-01-2014 09:19 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  So basically the Council is what made the Holy Spirit part of the Trinity, nowhere else.

Not exactly. The relationship of the Spirit to God was a topic of later theological debate between the Pneumatomachi and Cappadocian leaders. Nicea was strictly the relationship of Jesus to God, with the notion of homoousios (consubstantial) introduced to settle the dispute. They created the idea that Jesus and God were two "persons" within one "being."

My Blog
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-01-2014, 09:34 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(04-01-2014 09:31 PM)maklelan Wrote:  
(04-01-2014 09:19 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  So basically the Council is what made the Holy Spirit part of the Trinity, nowhere else.

Not exactly. The relationship of the Spirit to God was a topic of later theological debate between the Pneumatomachi and Cappadocian leaders. Nicea was strictly the relationship of Jesus to God, with the notion of homoousios (consubstantial) introduced to settle the dispute. They created the idea that Jesus and God were two "persons" within one "being."

Like everything else ever devised by a committee noone got what they wanted and the end result was worse than either alternative.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Revenant77x's post
04-01-2014, 09:43 PM (This post was last modified: 04-01-2014 09:53 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus myth
(04-01-2014 09:19 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  I thought this was interesting, from Ehrman's Jesus Interrupted.

"All of this mattered in part because the Roman emperor Con- stantine had converted to Christianity and wanted to use this new religion to help unify his fractured empire. A split religion could not bring unity. The religion had to be united first. And so the emperor called a meeting in Nicaea of the most important Christian bishops in the empire, in order to debate the issues and to make a judgment to be binding on all Christians. This was the famous Council of Nicaea of the year 325 CE.
In the end the council voted for Athanasius’s position. Contrary to what is sometimes said, it was nearly a unanimous decision, not a close vote. Still, even after that day the debates continued, and for a while in the fourth century it looked as though the Arians were going to emerge victorious after all. But eventually the orthodox position was that of Athanasius. There are three persons in the God- head. They are distinct from each other. But each one is equally God. All three are eternal beings. And they all are of the same substance. This, then, is the doctrine of the Trinity.
It is quite a development from anything found in the New Testament, where there is no explicit statement of anything of the sort. Not even in a document like the Gospel of John, where Jesus is thought of as divine, is there any discussion of three being one in substance. As you might expect, later scribes of the New Testament found this lack disturbing, and so in one place at least they inserted an explicit reference to the Trinity (1 John 5:7–8).9 The Trinity is a later Christian invention, which was based, in the arguments of Athanasius and others, on passages of Scripture but which does not actually appear in any of the books of the New Testament.
Within three hundred years Jesus went from being a Jewish apocalyptic prophet to being God himself, a member of the Trinity. Early Christianity is nothing if not remarkable."

So basically the Council is what made the Holy Spirit part of the Trinity, nowhere else.

I think there is some argument about whether Constantine genuinely "converted", as he was known to continue to worship his (previous) other gods, later. But he DID use the new religion, (which IN NO WAY "was born" at Nicaea, as ANYONE who knew ANYTHING about ALL the arguments and events PRECEDING Nicaea knows), to unify his empire. The arguments concerning the Trinity preceded Nicaea, and went on afterwards. Nicaea did not invent the Trinity. They were more concerned about the "filioque procedit" argument, (how the Son "proceeds" from the Father). They tried to put an end to some of the arguments, but it didn't work. The concept of an "active agent" (ie the "spirit" of God) (proceeding) from the Father is very much present in much older documents, (but not as a "person").

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-01-2014, 09:44 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(04-01-2014 09:34 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Like everything else ever devised by a committee noone got what they wanted and the end result was worse than either alternative.

Santa Claus got what he wanted. The original St. Nicholas attended the Council of Nicea, and at one point after Arius, the guy responsible for the controversy, spoke, St. Nicholas got up, grabbed him by the beard, and punched him in the face.

My Blog
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like maklelan's post
04-01-2014, 09:53 PM
RE: Jesus myth
Thanks maklelan. The most interesting part of that excerpt to me was the insertion into the bible. And now people believe it unquestionably, without ever knowing how it came to pass. I wonder how many would still believe it if they knew the origins.

Check out my now-defunct atheism blog. It's just a blog, no ads, no revenue, no gods.
----
Atheism promotes critical thinking; theism promotes hypocritical thinking. -- Me
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: