Jesus myth
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06-02-2014, 01:51 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(06-02-2014 01:40 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I suppose, Chas, the only way to stay on side with you is to just say, "Gee, I dunno, yeah, it must be all really impossilbe to figure out so there's no point thinking anything at all about anything". That's how you come across. As a nihilist. Which you are entitled to be, of course.

Nihilist? Are you fucking retarded?

Ellis is a crank, and a rather unhinged one at that. The way that he goes on personal tirades against those who disagree with his entirely un-peer reviewed work published by conspiracy theory clearing houses paints him as decidedly untrustworthy.

Atwill is no more plausible (and equally un-peer reviewed), but at least seems far better behaved in public.

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06-02-2014, 03:04 AM (This post was last modified: 06-02-2014 03:45 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: Jesus myth
(06-02-2014 01:43 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 11:15 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Fuck, don't say his name! You're likely to summon him again from the Pits of Idiocy... Dodgy

Ralph Ellis, Ralph Ellis, Ralph EllisBowingAngel

Does anyone like Fitzgerald? I think the last line of this sums it up. Don't take things so seriously. I like Ellis because he is fun, regardless of whether he is ultimately correct. (which he is Yes ).

XXVI
Why, all the Saints and Sages who discuss'd
Of the Two Worlds so wisely--they are thrust
Like foolish Prophets forth; their Words to Scorn
Are scatter'd, and their Mouths are stopt with Dust.


XXVII
Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and Saint, and heard great argument
About it and about: but evermore
Came out by the same door where in I went.


XXVIII
With them the seed of Wisdom did I sow,
And with mine own hand wrought to make it grow;
And this was all the Harvest that I reap'd--
"I came like Water, and like Wind I go."


XXIX
Into this Universe, and Why not knowing
Nor Whence, like Water willy-nilly flowing;
And out of it, as Wind along the Waste,
I know not Whither, willy-nilly blowing.


XXX
What, without asking, hither hurried Whence?
And, without asking, Whither hurried hence!
Oh, many a Cup of this forbidden Wine
Must drown the memory of that insolence!


XXXI
Up from Earth's Centre through the Seventh Gate
rose, and on the Throne of Saturn sate;
And many a Knot unravel'd by the Road;
But not the Master-knot of Human Fate.


XXXII
There was the Door to which I found no Key;
There was the Veil through which I might not see:
Some little talk awhile of Me and Thee
There was--and then no more of Thee and Me.


XXXIII
Earth could not answer; nor the Seas that mourn
In flowing Purple, of their Lord forlorn;
Nor rolling Heaven, with all his Signs reveal'd
And hidden by the sleeve of Night and Morn.


XXXIV
Then of the Thee in Me works behind
The Veil, I lifted up my hands to find
A Lamp amid the Darkness; and I heard,
As from Without--"The Me Within Thee Blind!"


XXXV
Then to the lip of this poor earthen Urn
I lean'd, the Secret of my Life to learn:
And Lip to Lip it murmur'd--"While you live
Drink!--for, once dead, you never shall return."

Which bits of Ralph's work did you find appealing?

Which bits of Ralph's work could you understand?
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06-02-2014, 03:23 AM
RE: Jesus myth
I haven't finished reading the initial post yet, and I have not had a look at the whole discussion going on.

But after reading the first paragraph about Jesus not being mentioned anywhere else:
Jesus is mentioned in the Quran. But the Quran says that Jesus is a prophet of god and that the christian notion of him being god's son and god himself is absurd.

I do not want to argue that Jesus did exist based on this. I just wanted to let you know about it for future reference.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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06-02-2014, 03:57 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(06-02-2014 03:23 AM)Youkay Wrote:  I haven't finished reading the initial post yet, and I have not had a look at the whole discussion going on.

But after reading the first paragraph about Jesus not being mentioned anywhere else:
Jesus is mentioned in the Quran. But the Quran says that Jesus is a prophet of god and that the christian notion of him being god's son and god himself is absurd.

I do not want to argue that Jesus did exist based on this. I just wanted to let you know about it for future reference.

Thanks.

Most interested atheists already know what the Quran says about our Jeebus.

As you know, the Quran is full of shit. The authors lived 700+ years after our Jeebus may have existed. They had no idea about Jeebus, even less than us... there is no evidence they had any genuine knowledge of the family or followers of the real Jeebus. They were just dudes trying to undermine their chief rivals.
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06-02-2014, 03:59 AM
RE: Jesus myth
I totally agree to that.

Fun "paradox": The higher the selection pressure, the slower evolution takes place.
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06-02-2014, 04:23 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(06-02-2014 03:59 AM)Youkay Wrote:  I totally agree to that.

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06-02-2014, 08:21 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(06-02-2014 03:57 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 03:23 AM)Youkay Wrote:  I haven't finished reading the initial post yet, and I have not had a look at the whole discussion going on.

But after reading the first paragraph about Jesus not being mentioned anywhere else:
Jesus is mentioned in the Quran. But the Quran says that Jesus is a prophet of god and that the christian notion of him being god's son and god himself is absurd.

I do not want to argue that Jesus did exist based on this. I just wanted to let you know about it for future reference.

Thanks.

Most interested atheists already know what the Quran says about our Jeebus.

As you know, the Quran is full of shit. The authors lived 700+ years after our Jeebus may have existed. They had no idea about Jeebus, even less than us... there is no evidence they had any genuine knowledge of the family or followers of the real Jeebus. They were just dudes trying to undermine their chief rivals.

Some of the stories of Jesus in the Qu'ran were taken from the Infancy Gospel of Thomas, which was dated some-time in the 2nd century, at least 500 years before Muhammad.

Here's an example.

Infancy Gospel of Thomas:

Quote:This little child Jesus when he was five years old was playing at the ford of a brook: and he gathered together the waters that flowed there into pools, and made them straightway clean, and commanded them by his word alone. 2 And having made soft clay, he fashioned thereof twelve sparrows. And it was the Sabbath when he did these things (or made them). And there were also many other little children playing with him.

3 And a certain Jew when he saw what Jesus did, playing upon the Sabbath day, departed straightway and told his father Joseph: Lo, thy child is at the brook, and he hath taken clay and fashioned twelve little birds, and hath polluted the Sabbath day. 4 And Joseph came to the place and saw: and cried out to him, saying: Wherefore doest thou these things on the Sabbath, which it is not lawful to do? But Jesus clapped his hands together and cried out to the sparrows and said to them: Go! and the sparrows took their flight and went away chirping. 5 And when the Jews saw it they were amazed, and departed and told their chief men that which they had seen Jesus do.

The Holy Qu'ran 5: 110:

Quote:When Allah will say: O Jesus, son of Mary, remember My favour to thee and to thy mother, when I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit; thou spokest to people in the cradle and in old age, and when I taught thee the Book and the Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel, and when thou didst determine out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then thou didst breathe into it and it became a bird by My permission; and thou didst heal the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when thou didst raise the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the Children of Israel from thee when thou camest to them with clear arguments -- but those of them who disbelieved said: This is nothing but clear enchantment

The Qu'ran has ripped off many more non-canonical Christian documents, as it was obvious that it was Muhammad's intention to find substitutes to the canonical Gospels as a means of disputing Christian theology.

The history of Islam is easily exposed by any historian as being nothing more than an anti-Christian and anti-Judaism theology, and which was built on hatred, fear, intimidation, and spread by the sword.

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06-02-2014, 10:04 AM
RE: Jesus myth
Mark, I typed a long reply and then it disappeared, which is happening a lot.

I understand Ellis to say that there was a Jesus of Gamala who is in the historical record and has characteristics which lend themselves to being the subject of a political work by Josephus. He was married to a Mary, was a priest, liked children, was crucified, survived and was a Nazarene. He was later than Jesus Christ but this fits in with the Atwill conspiracy theory.

I haven't entirely digested why Ellis says he is the same person as Izas of Edessa/Abiadene. His theory from that point is based on that assumption and if one accepts that one can, I think, understand why this guy would have been important in Judea. He disappears from the historical record after he is taken down from the cross but a similar character turns up in the historical record in Alexandria in Vespasians court and then Vespasian becomes Emperor...

The rest, about Arthur is speculative but very intriguing. I have no problem at all seeing where Ellis is saying he has facts, where he is making assumptions and where he is hypothesizing so I have no problem with him at all. All theories from that era are going to be speculative as most of the historical record is lost for good.
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06-02-2014, 10:42 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(06-02-2014 01:40 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  
(05-02-2014 10:57 PM)toadaly Wrote:  Maybe. It's possible Jesus was the Essene Teacher of Righteousness from ~150 BCE. It's possible he was a first century son of a Jewish high priest, or some other aristocrat...or any in between or sideways. Jesus is the ultimate silly putty, taking on whatever shape fits your fancy, and in the old days of newspapers, whatever image you wanted too.



I don't see it as anything more than saying who is the best "fit". The Gamala Jesus is the best one I can see and Atwill says that the likely Jesus person was another of the leaders of the Jewish revolt. Jesus of Gamala was a leader of the Jewish revolt and was married to a woman called Mary.

So, what we have going on here is a debate between someone who is just trying to find if there is a real person upon whom the ministry of a Jesus might have been based and others who seem to want to say either that there was no person at all, it was pure invention, just like Mithra and Horus, or that it "had" to be someone resembling Jesus, like Simon Magnus.

Remember, before "Jesus", he was the messianic avenger who was going to return and lead the Jews. There was a revolt which had leaders but the revolt failed and the only leader figure who emerges is this Jesus character who was thrown out even by orthodox Jews.

Why bother hunting about or even thinking about whether there was a lowly Buddhist preacher in Judea who this might be based on? Nostalgia? "Say it ain't so, surely, there was some peace preacher in white robes?" That is how it comes across particularly in the posts of those people here who can't stand anyone saying something different which they haven't heard of.

I suppose, Chas, the only way to stay on side with you is to just say, "Gee, I dunno, yeah, it must be all really impossilbe to figure out so there's no point thinking anything at all about anything". That's how you come across. As a nihilist. Which you are entitled to be, of course.

No, I have interacted with Ellis here and I have read some of his posted/published work.

He makes stuff up. He draws absurd inferences from coincidence, he forces similarities that simply aren't there, and he proposes ridiculous pseudo-scientific garbage.

He is a fool and a charlatan. I pay no attention to him because he has proved to be utterly unreliable.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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06-02-2014, 01:16 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(06-02-2014 10:42 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(06-02-2014 01:40 AM)Deltabravo Wrote:  I don't see it as anything more than saying who is the best "fit". The Gamala Jesus is the best one I can see and Atwill says that the likely Jesus person was another of the leaders of the Jewish revolt. Jesus of Gamala was a leader of the Jewish revolt and was married to a woman called Mary.

So, what we have going on here is a debate between someone who is just trying to find if there is a real person upon whom the ministry of a Jesus might have been based and others who seem to want to say either that there was no person at all, it was pure invention, just like Mithra and Horus, or that it "had" to be someone resembling Jesus, like Simon Magnus.

Remember, before "Jesus", he was the messianic avenger who was going to return and lead the Jews. There was a revolt which had leaders but the revolt failed and the only leader figure who emerges is this Jesus character who was thrown out even by orthodox Jews.

Why bother hunting about or even thinking about whether there was a lowly Buddhist preacher in Judea who this might be based on? Nostalgia? "Say it ain't so, surely, there was some peace preacher in white robes?" That is how it comes across particularly in the posts of those people here who can't stand anyone saying something different which they haven't heard of.

I suppose, Chas, the only way to stay on side with you is to just say, "Gee, I dunno, yeah, it must be all really impossilbe to figure out so there's no point thinking anything at all about anything". That's how you come across. As a nihilist. Which you are entitled to be, of course.

No, I have interacted with Ellis here and I have read some of his posted/published work.

He makes stuff up. He draws absurd inferences from coincidence, he forces similarities that simply aren't there, and he proposes ridiculous pseudo-scientific garbage.

He is a fool and a charlatan. I pay no attention to him because he has proved to be utterly unreliable.

What is your view on whether there was a person called Jesus upon whom the NT is based in whole or in part?
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