Jesus never existed (video)
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16-12-2015, 10:34 AM
RE: Jesus never existed (video)
(12-12-2015 11:17 AM)Minimalist Wrote:  
(11-12-2015 10:08 PM)Vosur Wrote:  Well, similar arguments have been advanced by some Creationists, e.g. that most scientists support the theory of evolution because they would be fired or have their funding cut if they publicly came out against it or because it supports their atheistic world views. I don't think I need to point out why baseless conjecture like that is absurd.

And if creationists had any evidence that life began 6,000 years ago in the middle east they would have to be taken seriously.

The Historical Jesus crowd ( which cannot even agree among themselves what a "historical jesus" means has only their bible nonsense which, in case Ehrman forgot, he has spent 20 years trashing as heavily edited, error-ridden, crap. Still, having spent a career pissing in the pond he now wants to say "it's okay, I found a clean spot you can drink from." Thanks, Bart....but no sale.

We have nothing but the pious blather of early believers for their boy. Not a single Greco-Roman writer heard of any "jesus" until Celsus in the late 2d century.

You can ignore these facts if you wish - as obviously you do - but they remain.
First let me say I threw out Baby Jesus with the bath water long ago, but I see the facebook entries claiming that the same Josephus that most people state never mentioned Jesus in his work did. Does that make sense? Most people say Josephus never mentioned Jesus, but on Facebook I am reading that Josephus did mention Jesus throughout his writings. Not having access to Josephus to study for myself I always ask such people to send a quote. Never happens, but I feel that like the non existence of God cannot be proven can the nonmention of Jesus in Josephus be proven?
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16-12-2015, 12:29 PM (This post was last modified: 16-12-2015 01:10 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus never existed (video)
(16-12-2015 09:39 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Hahaha! That's a good one, Bucky. How can you even say that with a straight face? Did you already forget the part where you said that 99% of religious scholars never bothered to question the historicity of Christ (I noticed your edit, btw)? Laugh out load

I realize you are embarrased by having been caught lying about what I said, and are now desperate to try to regain ANY credibility here. I QUESTIONED whether your so-called consensus scholars ever really examined the question. If they did, they never wrote on the subject. YOU claimed "consensus" with NO evidence. You still have not posted any, or demonstrated IN ANY WAY that your "scholars" ever really examined the question, or were free to do so. First you reference two "atheists", and now somehow magically you have jumped to "hundreds of religious" scholars, claiming to know what they actually wrote about, and what their fields of expertise really is and was. You're whistling in the dark, and you know it.

My points stand. There is no consensus. You have demonstrated none, and whether there happened to be an actual person the myths of the gospels were loosely based on, it's irrelevant.

I said that having listened to Ehrman, I think his Fundamentalist past colors his views. One case. I don't think he has ever seriously considered that Jesus never existed. That is MY (legitimate) opinion. I don't care what yours is. You have never sat and listened to him. You are not an expert in the field AT ALL. You know no scholars in the field. There is no such thing as legitimate consensus here. You can figit around and try to deflect from that fact all you want. You did MISREPRESENT what I said.

I would not form an opinion about anyone else, unless I heard them speak on the question.

I never attempted to "invalidate" anything. (Another MISREPRESENTATION). I don't buy "consensus" *claims* without a lot more information. YOU never even bothered to tell us who you are even talking about in your "hundreds of Biblical scholars (the consensus in the academic community of Bible scholars)" nor can you even name 10. You also can give no assurance they are not saying what they do, due to pressure to tow the line from their employers, or that they are not inherently biased due to the conflict of interest their religious beliefs poses, consciously or unconsciously. There are not even "hundreds" of scholars that even write on the subject, or have the expertise, background, interest or freedom to even go down that road.

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16-12-2015, 12:54 PM
RE: Jesus never existed (video)
(16-12-2015 12:29 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(16-12-2015 09:39 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Hahaha! That's a good one, Bucky. How can you even say that with a straight face? Did you already forget the part where you said that 99% of religious scholars never bothered to question the historicity of Christ (I noticed your edit, btw)? Laugh out load

I realize you are embarrased by having been caught lying about what I said, and are now desperate to try to regain ANY credibility here. I never said that either. I QUESTIONED whether they did, and YOU claimed "consensus" with NO evidence. You still have not posted any, or demonstrated IN ANY WAY that your "scholars" ever really examined the question, or were free to do so.

My points stand.

I said that having listened to Ehrman, I think his Fundamentalist past colors his views. I don't think he has ever seriously considered that Jesus never existed. That is MY (legitimate) opinion. I don't care what yours is. You have never sat and listened to him. You are not an expert in the field AT ALL. You know no scholars in the field. There is no such thing as legitimate consensus here. You can figit around and try to deflect from that fact all you want. You did MISREPRESENT what I said.

I would not form an opinion about anyone else, unless I heard them speak on the question.

I never attempted to "invalidate" anything. (Another MISREPRESENTATION). YOU never even bothered to tell us who you are even talking about in your "hundreds of Biblical scholars (the consensus in the academic community of Bible scholars)" nor can you even name 10. You also can give no assurance they are not saying what they do, due to pressure to tow the line from their employers, or that they are not inherently biased due to the conflict of interest their religious beliefs poses, consciously or unconsciously. There are not even "hundreds" of scholars that even write on the subject, or have the expertise, background, interest or freedom to even go down that road.

I can name more than 10 of the people he may be talking about:

Michael Grant
Maurice Casey
Bart Ehrman
NT Wright
Marcus Borg
Geza Vermes
James Charlesworth
Robert Van Voorst
M A Powell
Jeffery Jay Lowder
Larry Hurtado
Craig Evans
J Paget
Edwin Judge
A.E. Harvey
EP Sanders

Again I'm not taking sides. In fact I think people like Price and Carrier make very good arguments against the historicity of Christ. And I think this debate on "consensus" is utter bullshit if the consensus can still be shown to be fallacious. I say enough with the "appeal to authority". Expert, schmexpert, if they're claiming Jesus existed, why and how? No, Vosur, I'm not a professional historian, but I'm not going to let that stop me from questioning the professional historians, even in the face of a consensus.

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16-12-2015, 01:18 PM (This post was last modified: 18-12-2015 12:40 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus never existed (video)
(16-12-2015 12:54 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  
(16-12-2015 12:29 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I realize you are embarrased by having been caught lying about what I said, and are now desperate to try to regain ANY credibility here. I never said that either. I QUESTIONED whether they did, and YOU claimed "consensus" with NO evidence. You still have not posted any, or demonstrated IN ANY WAY that your "scholars" ever really examined the question, or were free to do so.

My points stand.

I said that having listened to Ehrman, I think his Fundamentalist past colors his views. I don't think he has ever seriously considered that Jesus never existed. That is MY (legitimate) opinion. I don't care what yours is. You have never sat and listened to him. You are not an expert in the field AT ALL. You know no scholars in the field. There is no such thing as legitimate consensus here. You can figit around and try to deflect from that fact all you want. You did MISREPRESENT what I said.

I would not form an opinion about anyone else, unless I heard them speak on the question.

I never attempted to "invalidate" anything. (Another MISREPRESENTATION). YOU never even bothered to tell us who you are even talking about in your "hundreds of Biblical scholars (the consensus in the academic community of Bible scholars)" nor can you even name 10. You also can give no assurance they are not saying what they do, due to pressure to tow the line from their employers, or that they are not inherently biased due to the conflict of interest their religious beliefs poses, consciously or unconsciously. There are not even "hundreds" of scholars that even write on the subject, or have the expertise, background, interest or freedom to even go down that road.

I can name more than 10 of the people he may be talking about:

Michael Grant
Maurice Casey
Bart Ehrman
NT Wright
Marcus Borg
Geza Vermes
James Charlesworth
Robert Van Voorst
M A Powell
Jeffery Jay Lowder
Larry Hurtado
Craig Evans
J Paget
Edwin Judge
A.E. Harvey
EP Sanders

Again I'm not taking sides. In fact I think people like Price and Carrier make very good arguments against the historicity of Christ. And I think this debate on "consensus" is utter bullshit if the consensus can still be shown to be fallacious. I say enough with the "appeal to authority". Expert, schmexpert, if they're claiming Jesus existed, why and how? No, Vosur, I'm not a professional historian, but I'm not going to let that stop me from questioning the professional historians, even in the face of a consensus.


Exactly. A pastor.
Wiki: "Van Voorst's attitude towards the New Testament provoked divergent judgments. Thomas O'Loughlin, while concluding that the book was up-to-date and generally balanced, thought that an apologetic agenda had led Van Voorst to place the New Testament "almost outside of history" and to simplistically classify non-canonical Christian texts as "gnostic". On the other hand, some reviewers in Evangelical journals criticised what they saw as an over-skeptical attitude towards the New Testament."
http://nottingham.ac.uk/theology/people/....oloughlin

There is no "consensus". I reject the idea that someone who affirms they are a person of "faith" in Jesus can, in any way, be objective. It's an inherent conflict of interest.
There is no way professors in many institutions are even free to express the question, much less agree with it.
http://my.chicagotribune.com/#section/-1...-85340078/

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16-12-2015, 01:40 PM
RE: Jesus never existed (video)
(16-12-2015 12:29 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I realize you are embarrased by having been caught lying about what I said, and are now desperate to try to regain ANY credibility here.
Are you sure you aren't projecting your own insecurities on me? I certainly know myself better than you do and I certainly don't feel embarrassed at the moment. Or maybe you're just using that special psychic sense of yours again. You know, the one that allows you to judge whether or not someone is biased for life based on knowing a few things about their past. Consider

(16-12-2015 12:29 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I QUESTIONED whether your so-called consensus scholars ever really examined the question.
Are you an idiot or just a shameless liar, Bucky? Did you think that I wouldn't notice that you edited your post later on? Weren't you the one who just chastised me for "not standing by what I say"? Your hypocrisy really knows no bounds.

(16-12-2015 12:29 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  If they did, they never wrote on the subject. YOU claimed "consensus" with NO evidence. You still have not posted any, or demonstrated IN ANY WAY that your "scholars" ever really examined the question, or were free to do so. First you reference two "atheists", and now somehow magically you have jumped to "hundreds of religious" scholars, claiming to know what they actually wrote about, and what their fields of expertise really is and was. You're whistling in the dark, and you know it.

My points stand. There is no consensus. You have demonstrated none, and whether there happened to be an actual person the myths of the gospels were loosely based on, it's irrelevant.

I said that having listened to Ehrman, I think his Fundamentalist past colors his views. One case. I don't think he has ever seriously considered that Jesus never existed. That is MY (legitimate) opinion. I don't care what yours is. You have never sat and listened to him. You are not an expert in the field AT ALL. You know no scholars in the field. There is no such thing as legitimate consensus here. You can figit around and try to deflect from that fact all you want. You did MISREPRESENT what I said.

I would not form an opinion about anyone else, unless I heard them speak on the question.

I never attempted to "invalidate" anything. (Another MISREPRESENTATION). I don't buy "consensus" *claims* without a lot more information. YOU never even bothered to tell us who you are even talking about in your "hundreds of Biblical scholars (the consensus in the academic community of Bible scholars)" nor can you even name 10. You also can give no assurance they are not saying what they do, due to pressure to tow the line from their employers, or that they are not inherently biased due to the conflict of interest their religious beliefs poses, consciously or unconsciously. There are not even "hundreds" of scholars that even write on the subject, or have the expertise, background, interest or freedom to even go down that road.
I didn't name two "atheists", I named Bart Ehrman and Robert Price, both of whom are self-proclaimed atheists. Both of them are more qualified to speak on the matter of a consensus than you will ever be. And for the record, I have listened to Ehrman extensively on several occasions, most notably to his debate against William Lane Craig. You see, Bucky? Your opinions and assumptions are based on fantasies and little else. They are not in any way legitimate.

I can't change the fact that you are an arrogant and presumptuous man who thinks that he knows the views within an academic community better than the people who spent decades more time there than himself, but I can most definitely stop trying to waste my time trying to have a discussion with you. Your response to WalkingSnake proves my point better than I ever could. It's a complete waste of time to talk to you because even when somebody does provide you with what you're asking for, you only make a half-assed, lazy attempt at trying to dismiss it again. Instead of acknowledging the legitimacy of his list and making a genuine effort to understand the views of these ten people and why they hold them, you pick out a single name, point out that the man is a pastor and use that to dismiss his views without actually bothering to read his scholarly works for yourself. You're nothing but a pseudo-intellectual and I don't think that's going to change anytime soon.

Have fun jerking yourself off some more. Laugh out load

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16-12-2015, 04:18 PM (This post was last modified: 16-12-2015 09:55 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: Jesus never existed (video)
(16-12-2015 01:40 PM)Vosur Wrote:  You see, Bucky? Your opinions and assumptions are based on fantasies and little else. They are not in any way legitimate.

Yes dear, whatever you say. (But you forgot to actually debunk the ARGUMENTS. Taking lessons from Q or CoTW ?)

So NOW you changed your tune to actually have enough knowledge to be able to argue about this topic and tell me what is and is not legitimate. The fact is I have more education on the subject than you will ever have.

So you have no names other than your two.

The fact is it's YOU who have failed here. I stand by what I said about the invalidity of "consensus". You have made NO AGRUMENT actually for or against my actual argument. All you could do was try to misrepresent it.

I brought up a valid concern about ONE random name on the 10, and why SOMEONE ELSE had concerns about him.

You obviosly can't handle a frank discussion, and someone disagreeing with you. I don't care what you or anyone thinks. I have good reasons for my opinion on consensus. And in the end, it is irrelevant whether he existed or not. The Jesus of the gospels is a fraud.

You're entitled to your opinion. Just stop misrepresenting mine.
You misrepresented my post again.
I said "If on examination, the supposed "consensus" is 99% comprised of believers who never really even considered non-existence a real possibility, then it can be questioned and dismissed as not serious.
I stand by that.

But I get it. Anyone that calls you out is a "pseudo-intellectual".
Right.
Anyone reading this thread can see what you have done here.

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16-12-2015, 04:23 PM
RE: Jesus never existed (video)
Can't we debate the historicity of the Christ without name calling?

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17-12-2015, 02:09 AM
RE: Jesus never existed (video)
(16-12-2015 04:23 PM)WalkingSnake Wrote:  Can't we debate the historicity of the Christ without name calling?

never could when Free was in the discussion of it either, i suppose it cant be done.

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