Jesus myth
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25-01-2014, 01:20 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(25-01-2014 12:53 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Yes. The relationship between first and second century Judaism and Christianity is very complex and interesting. In fact I've written a book on it.

I'll assume then that you know what you're talking about. ...reading your post again, I see you were talking about Christianity *today*. Well sure, that's not very Jewish at all, but what about 2nd century Christianity? Was it not Jewish enough to possibly have originated in the Essenes?

Softly, softly, catchee monkey.
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25-01-2014, 02:04 AM (This post was last modified: 25-01-2014 02:10 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus myth
(25-01-2014 01:20 AM)toadaly Wrote:  
(25-01-2014 12:53 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Yes. The relationship between first and second century Judaism and Christianity is very complex and interesting. In fact I've written a book on it.

I'll assume then that you know what you're talking about. ...reading your post again, I see you were talking about Christianity *today*. Well sure, that's not very Jewish at all, but what about 2nd century Christianity? Was it not Jewish enough to possibly have originated in the Essenes?

Well, I'm not pretending I'm an expert on the topic, but I've got some idea. Of course it's a massive topic and no one is absolutely sure how Christianity got started.

My opinion is that it was originally created as Roman government propaganda to undermine Messianic Judaism. It did, of course, adopt and adapt many Jewish principles.

In my opinion Paul's prattle was the pre-war propaganda, and the Gospels were a postwar effort. Those Gospels may have been very loosely based on a failed messiah, Jesus the Nazarene, an Essenian political insurgent who was knocked off by Rome. Or, Jesus could've been entirely mythical as per Carrier. It makes little real difference to the atheist which is the case, although Christians like to imagine that there was a real flesh and blood Jesus.
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25-01-2014, 02:41 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(24-01-2014 09:56 PM)Free Wrote:  
(24-01-2014 09:42 PM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  Of course! Why wouldn't it?

Because the Romans did not translate Semitic languages to Latin at that time.

Cool


Please provide evidence and citation of the Romans regularly using someone's supposed title to the complete exclusion of their name. Drinking Beverage

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25-01-2014, 07:38 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(25-01-2014 12:05 AM)Chippy Wrote:  
(23-01-2014 11:30 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  But at any rate, even if he were fictional, the actual teachings attributed to him in the Nikayas stand up well in their own right, regardless of their actual source.

That is irrelevant to the discussion Tourette's Chimp.

Please take your fight elsewhere.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-01-2014, 08:22 AM (This post was last modified: 25-01-2014 08:48 AM by Free.)
RE: Jesus myth
(24-01-2014 09:59 PM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  Free: Do. You. Know. What. A. Primary. Source. Is?

You clearly don't.

Yes I do.

And?

I suppose that you utterly fail to understand that in the 1st century a published Roman history book was considered a primary source. Tacitus used primary sources for his history book, so from his position, yes, his sources were primary.

But that is irrelevant.

What is relevant here is the following;

The mere existence of Tacitus' mention of Christus and the Christians in his Annals is in fact evidence to support the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, and there is not one single argument posted here that can dispute that fact for the simple reason that it is self-evident.

The best any of you here have done is the following:

1. Argument from silence.
2. Mere assertion.

That is exactly the sum total of your arguments against Tacitus, and do you seriously think that a well educated and intelligent reasonable mind will believe that your fallacious arguments from silence and assertions somehow cast doubt on the authenticity of what Tacitus wrote?

They simply don't.

And you wonder why among the hundreds of world scholars in this field why virtually all of them agree on the authenticity? They agree because they have spent years on research using the historical method and actually understand the behaviors and natures of both the Romans and Jews as they existed in the 1st century.

You do not understand, because you are uneducated and unqualified to understand.

So there is a very well educated and experienced consensus among world scholars who literally laugh at your objections because they see precisely what I see; an unlearned, inexperienced, huff & puff conspiracy theorists who can be compared to those hard-core debunkers who run around the internet saying, "WE NEVER LANDED ON THE MOON!"

Honestly, that is precisely how you are viewed.

Big Grin

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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25-01-2014, 08:35 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(25-01-2014 08:22 AM)Free Wrote:  So there is a very well educated and experienced consensus among world scholars who literally laugh at your objections [...]
As opposed to laughing at them figuratively? Consider

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25-01-2014, 08:41 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(25-01-2014 08:35 AM)Vosur Wrote:  
(25-01-2014 08:22 AM)Free Wrote:  So there is a very well educated and experienced consensus among world scholars who literally laugh at your objections [...]
As opposed to laughing at them figuratively? Consider

Dry humor, but I like it. Thumbsup

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
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25-01-2014, 08:53 AM
RE: Jesus myth
While it is the case that I am an atheist, I don't have a horse in this race. It doesn't make much difference to me
whether there was a historical Jesus preaching in the first century or whether it is largely a myth.

Both sides make persuasive arguments; neither side has made a convincing argument.

The argument for a Roman-concocted conspiracy to invent Jesus lacks any actual evidence.
The proof of this would be a resounding blow against Christianity, but there is no smoking gun.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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25-01-2014, 08:55 AM
RE: Jesus myth
Enough with the ad hominem and appeal to authority! You can laugh at my objections all you want, but that's a poor excuse for answering them. You clearly have no idea what a primary source is, or you would not make such ignorant statements about them.
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25-01-2014, 08:55 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(25-01-2014 08:41 AM)Free Wrote:  Dry humor, but I like it. Thumbsup
As opposed to wet humor? Wink

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