Jesus myth
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
25-01-2014, 12:40 PM (This post was last modified: 25-01-2014 12:58 PM by TwoCultSurvivor.)
RE: Jesus myth
The argument DOES NOT FAVOR that Tacitus used a primary record! Holy cow, you just proved that. How can you fail to see it?


Unless you don't know what a primary record is. Why don't you look it up so you can stop embarrassing yourself?

I am nearly dumbstruck by your ability to assert one thing while demonstrating that the evidence shows the opposite of what you claim. A primary record would refer to Jesus as Christ, but Christians would not? Are you fucking serious? You can't be.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-01-2014, 12:57 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(25-01-2014 12:31 PM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  There may have been a record of Pilate executing someone named Christus, but such a record would by definition not be a primary record. Again, you don't seem to know what a primary record is.

I know what a primary record is, and obviously you do not understand that if Tacitus was only using Roman records, then he was using primary records.

We, however, can view his primary records as secondary sources from our perspective, but that does not negate the fact that the he would most likely have used primary sources from his perspective.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-01-2014, 12:59 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(25-01-2014 12:40 PM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  The argument DOES NOT FAVOR that Tacitus used a primary record! Holy cow, you just proved that. How can you fail to see it?


Unless you don't know what a primary record is. Why don't you look it up so you can stop embarrassing yourself?

Read & Learn:

Quote:A primary source is a document or physical object which was written or created during the time under study. These sources were present during an experience or time period and offer an inside view of a particular event. Some types of primary sources include:
ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS (excerpts or translations acceptable): Diaries, speeches, manuscripts, letters, interviews, news film footage, autobiographies, official records
CREATIVE WORKS: Poetry, drama, novels, music, art
RELICS OR ARTIFACTS: Pottery, furniture, clothing, buildings
Examples of primary sources include:
Diary of Anne Frank - Experiences of a Jewish family during WWII
The Constitution of Canada - Canadian History
A journal article reporting NEW research or findings
Weavings and pottery - Native American history
Plato's Republic - Women in Ancient Greece
What is a secondary source?
A secondary source interprets and analyzes primary sources. These sources are one or more steps removed from the event. Secondary sources may have pictures, quotes or graphics of primary sources in them. Some types of seconday sources include:
PUBLICATIONS: Textbooks, magazine articles, histories, criticisms, commentaries, encyclopedias
Examples of secondary sources include:
A journal/magazine article which interprets or reviews previous findings
A history textbook
A book about the effects of WWI
Search by keyword for Primary Sources in the Main Catalog
You can search the Main Catalog to find direct references to primary source material. Perform a keyword search for your topic and add one of the words below:
(these are several examples of words that would identify a source as primary)
charters
correspondence
diaries
early works
interviews
manuscripts
oratory
pamphlets
personal narratives
sources
speeches
letters
documents

http://www.princeton.edu/~refdesk/primary2.html

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-01-2014, 01:04 PM (This post was last modified: 25-01-2014 01:08 PM by TwoCultSurvivor.)
RE: Jesus myth
THANK YOU. I have grown so weary of your anachronistic insistence that he used primary records when you knew damn well all along that he did not.

So by our standards today, any source he used to verify the historical account of the crucifixion was not a primary source, which is what I have been saying all along and which is what you have agreed with all along, yet you prolonged this argument for no reason rather than admit that I was right all along.

Fucking nerve.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-01-2014, 01:07 PM
RE: Jesus myth
The article you linked supports everything I've been saying about primary sources. So does the Wikipedia item.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-01-2014, 01:11 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(25-01-2014 01:04 PM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  THANK YOU. I have grown so weary of your anachronistic insistence that he used primary records when you knew damn well all along that he did not.

So by our standards today, any source he used to verify the historical record was not a primary source, which is what I have been saying all along and which is what you have agreed with all along, yet you prolonged this argument for no reason rather than admit that I was right all along.

Fucking nerve.

Your argument, which I will quote below, insisted that TACITUS never used primary sources, and not that what we were viewing from our perspective as secondary sources:

TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:The argument DOES NOT FAVOR that Tacitus used a primary record!

TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:There is no evidence that Tacitus knew the name of Jesus, which means there is no evidence that he used any source that would have identified Jesus by name, which means he was not relying on a primary record

In all your arguments you were talking about Tacitus' perspective, and not the perspective of modern scholarship.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-01-2014, 01:13 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(25-01-2014 12:33 PM)Free Wrote:  The chair does not represent the existence of Jesus. The discussion was about the Tacitus writings being self evident, with the post about that being right HERE.

The specific quote of me in question is the following:

Quote:The mere existence of Tacitus' mention of Christus and the Christians in his Annals is in fact evidence to support the existence of Jesus of Nazareth, and there is not one single argument posted here that can dispute that fact for the simple reason that it is self-evident.

That's the origin of the self-evident argument.
I don't think I agree with that. You seem to suggest that the self-evidence of Tacitus' writings as evidence of Jesus' existence derives solely from the fact that they mention him.

Now, I can understand why you would think that, but in that case you would have to concede that if I was to mention Jesus on a piece of paper, that that would count as evidence (no matter how weak it may be) of Jesus' existence as well.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that Tacitus' writing is evidence of Jesus' existence, but I don't consider this to be a self-evident fact.

[Image: 7oDSbD4.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-01-2014, 01:13 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(25-01-2014 12:38 PM)TwoCultSurvivor Wrote:  You can call it self-evident, but that doesn't make it so. Seriously, how are you not getting this? You sound like those who say the fact that the Quirinian census is documented in Luke makes it so. You don't even see the flaw in your reasoning, and it's because you are not being respectful to those who are engaging you in this discussion. Your condescension is clouding your judgment.

How do you not understand that the mere existence of the text is self evident of the existence of the text?

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-01-2014, 01:15 PM (This post was last modified: 25-01-2014 01:19 PM by TwoCultSurvivor.)
RE: Jesus myth
You are fucking nitpicking and it is beneath both you and this discussion. You know damn well what I meant and, further, you know damn well I have been right all along. I have NOT been talking about Tacitus' perspective; YOU have, and you have done so in a way that is both deceptive and counterproductive to a civil conversation. You knew I was right, but you dragged the argument out anyway.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-01-2014, 01:17 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(25-01-2014 01:13 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(25-01-2014 12:33 PM)Free Wrote:  The chair does not represent the existence of Jesus. The discussion was about the Tacitus writings being self evident, with the post about that being right HERE.

The specific quote of me in question is the following:


That's the origin of the self-evident argument.
I don't think I agree with that. You seem to suggest that the self-evidence of Tacitus' writings as evidence of Jesus' existence derives solely from the fact that it mentions him.

In that case you would have to concede that if I was to mention Jesus on a piece of paper, that that would count as evidence (however strong it may be) of Jesus' existence as well.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that Tacitus' writing is evidence of Jesus' existence, but I don't consider this to be a self-evident fact.

That was not my point.

All I was saying was the mere existence of the Tacitus text is in itself self evident as evidence of the Tacitus text.

Self-evident: Requiring no proof or explanation.

Tacitus' text exists, and requires no proof or explanation to prove its existence.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/self-evident

Hence, the mere existence of the text is evidence to support the existence of Jesus of Nazareth.

How can anyone become an atheist when we are all born with no beliefs in the first place? We are atheists because we were born this way.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: