Jesus myth
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05-01-2014, 09:26 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(05-01-2014 09:10 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  what are your thoughts on Nazareth? I have heard there is some discussion out there on whether or not it even existed. I think it did as per things I have stumbled across.

This is an area with more scholarly support than the Nicene Bible idea, but still quite fringe. The academy accepts the existence of a hamlet called Nazareth during the time of Christ's life, and there is direct archaeological support for it. It would have been quite small and inconsequential. Those fringe authors who reject its existence, unilaterally mythicists, attempt to raise questions and concerns with methodological minutiae in order to undermine that support. I don't buy what they're selling, though, and neither do any of my archaeologist friends and colleagues. It's size really has little bearing on anything, in my opinion.

(05-01-2014 09:10 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  For example:

Nazareth was a small and insignificant village during the period of Jesus. While the site was settled during the period 600-900 BCE, it was too small to be included in the list of settlements of the tribe of Zebulon (Joshua 19:10-16), which mentions twelve towns and six villages. Nazareth is not included among the 45 cities of the Galilee that were mentioned by Josephus, and her name is missing from the 63 towns in Galilee mentioned in the Talmud.

It is needless to say that the people of Judea had never heard of Nazareth.

That the people had never heard of it simply does not follow from its absence from Josephus' discussion of the topography. This is another example of extrapolating convictions about what should or would have been known or thought from the silence of the historical record.

(05-01-2014 09:10 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  And from this we understand the reason that Pontius Pilate decorates the cross with the sign "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" (John 19:19) - meaning that the "King of the Jews" is from "nowhere."

In order to explain where Nazareth was located, the Galileans had to explain that the village was near Gat-Hyefer (Jonah's hometown,Kings II 14:25), which could be seen from Nazareth. Archeological excavations conducted in Nazareth (by Bagati since 1955) show that Nazareth was a small agricultural village settled by a few dozen families.

The pottery remains testify to a continuous settlement during the period 600-900 BCE. After those years, there was a break in settlement until the year 200 BCE.

While Nazareth may have existed at Jesus' time, assuming that Jesus was truly a historic person, it would not have been more than a few houses with a dozen families. Just an unknown hamlet in backwater Galilee.

Not necessarily unknown, but certainly not prominent.

(05-01-2014 09:10 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  Source:
http://www.inisrael.com/tour/nazareth/hi...

and

The excavations by Bagati from 1955 onwards showed that the site of Nazareth had been occupied from 600-900 BC and that there was then a break until 200 BC. It's been continuously inhabited since then. In the First Century AD it was a tiny agricultural hamlet of only a dozen or so families at most. Cisterns and storage cellars carved into the chalk, along with grain storage bins, millstones and small oil mills dating from the First Century AD indicate it was a small settlement of farmers, though its proximity to Sepphoris meant some of its inhabitants may have worked there. If the detail that Joseph was a 'tekton' (the word can mean 'builder' rather than 'carpenter' per se) is historical he may have worked on the extensive building projects in the city at the time.

In 1962 archaeologists discovered a Third-Fourth Century marble tablet in Caesarea which lists the towns and villages to which refugee priests and levites went after the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD. Nazareth is included in the list.

thoughts? agreements/dissents?

I think the discussion of the archaeological data is accurate enough, although I disagree with the interpretation of the significance of Nazareth's size in the New Testament. That's reading an awful lot into it.

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05-01-2014, 09:30 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(05-01-2014 08:29 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(05-01-2014 07:56 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Where I come from, people with Masters degrees know the difference between "than" and "then".

Where I come from, people with master's degrees know that the "s" in "master's" is possessive. Smartass

I don' gots me one a dem dere thingies yet.
I doubt I will EVER learn possessives.
"It's" and "its" still gives me fits. Weeping
Poor HoC has to re-educate me on that every few months.

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05-01-2014, 09:56 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(05-01-2014 09:30 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I don' gots me one a dem dere thingies yet.

Are you working on a master's or are you still an undergrad?

(05-01-2014 09:30 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I doubt I will EVER learn possessives.
"It's" and "its" still gives me fits. Weeping
Poor HoC has to re-educate me on that every few months.

That one's just the reverse of normal possessives. I can understand that it might slip through the cracks, though. Sometimes we're writing the words as they sound in our head, not according to rules of grammar and syntax. I will on occasion misuse "their" and "they're" just because I'm writing quickly from the sounds in my head.

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05-01-2014, 10:05 AM
RE: Jesus myth
maklelan,

funny you mentioned having some archaeologist friends. My wife and I met two at our community garden spot, and quickly became friends. One has his master's and the other just a bachelor's degree. They have worked on digs all over the world, fascinating stories...alas, they are both currently unemployed and have been for some time. it seems that isn't the field to go into if one wants to have stable financial longevity. It really is sad because they are both brilliant men, very experienced, but getting in on a dig, and getting paid for it are long shots these days I gather.

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"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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05-01-2014, 10:17 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(05-01-2014 10:05 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  maklelan,

funny you mentioned having some archaeologist friends. My wife and I met two at our community garden spot, and quickly became friends. One has his master's and the other just a bachelor's degree. They have worked on digs all over the world, fascinating stories...alas, they are both currently unemployed and have been for some time. it seems that isn't the field to go into if one wants to have stable financial longevity. It really is sad because they are both brilliant men, very experienced, but getting in on a dig, and getting paid for it are long shots these days I gather.

Few people really get paid to go on digs. Most of the non-faculty people working on digs are volunteers or students paying their own way or just getting their travel/board costs covered. Locals who are responsible for the day-to-day upkeep of the site and the teams are generally paid, but not much. The professionals generally fund the excavations through government, university, or institutional grants and endowments. They generally get paid by their sponsoring institutions, and they will only spend a few weeks or a couple months actually excavating. The rest of the time they're back at school writing up reports, teaching, or doing other research.

It's a fun thing to do, but yes, the field is shrinking rapidly. I was lucky enough to get a full-time position doing translation while I'm working toward the PhD, so I'm financially secure no matter what happens. I have many friends with PhDs who have nothing else to do but adjunct or do a post-doc, neither of which pay living wages for anyone with a spouse or family. Either that or they wait tables, which I did for several years, or find some other job completely unrelated to their education.

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05-01-2014, 10:27 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(05-01-2014 10:17 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(05-01-2014 10:05 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  maklelan,

funny you mentioned having some archaeologist friends. My wife and I met two at our community garden spot, and quickly became friends. One has his master's and the other just a bachelor's degree. They have worked on digs all over the world, fascinating stories...alas, they are both currently unemployed and have been for some time. it seems that isn't the field to go into if one wants to have stable financial longevity. It really is sad because they are both brilliant men, very experienced, but getting in on a dig, and getting paid for it are long shots these days I gather.

Few people really get paid to go on digs. Most of the non-faculty people working on digs are volunteers or students paying their own way or just getting their travel/board costs covered. Locals who are responsible for the day-to-day upkeep of the site and the teams are generally paid, but not much. The professionals generally fund the excavations through government, university, or institutional grants and endowments. They generally get paid by their sponsoring institutions, and they will only spend a few weeks or a couple months actually excavating. The rest of the time they're back at school writing up reports, teaching, or doing other research.

It's a fun thing to do, but yes, the field is shrinking rapidly. I was lucky enough to get a full-time position doing translation while I'm working toward the PhD, so I'm financially secure no matter what happens. I have many friends with PhDs who have nothing else to do but adjunct or do a post-doc, neither of which pay living wages for anyone with a spouse or family. Either that or they wait tables, which I did for several years, or find some other job completely unrelated to their education.

which I think is a big problem for us, as the younger generation becomes more and more disenchanted with science, and the "thinking degrees", and turn to quick instant financial gratification degree paths like internet technology, web design etc....it doesn't bode well for the future...in my opinion.

"Belief is so often the death of reason" - Qyburn, Game of Thrones

"The Christian community continues to exist because the conclusions of the critical study of the Bible are largely withheld from them." -Hans Conzelmann (1915-1989)
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05-01-2014, 10:42 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(05-01-2014 10:27 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  which I think is a big problem for us, as the younger generation becomes more and more disenchanted with science, and the "thinking degrees", and turn to quick instant financial gratification degree paths like internet technology, web design etc....it doesn't bode well for the future...in my opinion.

That's definitely true. You can already see funding taken from the liberal arts and given to business and law programs, but they have problems of their own to deal with. Most universities have acknowledged the problems, and some, like Johns Hopkins, are even taking steps to resolve them, but there are others who are convinced things are moving in the right direction. Unsurprisingly, they're largely administrative leaders who are treating higher education like a business.

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05-01-2014, 10:48 AM
RE: Jesus myth
(05-01-2014 10:42 AM)maklelan Wrote:  
(05-01-2014 10:27 AM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  which I think is a big problem for us, as the younger generation becomes more and more disenchanted with science, and the "thinking degrees", and turn to quick instant financial gratification degree paths like internet technology, web design etc....it doesn't bode well for the future...in my opinion.

That's definitely true. You can already see funding taken from the liberal arts and given to business and law programs, but they have problems of their own to deal with. Most universities have acknowledged the problems, and some, like Johns Hopkins, are even taking steps to resolve them, but there are others who are convinced things are moving in the right direction. Unsurprisingly, they're largely administrative leaders who are treating higher education like a business.

This is why I support a socialist educational system. We as a society need more people to have higher education and the for profit model is working counter to our interests as a society. It is something to ponder on anyway now that Oregon is introducing a free in state college education.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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05-01-2014, 01:40 PM
RE: Jesus myth
Bucky,

The only time to EVER use "it's" is when you mean "it is" or "it has" ... That's it. Possessive is ALWAYS "its."

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05-01-2014, 02:20 PM
RE: Jesus myth
The fairly reputable xtian scholar, Stephan Pfann, did some excavations at "Nazareth" and found a single family farm in the late 90's. What has mainly been found are Kokh Tombs and the problem there is that would "Jews" have lived in a cemetery?

Such tombs would most likely have been associated with wealthy families from nearby Sepphoris. The question is when?

Such tombs date from about 150 BC in Jerusalem but Judaea did not conquer Galilee until roughly 100 BC and thus only held it for less than a century before the alleged "jesus" was born. The area would have been battled over extensively by rival claimants to the throne in the time preceding Pompey's conquest of the region by Rome c 64 BC.

Josephus tells us that Galilee was "forcibly converted" to Judaism by the Hasmoneans but such practices rarely work in the long term. When the Great Revolt broke out the good citizens of Sepphoris invited Josephus and his rebel army to go fuck itself and called on the Romans for protection.

That don't seem anywhere near as "Jewish" as the bible would have us believe.

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