Jesus myth
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05-01-2014, 04:52 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(05-01-2014 01:40 PM)WillHopp Wrote:  Bucky,

The only time to EVER use "it's" is when you mean "it is" or "it has" ... That's it. Possessive is ALWAYS "its."

Yeah. "Its" is consistent with hers, theirs, yours, & ours. Possessive pronouns march to their own drummer. Yes

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05-01-2014, 05:32 PM (This post was last modified: 05-01-2014 05:36 PM by goodwithoutgod.)
RE: Jesus myth
I just love you tube.

Why I Think Jesus Didn't Exist: A Historian Explains the Evidence

http://youtu.be/mwUZOZN-9dc

Why the Gospels Are Myth - A Lecture by Dr. Richard Carrier

http://youtu.be/ILldt2XHZw0

interesting. Thoughts/opinions?

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05-01-2014, 05:42 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(05-01-2014 02:20 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  The fairly reputable xtian scholar, Stephan Pfann, did some excavations at "Nazareth" and found a single family farm in the late 90's.

That wasn't the only feature, just the only dwelling actually found. Several other artifacts attest to inhabitation.

(05-01-2014 02:20 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  What has mainly been found are Kokh Tombs and the problem there is that would "Jews" have lived in a cemetery?

Yes. Burial practices are always found closely connected with Jewish settlements.

(05-01-2014 02:20 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Such tombs would most likely have been associated with wealthy families from nearby Sepphoris.

There's no reason to suppose that.

(05-01-2014 02:20 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  The question is when?

Such tombs date from about 150 BC in Jerusalem but Judaea did not conquer Galilee until roughly 100 BC and thus only held it for less than a century before the alleged "jesus" was born. The area would have been battled over extensively by rival claimants to the throne in the time preceding Pompey's conquest of the region by Rome c 64 BC.

Josephus tells us that Galilee was "forcibly converted" to Judaism by the Hasmoneans but such practices rarely work in the long term.

That's simply not true. Idumea was forcibly converted by John Hyrcanus, and there's no indication they ever rejected the new culture. The Jewish population in Judea after 70 CE was actually primarily Idumean.

(05-01-2014 02:20 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  When the Great Revolt broke out the good citizens of Sepphoris invited Josephus and his rebel army to go fuck itself and called on the Romans for protection.

Yeah, lots of populations did that. It was more a function of integration into the broader Greco-Roman culture than a measure of Jewishness.

(05-01-2014 02:20 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  That don't seem anywhere near as "Jewish" as the bible would have us believe.

This is a misrepresentation. Jewishness was not determined by whether or not people supported the revolt. Lots of Jews didn't, and particularly those in the diaspora (which was a larger population than that of Judea). You're buying into the rhetoric of first century Jewish literature, which, like sectarian literature today, asserts narrow and arbitrary ideological boundaries so as to distinguish themselves from others within the same group they don't like.

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05-01-2014, 05:44 PM (This post was last modified: 05-01-2014 05:48 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus myth
(05-01-2014 05:32 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I just love you tube.

Why I Think Jesus Didn't Exist: A Historian Explains the Evidence

http://youtu.be/mwUZOZN-9dc

Why the Gospels Are Myth - A Lecture by Dr. Richard Carrier

http://youtu.be/ILldt2XHZw0

interesting. Thoughts/opinions?

I think he has some interesting points, but I recently read that the "Philo's Jesus" (the cosmic deity) business is not really accurate, or at best an exaggeration. I'm investigating that. I may be wrong.

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05-01-2014, 05:47 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(05-01-2014 05:32 PM)goodwithoutgod Wrote:  I just love you tube.

Why I Think Jesus Didn't Exist: A Historian Explains the Evidence

http://youtu.be/mwUZOZN-9dc

Why the Gospels Are Myth - A Lecture by Dr. Richard Carrier

http://youtu.be/ILldt2XHZw0

interesting. Thoughts/opinions?

Carrier is one of the more militant mythicists, but his tendentiousness is staggering, particularly with things like his argument that "James, the brother of Jesus" is a cultic title that just means "James, a Christian." He's great when he sticks with his field (Classics), but his mythicism is overwrought.

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05-01-2014, 06:05 PM
RE: Jesus myth
Quote:"James, the brother of Jesus"


Yeah because those people never refer to themselves as "Brother This" or "Father That" or "Sister This" or "Mother That." That never happens does it?

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05-01-2014, 06:14 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(05-01-2014 06:05 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  
Quote:"James, the brother of Jesus"


Yeah because those people never refer to themselves as "Brother This" or "Father That" or "Sister This" or "Mother That." That never happens does it?

The thing is
1. Why would Josephus use that wording, if he was not a member of the "cult" himself ?
2. What OTHER way could he have stated it, that wouldn't have been ambiguous ?
3. Josephus was a client of Vespasian, and WANTED to show the Emperor was the messiah. If he had any way to say Jesus did not exist, why wouldn't he have used that information, more to his benefit ? Consider

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05-01-2014, 06:37 PM
RE: Jesus myth
(05-01-2014 06:05 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Yeah because those people never refer to themselves as "Brother This" or "Father That" or "Sister This" or "Mother That." That never happens does it?

That's one thing, but listing a series of personal names, and having a personal name with "the brother of Jesus" in apposition to it is not a title that is ever used anywhere in early Christianity. This is a completely and totally separate use of the word "brother."

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05-01-2014, 06:40 PM
RE: Jesus myth
Quote:Several other artifacts attest to inhabitation.

They have found one house - which could as easily date to the second century as the first aside from Pfann's farm structures. One family...or even a hamlet of several families...is enough to dismiss the NT accounts as bullshit. Remember that luke calls it a city - and even if polis does not mean city in the sense we now use the word - it sure as hell means something more than a hamlet. All those families would have been interrelated by marriage but we are supposed to believe that they were going to throw a kinsman off a cliff? Get real.

No one makes reference to any "Nazareth" including Josephus who campaigned extensively in the very area before defecting to the Romans. Yet, we are supposed to believe that this "miserable little hamlet" was at the very same time big enough to have a "synagogue." Sorry. This story is a load of crap.

Origen, living nearby in Caesarea, couldn't be bothered even looking for it and the Pilgrim of Bordeaux's account of his journey from Gaul all the way to Jerusalem and back without bothering to drop in on this supposedly important site.

I think you had better read Christina Moss' The Myth of Persecution and learn how all this xtian bullshit with pilgrimages and relics got started. Fascinating stuff.

Oh and the difference between Galilee and Idumea - aside from the relatively rich farmland and proximity to the trade routes of the former - was that Antipater and Herod were Idumeans and placed in control of Judaea by the Romans. You forgot that piece of the puzzle.

If Nazareth was such a going concern where are the roads, foundations, garbage middens, and all the other detritus that humans create whenever they live in a town? Xtians try to convert a couple of cisterns and silos into a town but it does not work archaeologically.

You are too desperate to believe.

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05-01-2014, 07:37 PM (This post was last modified: 05-01-2014 07:40 PM by Revenant77x.)
RE: Jesus myth
(05-01-2014 06:40 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  They have found one house - which could as easily date to the second century as the first aside from Pfann's farm structures.

A wall, a water collection system, several pieces of pottery, and other things have also been discovered that date to the early first century.

(05-01-2014 06:40 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  One family...or even a hamlet of several families...is enough to dismiss the NT accounts as bullshit.

I'm not really arguing that the NT account is accurate, but I will show you where you're a little mistaken in your rhetorical zeal.

(05-01-2014 06:40 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Remember that luke calls it a city - and even if polis does not mean city in the sense we now use the word - it sure as hell means something more than a hamlet.

Well, the word we'd expect in Classical Greek for a tiny little unwalled village would be χώμη, but in Koine Greek, and particularly in the New Testament, there's no sharp semantic distinction between the two; they're used interchangeably. When they are distinguished, the χώμη tends to be presented as a village subordinate to a neighboring city. In short, nothing about the use of the word πόλις necissarily conflicts with what the material remains show.

(05-01-2014 06:40 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  All those families would have been interrelated by marriage but we are supposed to believe that they were going to throw a kinsman off a cliff? Get real.

Here we're getting into narrative accuracy, and I don't really care that much about it, but, no, their interrelatedness is not a given, nor would kinsman status have been a deterrent if blasphemy had been perceived.

(05-01-2014 06:40 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  No one makes reference to any "Nazareth" including Josephus who campaigned extensively in the very area before defecting to the Romans.

Argument from silence. Lots of towns and villages aren't mentioned by Josephus.

(05-01-2014 06:40 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Yet, we are supposed to believe that this "miserable little hamlet" was at the very same time big enough to have a "synagogue." Sorry. This story is a load of crap.

A synagogue could have been just about any size. No, it's not necessarily a load of crap, particularly when the person making the argument doesn't appear to have much familiarity at all with first century Jewish cultural or material profiles.

(05-01-2014 06:40 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Origen, living nearby in Caesarea, couldn't be bothered even looking for it

Relevance?

(05-01-2014 06:40 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  and the Pilgrim of Bordeaux's account of his journey from Gaul all the way to Jerusalem and back without bothering to drop in on this supposedly important site.

Important according to whom?

(05-01-2014 06:40 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  I think you had better read Christina Moss' The Myth of Persecution and learn how all this xtian bullshit with pilgrimages and relics got started. Fascinating stuff.

First, it's Candida, not Christina. Second, I'm well, well aware of how this stuff all began, and it's not just because I read one of Candida's books. Lastly, leave the handing out of reading assignments to me.

(05-01-2014 06:40 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Oh and the difference between Galilee and Idumea - aside from the relatively rich farmland and proximity to the trade routes of the former - was that Antipater and Herod were Idumeans and placed in control of Judaea by the Romans. You forgot that piece of the puzzle.

I didn't forget it at all, it's just not relevant to whether or not forced Jewish conversion stuck. By the way, since you're presuming to lecture me on early Jewish history, under whom did you formally study it? I studied Jewish history in Palestine and in the Roman Diaspora under Fergus Millar and Martin Goodman at Oxford.

(05-01-2014 06:40 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  If Nazareth was such a going concern where are the roads, foundations, garbage middens, and all the other detritus that humans create whenever they live in a town?

I think you should learn a little more about how archaeology and the accident of preservation work.

(05-01-2014 06:40 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  Xtians try to convert a couple of cisterns and silos into a town but it does not work archaeologically.

Would you like to compare notes on under whom we each studied archaeology?

(05-01-2014 06:40 PM)Minimalist Wrote:  You are too desperate to believe.

Desperate for what?

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